95 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

ncknck wrote...

Dudes. I think you all got too much into philosophy.

Reapers are evil because they kill Asari/Humans.
Neutral Reapers would ignore our galaxy.
Good Reapers would help us.

It doesnt matter what their view point is. They are harmful from our viewpoint. And so must be dealt with.

tbh I think Vigil was wrong. Completely wrong. Overcoming a seemingly unstoppable foe is very dependant on understanding it. Otherwise your taking shots in the dark.

  

OFMG thank you  I almost threw my controller at the screen when VIgil feed my that ... understanding any enemy is the first step in defeating it. 

It matters to understand there view because then you can use that as means of exploiting a weakness. The Reapers have made  a living off people not understanding them enough to put a threat.

[xbeton0L]

@Sturmwulfe
It also applies when a civilization has been at war for so long, that war-oriented ideals become commonplace thought and, again, diversity stagnates. World War II spawned some of the worlds literally greatest minds, but simply because the proper tech, and the proper inspirations were there. There will always be great minds, it's just disappointing to know not every great mind will be able to excel to his or her fullest potential <- without being ostracized.

For another example, take tradition. <-basically anything that's set to cause the effect of repetition, will systematically induce restricted cultural dynamics. I'm sure there's some research I can do find studies on the effects of bacteria exposed to different environments, and their ability to adjust and changes in behaviour. What an organism is used to causes it to maintain and stick to it's regular functions as tightly as possible. When it's environment changes, that's when the magic starts! This is true for both hostile and symbiotic environments.

And as I travel expeditiously across the interwebz, the more this hypothesis seems to be more like theory. It's evident, that somehow people treat difference with rejection moreso than with inquisition, and even with many who propose an inquisition do so with adamant sarcasm, usually towards the betterment of a joke or meme. This even runs deeply into corporations, esp larger corps which have less flexible policies <- however this is countered with addendum to policy, micro-regulating every relevant detail until you have not more than an inch of breathing space or else risk starting a nuclear chain reaction of policy violations!

This still only addresses the complacency of the population, and not the conformity. People are still lacking a good will to change for better, or worse, or at all. If millions of people agree that the iPhone is one of the greatest phones, despite how many actual phones are better, millions more will do their duty to buy an iPhone. The human market thrives on this principle, of which I attribute to some natural psychological flaw. I also think this 'exploiting' of our human flaws, by humans ever still, is slowly domesticating the population. People, namely in America, are more eager to conform to a standard than a) risk being wrong, and risk being weird. They say nasty things on TV about weird people, say enough to host a theme on a TV talk show, Jerry Springer or Maury. Compared to the reapers, it's frighteningly similar.

They will not accept change, they will not negotiate, and they will do whatever it takes to prove their way is right. This sounds like the average human hearing a strange-but-new idea for the first time.

[Medhia Nox]

@xbetonOL - you a college student?

[eye basher]

I think the OP drank the cool-aid.

[Homey C-Dawg]

xbeton0L wrote...


...People, namely in America, are more eager to conform to a standard than a) risk being wrong, and risk being weird. They say nasty things on TV about weird people, say enough to host a theme on a TV talk show, Jerry Springer or Maury. Compared to the reapers, it's frighteningly similar.

I've certainly noticed this trend as well over the course of my life. I come accross a disturbingly large number of people both online and IRL who not only can't hardly think for themselves, but don't even want to either. They would rather be told what they're suppose to be doing rather than deciding things for themselves. Conforming seems to be a much stronger drive in society these days than it was when I was growing up.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The Reapers are evil.

/end

[Medhia Nox]

@Killjoy Cutter - they could be considered evil just for being the absolute worst part of the ME series.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

The reapers believe they're helping humanity ascend to a higher, and better, state of being by turning them into one. The reapers think what they're doing is pretty much an honour and what's supposed to be, I don't think good or evil or even morality comes into it. They just arrogantly think normal, organic life (and synthetic, for that matter) come and go, and aren't at the peak of existence.

It's kind of like getting accepted into an exclusive, super fancy club. Only if that club robbed you of your existence to turn you into something else.

Kind of like this. None of those quotes portray good or evil motives they aren't touting they're destroying us to prevent a greater evil or our destruction is necessary to X solar system to live and even if they said that it wouldn't matter to us either way because they're still the guys with the poison and we're still the bugs needing to be killed. From the bugs perspective these things deem us fit to die because of reasons X, Y, and Z from the poison sprayers perspective us dying is a necessity so his people can live longer.

I really don't know what civilizations will toss themselves to the reapers so that they can die to save, help, or extend the reapers or their acquaintances lives and if they did you'd have to question that civilizations mental health anyhow. The fights still going to be on weather the reapers think of themselves as good or evil doesn't matter they're still trying to kill and harvest 90% of the galaxy so they're still evil.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 09 janvier 2012 - 06:28 .

[Arkitekt]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

ncknck wrote...

Dudes. I think you all got too much into philosophy.

Reapers are evil because they kill Asari/Humans.
Neutral Reapers would ignore our galaxy.
Good Reapers would help us.

It doesnt matter what their view point is. They are harmful from our viewpoint. And so must be dealt with.

tbh I think Vigil was wrong. Completely wrong. Overcoming a seemingly unstoppable foe is very dependant on understanding it. Otherwise your taking shots in the dark.

  

OFMG thank you  I almost threw my controller at the screen when VIgil feed my that ... understanding any enemy is the first step in defeating it. 

It matters to understand there view because then you can use that as means of exploiting a weakness. The Reapers have made  a living off people not understanding them enough to put a threat.

Vigil is just trolling our arses, because he throws that line just after he tells you that "to stop [the cycles] you must understand, or you will make the same mistakes we did"

And then he tells you that you don't need to understand the reapers, only to kill them. I wanted to punch the writer when those lines were throwing themselves into my ears.

[xbeton0L]

I'd really like to write my own script, or nonetheless a storyline depicting a very complex and dynamic relationship with the Reapers, and understanding their reasoning behind everything besides simply being meticulous and/or difficult to get along and reason with.

Same as the example with us humans butchering cows for our evening steak meals, seeing them for our purposes only and not their own - the erroneous nature of taboo. And to see if there is even a chance to reason with them, if at all.

Might I add, I had to shake my head at the most recent installment of Mass Effect.

The contrast I'm drawing right now is that Reapers see organics as chaotic, and sythetics as contributing to the chaos originating from the organics. Therefore, in viable theory the Reapers see it most reasonable to consolidate all life and synthetics into a "safer" form - before irreversible damage is done to our galaxy. Which would be in the form of a Reaper.

I'd read somewhere about the original ending, which was about civilizations using mass effect fields and creating too much dark energy (As the result of using eezo) - that the Reapers were created to stop this "pollution" of the galaxy, and of course to reduce the overall amount of universe-wide pollution. (Dark energy supposedly stretches the extremes of spacetime.) Of course, this conclusion didn't vibe well with me because it resonates with similar ideals of 'Global Warming', which questions general morality of using resources that create byproducts - in 'moral' regards for the safety of the universe itself.

This of course is conclusive speculation of what we're limited to observing from Earth, that in some science book somewhere it is written as-if a matter of fact the universe is currently "expanding" towards infinity. But how do we know our observations themselves aren't unlike observing the validity/totality of all observable space in a room from the infinitesimal of a petri-dish? Counter-argument for the win.

But hey, this was a really good discussion. Would love to swing this thing over to the ME3 General discussion or whatnot. Thing is... I'm a horrible topic-opener.

[SynheKatze]

Posting on necro post.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Reapers are evil.

/end

?

I don't disagree with you. But, the ending to ME3 is pretty clear that the reapers really believe they are doing the RIGHT thing. Not that they're doing whats in their best interest or even that they think raising people is better than their current existence (what I thought was the angle Bioware were going with: trans-humanism is BAD). The Ghost is clear that hes doing this on behalf of the organic races to prevent them from letting the machines annialate all organic life since eventually the machines become better than the organics n war ensues. Its a Darwinian concept which underlies certain branches of AI thinking n popular movies; the reapers exist to prevent this inevitable process. Not the ending I expected or wanted but that IS what Bioware did and how they have determined to end it. We are told unequivicobly that the Reapers are good . Yup, ; like that. Not this .

I guess it would have helped if Bioware hadn't, you know, given two big examples of AI n organics working together and then asserted that this problem is innevitable n can only be solved by

[Icinix]

Reapers are remote controlled by the Starkid - they are tools. Neither good nor bad.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Icinix wrote...

Reapers are remote controlled by the Starkid - they are tools. Neither good nor bad.

Yes but they do his bidding n have insight on his plans if we believe the one on Rannoch. They are thus both aware and any entitiy controlling the reapers is of course responsible for their actions in all three games.

Has none of this been said like a thousand times? I mean I burnt myself out on this subject on my 40k forum on dakka dakka I always assumed that here of all places the debate would have been virtually crucified by now. 

[xbeton0L]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Reapers are evil.

/end

?

I don't disagree with you. But, the ending to ME3 is pretty clear that the reapers really believe they are doing the RIGHT thing. Not that they're doing whats in their best interest or even that they think raising people is better than their current existence (what I thought was the angle Bioware were going with: trans-humanism is BAD). The Ghost is clear that hes doing this on behalf of the organic races to prevent them from letting the machines annialate all organic life since eventually the machines become better than the organics n war ensues. Its a Darwinian concept which underlies certain branches of AI thinking n popular movies; the reapers exist to prevent this inevitable process. Not the ending I expected or wanted but that IS what Bioware did and how they have determined to end it. We are told unequivicobly that the Reapers are good . Yup, ; like that. Not this .

I guess it would have helped if Bioware hadn't, you know, given two big examples of AI n organics working together and then asserted that this problem is innevitable n can only be solved by

On point.

Though, it's as if Bioware slapped together several themes with differentiating concepts, and glued them together to create the story arc we have now. Yes, I'll admit it'd be much harder to explore every possible outcome from the past events of ME2, but there was only 1 (one!!!) story arc - which was about as alien as the ending which invalidated every Mass Effect fan's expectations. We honestly could have lived with two or three story arcs.

The potential dynamic of the Human-Reaper relationship is almost on par with how the Prothean viewed all other sentient life - greater than all else. So this preexistent concept of right-over-wrong (good/bad, etc) becomes irrelevant when perspective is introduced. And I thought a possible alternative to the Reapers existence could, if at all, be changed through reason - a dynamic that dared not be explored, even though the entire idea behind playing as Shepard was to convince through reasoning.

So honestly, considering outside of the many dead-end plot points (e.g. sacrificial deaths) there was lots of room to develop alternate endings with the Reapers, and perhaps even a better conclusion to be had with Cerberus/TIM.

[N7 samus aran]

I dont believe this myself locust from gears are evil and halo flood are evil now reapers are just gone too far they must be evil starchild doenst prof anything

[Jackums]

Good is a point of view, Anakin.

[Kataphrut]

Their creator certainly had good intentions, but the Reapers themselves are arrogant, uncaring and their methods for preserving the galaxy are far, far, far beyond redeemable.

[Gafiltha]

Reapers have never came across humans, we are arrogant and never wanna die by the hands of others. we will rebel!

[Elvis_Mazur]

They are not bad or good, they just have their reasons. That's all.