757 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Let's get the facts straight: Origin and Steam have NOTHING to do with competition, distribution, DRM or anything like it. The only purpose of both platforms is to suck as much money out of its users through (in)direct advertising. That's all.

I don't have any issue with that, but only if it's optional. Unfortunately it isn't so I don't use them.

I'm interested in (certain) games, which I happily pay for. But when I go out to buy a new shirt, I want a shirt, not a baseball cap, a sweater, or a pair of slippers. Is that too much to ask for? In the gaming industry it, unfortunately, is.

*Facepalm* No. If all you can see in Origin and Steam is an avenue for advertising then you clearly haven't grasped the true business functions of these systems.

Steam and Origin compete with one another due to third parties signing with them, there are also smaller digital download services. EA simply uses its IP as an exclusive to attract customers.

Distribution, to limit and minimize costs arising from distribution channels and retailers. Manufacturing costs are also minimised due to electronic transfer.

DRM games such as Deus Ex HR use Steam as a DRM even if they are not purchased through Steam, but in reatil hardcopy form. It is to decrease costs on the part of the developer and publisher so they do not have to develop their own form of DRM by bundling it with Steam or it could be done so as part of a distribution agreement with Valve or in the future Origin.

Advertising plays a role, but companies do not sell, they "distribute" there is rarely a fiscal transaction as they fall foul of governing legislation. In addition there are hardware compatibility scans which also take place, internal market and economics research also requires data on uptake and cost analysis which is presented to financial markets and investors in company fiscal statements.

These are a few off the top of my head, there are more, but they are paticular to each company. So no sucking money out of consumers via advertising is a tiny fraction of its function.

[Stanley Woo]

Wardka wrote...
Can we talk less about piracy and more about Origin, please? I don't want this thread to be locked again.

This. thank you.

[Fredvdp]

The demo doesn't require the Origin application if the Reckoning FAQ is to be believed. That's good news. I hope it's the same for the final release.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 11 janvier 2012 - 05:29 .

[Zargon VII]

I don't think Origin is about stopping piracy as much as it is about control. EA wants to destroy the very concept of ownership and Origin is the next step in the journey that began with online passes on the consoles. This is why they deactivate games if you don't use them for a while and why they turn off multiplayer servers way quicker than anyone else. They want games to be a service you have to keep paying for rather than something you actually own.
The deactivation thing would be enough for me to never use Origin, the unauthorized data mining is just the icing on a very bad cake.

[Hedera]

billy the squid wrote...

(really interesting, important, stuff)

What you said is exactly what answered the previous poster's ignorance regarding digital distribution services.  I'd like to point out that you used extremely technical language that I may have understood, but the average person reading these forums is unlikely to.  That said, great post.

[Thoth_Amon]

billy the squid wrote...
Steam and Origin compete with one another due to third parties signing with them, there are also smaller digital download services. EA simply uses its IP as an exclusive to attract customers.

False.  EA offers their games through every digital service but Steam.  A problem arose when Valve changed their DLC policy because there are many F2P games on Steam and the DLC needs to go through Steam.  A reasonable change since they're offering the full game for free on Steam servers and deserve a cut of the DLC for bandwith costs and giving the game a huge potential userbase.  EA doesn't like that and wants to sell DLC to the customer directly, which I can understand, but they also pulled some crap with the Signature Edtition of DA2 saying "a deal couldn't get done it time" aka "we want to flex our muscles in the digital market even though we've done nothing whatsoever to build and improve digital downloading of PC games."

Everything else you said is spot on and a great post.  Cheers.

[Oniyaki]

False.  EA offers their games through every digital service but Steam.  A problem arose when Valve changed their DLC policy because there are many F2P games on Steam and the DLC needs to go through Steam.  A reasonable change since they're offering the full game for free on Steam servers and deserve a cut of the DLC for bandwith costs and giving the game a huge potential userbase.  EA doesn't like that and wants to sell DLC to the customer directly, which I can understand, but they also pulled some crap with the Signature Edtition of DA2 saying "a deal couldn't get done it time" aka "we want to flex our muscles in the digital market even though we've done nothing whatsoever to build and improve digital downloading of PC games."

Everything else you said is spot on and a great post.  Cheers.

Like kids on a freakin' playground...

[Gotholhorakh]

Hrm. I'm afraid "Will I buy this game?" and "Can I play the SP game without Origin?" will have the same answer for me.

I could deal with signing up for Origin voluntarily myself as a "consenting adult", and I could totally understand requiring a patch delivery platform for online play, but I can't in good conscience endorse the requirement of it for everyone's single player use - at least until it backs off a bit in terms of having to sign privacy away.

Feels to me like that would be the wrong message to send, to just hand over my cash for something I'm not comfortable with.

Edit: fixed.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 11 janvier 2012 - 05:59 .

[Raygereio]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Hrm. I'm afraid "Will I buy this game?" and "Does the SP game require Origin?" will have the same answer for me.

Ya sure you don't mean "opposite" instead of "same"?

[billy the squid]

Thoth_Amon wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Steam and Origin compete with one another due to third parties signing with them, there are also smaller digital download services. EA simply uses its IP as an exclusive to attract customers.

False.  EA offers their games through every digital service but Steam.  A problem arose when Valve changed their DLC policy because there are many F2P games on Steam and the DLC needs to go through Steam.  A reasonable change since they're offering the full game for free on Steam servers and deserve a cut of the DLC for bandwith costs and giving the game a huge potential userbase.  EA doesn't like that and wants to sell DLC to the customer directly, which I can understand, but they also pulled some crap with the Signature Edtition of DA2 saying "a deal couldn't get done it time" aka "we want to flex our muscles in the digital market even though we've done nothing whatsoever to build and improve digital downloading of PC games."

Everything else you said is spot on and a great post.  Cheers.

Isn't ME3 CE exclusive to Origin? Or at least some of the PreOrder exclusives. Admitedly I haven't trawled through the internet to find every version they are selling and from what site they are selling it from.

Although I'm aware of the dispute between EA and Valve over DLC offerings. I'm not suprised EA has started to throw its weight around on the digital market, Steam is its biggest competitor it was inevitable that these two would come into competition. But EA also uses Origin to remove retailers from the equation, at the moment consoles are still reliant on them, but Like in the 1980's before retailers merged in huge retail giants product manufacturer's could enfore any term they wanted due to the fragmented nature of the retail market. in the last 20 odd years mergers and acquisition have formed giants which hold the retail market hostage.
 
I find it ironic that EA and others will complain that large retailers are so dominant and prevent disemination of products as they wish, when previously large manufacturers did exactly the same. It's just the companies like Game, Gamestop, Walmart etc are so big EA has no choice but to play on a similar level, at the moment at least.

I foresee in the future, EA will extend the use of Origin to consoles to bypass retailers even further. Maybe the next generation or consoles will se this happen, I don't think we may have too long to wait.

[Gotholhorakh]

Raygereio wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Hrm. I'm afraid "Will I buy this game?" and "Does the SP game require Origin?" will have the same answer for me.

Ya sure you don't mean "opposite" instead of "same"?

Ha, you're right, I don't know what happened there, sad thing is I actually noticed that before I posted it, but failed to fix it.

*coughnotsenilecough*

[Thoth_Amon]

billy the squid wrote...
Isn't ME3 CE exclusive to Origin? Or at least some of the PreOrder exclusives. Admitedly I haven't trawled through the internet to find every version they are selling and from what site they are selling it from.

Nope. 

http://www.direct2dr...dition-Download

http://www.gamestop....e-edition/98540

http://www.gamersgat...luxe-edition-uk


Seems like a bad business move but I guess the lost sales will be made up from brute forcing people into other services or the sacrifice is worth it for the long run?  I never understood why they wouldn't offer the game everywhere but give the absolute best deal, ie not some crappy dlc weapon, on their own service or why EA doesn't offer the DLC like Batman: Arkham City on Steam (you purchase a code on Steam which is redeemed at Games For Windows Live's marketplace).  You'd still be driving customers to your site, you're still making money and your product is in every possible outlet.

I don't think they'll ever get by with something like this on consoles.  No way MS and Sony will miss out on a piece of DLC sales.

[Gotholhorakh]

billy the squid wrote...

Distribution, to limit and minimize costs arising from distribution channels and retailers. Manufacturing costs are also minimised due to electronic transfer.

DRM games such as Deus Ex HR use Steam as a DRM even if they are not purchased through Steam, but in reatil hardcopy form. It is to decrease costs on the part of the developer and publisher so they do not have to develop their own form of DRM by bundling it with Steam or it could be done so as part of a distribution agreement with Valve or in the future Origin.

Advertising plays a role, but companies do not sell, they "distribute" there is rarely a fiscal transaction as they fall foul of governing legislation. In addition there are hardware compatibility scans which also take place, internal market and economics research also requires data on uptake and cost analysis which is presented to financial markets and investors in company fiscal statements.

These are a few off the top of my head, there are more, but they are paticular to each company. So no sucking money out of consumers via advertising is a tiny fraction of its function.

Steam is wonderful from the point of view of developers and publishers, and merely by bothering to strike a balance so it's not intrusive or inconvenient to people, it becomes something people don't mind so much.

They get the kind of DRM that almost entirely leaves them alone, stops them having to insert the DVD, and allows them to re-download if their media gets broken - as well as making manual patching of their online games a thing of the past. It becomes on the whole a net positive for most gamers.

Et voila, just by not being intrusive or (on balance) inconvenient people mostly don't care about Steam and buy stuff off it, etc.

You know the pathetic thing? It would take about ten minutes of work for someone to reposition Origin so it was in that same zone, and all the concerns of spyware would be gone, but nobody has the inclination or the understanding to do it.

[billy the squid]

cgrimm54 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

(really interesting, important, stuff)

What you said is exactly what answered the previous poster's ignorance regarding digital distribution services.  I'd like to point out that you used extremely technical language that I may have understood, but the average person reading these forums is unlikely to.  That said, great post.

I tend to use the technical language without noticing, a bad habit of mine. I imagine it's because I studied law, Socio Economic History and been dealing with financial markets, companies and markets since I was 18 so it just comes out as a sea of techno babble automatically. That post was actually light on the terminology.
 
Fear the wall of text....

(Some of my other posts on the locked big Origin thread must be mind numbing to read.)

[Shepard the Leper]

billy the squid wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Let's get the facts straight: Origin and Steam have NOTHING to do with competition, distribution, DRM or anything like it. The only purpose of both platforms is to suck as much money out of its users through (in)direct advertising. That's all.

I don't have any issue with that, but only if it's optional. Unfortunately it isn't so I don't use them.

I'm interested in (certain) games, which I happily pay for. But when I go out to buy a new shirt, I want a shirt, not a baseball cap, a sweater, or a pair of slippers. Is that too much to ask for? In the gaming industry it, unfortunately, is.

*Facepalm* No. If all you can see in Origin and Steam is an avenue for advertising then you clearly haven't grasped the true business functions of these systems.

Steam and Origin compete with one another due to third parties signing with them, there are also smaller digital download services. EA simply uses its IP as an exclusive to attract customers.

Distribution, to limit and minimize costs arising from distribution channels and retailers. Manufacturing costs are also minimised due to electronic transfer.

DRM games such as Deus Ex HR use Steam as a DRM even if they are not purchased through Steam, but in reatil hardcopy form. It is to decrease costs on the part of the developer and publisher so they do not have to develop their own form of DRM by bundling it with Steam or it could be done so as part of a distribution agreement with Valve or in the future Origin.

Advertising plays a role, but companies do not sell, they "distribute" there is rarely a fiscal transaction as they fall foul of governing legislation. In addition there are hardware compatibility scans which also take place, internal market and economics research also requires data on uptake and cost analysis which is presented to financial markets and investors in company fiscal statements.

These are a few off the top of my head, there are more, but they are paticular to each company. So no sucking money out of consumers via advertising is a tiny fraction of its function.

What competition are you talking about? Do you even understand what competition means? It's about choice, and both Origin and Steam don't have a choice - you are forced to install their system one way or the other. Forcing thrid party software upon customers has NOTHING to do with competition (it's in fact the complete opposite).

Distribution is also a farce. It would only be a distribution platform if it wasn't required to play. It's FORCED upon everyone including those who've used a different distribution channel.

DRM has and will never work - that's a simple fact. Ironically, the CEO of Valve has stated that the only way to combat piracy is to make it worthwhile to purchase a legit copy. Defensive mechanisms (like DRM) have little to no purpose at best and more likely reduce sales (like Ubisoft). Please explain to me why you believe in something Valve has dismissed already.

Advertising is everything. I hope you're familiar with Google - they make all their money through advertisement. The key difference is; Google doesn't force anything on anyone, they try to make products people WANT to use. Origin and Steam are forced upon us, and, if what you say is true, why are games ALWAYS more expensive to buy on Steam and/or Origin compared to "normal" retailers? Wouldn't it be logical to be cheaper (where's the "competition")? They don't need to produce discs, cases, manuals and ship the lot all over the world.
Why is it that when I upload videos to YT (owned by google) I have the option to share in some of the advertising revenue? Wouldn't it make sense that when we use Origin or Steam, we gain something from it? Like reduced prices or whatever. Valve and EA are making money with their systems to spy upon us and sell that info to the highest bidder after all - it's win-win from their perspective, and lose-lose for everyone else.

Origin and Steam are platforms for EA and Valve to advertise their products forcefully; and to aquire additional data which they can either use themselves or sell to other parties. To suggest otherwise is silly, it's in EA's goddamn EULA for Christ's sake.

[Feanor_II]

Why? Why? Why? I only ask WHY it takes so long to get an answer? As other people have said TOR and BF3 players received their answer in a much shorter time......

I appreciate Mr. Priestly cooperation with this subject...... But how long has been since we first asked about Origin/ME3?

[outlaw1109]

Eventually, I think alot of the larger publishers are going to create their own versions of steam.

Which means, if you want to continue to play these games, you will probably have to have multiple DRM's in place. Sadly, even though I tried to keep my ME games away from Origin, now that I have BF3 installed (which requires Origin) it seems to have soaked up all of the EA games I have on my PC.

But I like Origin's plain interface. When I open it, I get a list of the games registered to my account...no ads or "news" like with steam. I *can* go see ads or news by clicking on a tab, but it doesn't just pop up.

Also, I really doubt EA has any interest in any of my personal information. IF they're using Origin to data mine my PC, what's going to happen? Someone could hack their network and then use it to access my porn subs?

I get that many people store really important information on their computer...I'm not sure what classifies as "Real Important" or even what information they're talking about. The most that these publishers care about is survey data on your habits...like your own virtual stalker, but if it means they're going to make games based on what I prefer, then GO AHEAD. (Also, they don't need a DRM to do that, but anywho...)
I want them to know my preferences. Maybe, just maybe, they'll use my habits to create Dragon Age Origins 2, featuring the voice of my favorite porn star....or, maybe, just maybe, they're watching me play Solitaire and will send me some helpful advice (message from EA.com: play the black Jack on the red Queen, LOL).

If they really wanted what's on your PC, the could probably just ask Microsoft for access anyway...unless your on Linux. if so, good for you.

[Thoth_Amon]

Shepard the Leper wrote...
Advertising is everything. I hope you're familiar with Google - they make all their money through advertisement. The key difference is; Google doesn't force anything on anyone, they try to make products people WANT to use. Origin and Steam are forced upon us, and, if what you say is true, why are games ALWAYS more expensive to buy on Steam and/or Origin compared to "normal" retailers? Wouldn't it be logical to be cheaper (where's the "competition")? They don't need to produce discs, cases, manuals and ship the lot all over the world.
Why is it that when I upload videos to YT (owned by google) I have the option to share in some of the advertising revenue? Wouldn't it make sense that when we use Origin or Steam, we gain something from it? Like reduced prices or whatever. Valve and EA are making money with their systems to spy upon us and sell that info to the highest bidder after all - it's win-win from their perspective, and lose-lose for everyone else.

Origin and Steam are platforms for EA and Valve to advertise their products forcefully; and to aquire additional data which they can either use themselves or sell to other parties. To suggest otherwise is silly, it's in EA's goddamn EULA for Christ's sake.

Uh, I think you've never, ever used Steam.  Steam/Valve doesn't set prices, publishers do.  They have a Winter and Summer sale with many games 75% off and hundreds of daily deals through out the year.  That is a benefit of using Steam.  While my PC is quite expensive, I've probably saved more money from buying games on sale via Steam than I ever would buying games for consoles.  Less than a quarter of the games I have on my 150+ Steam game library were bought at full price.  

Steam doesn't advertise their products forcefully, unless it's a new release, and right now you see Trine, Dungeon Defenders, Saint's Row The Third, The Darkness II pre-order, Assassin's Creed: Revelations, Skyrim, Call of Duty: MW3, Q.U.B.E., Batman: Arkham City, and more all getting top billing when the homepage first loads up.  I literally have to click and search the Top Sellers list to find a Valve game.  I'd also like for you to find me a "normal" retailer that will sell me a hard copy of King Arthur II: The Roleplaying War game for $35.99 and also allows me to play the Prologue because I pre-ordered the game.  

Nice logic you got going there, bub.  

[billy the squid]

Thoth_Amon wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
Isn't ME3 CE exclusive to Origin? Or at least some of the PreOrder exclusives. Admitedly I haven't trawled through the internet to find every version they are selling and from what site they are selling it from.

Nope. 

http://www.direct2dr...dition-Download

http://www.gamestop....e-edition/98540

http://www.gamersgat...luxe-edition-uk


Seems like a bad business move but I guess the lost sales will be made up from brute forcing people into other services or the sacrifice is worth it for the long run?  I never understood why they wouldn't offer the game everywhere but give the absolute best deal, ie not some crappy dlc weapon, on their own service or why EA doesn't offer the DLC like Batman: Arkham City on Steam (you purchase a code on Steam which is redeemed at Games For Windows Live's marketplace).  You'd still be driving customers to your site, you're still making money and your product is in every possible outlet.

I don't think they'll ever get by with something like this on consoles.  No way MS and Sony will miss out on a piece of DLC sales.

I think it's more an exclusivity idea. Make this Copy more limited and people will want it more, I can't remember the economics term off the top of my head, but it also plays part of the marketing. Large retailers will also pay or sign preferential contract deals to ensure exclusive content. So it's a mix of economics, contract law and marketing. I won't go into detail because I will drive everyone crazy.

In comparison Rock steady has done something that set them apart, same with The Witcher 2 offering all DLC free and all previous retailer exclusive DLC to everyone. It sets them apart from the mass of other publishers and developers who come across as misers trying to "nickle and dime." consumers with micro transactions.

It's a clever tactic to make them differentiate themselves in the eyes of consumers, it's also worked quite well I think.

As to the extension of Origin onto consoles, Royalty payments would be levied on them by MS, but considering downloads are aleady present on Xbox and PS3 it's not a huge leap to see Origin offering it's products via Xbox live or a modified version of Origin, with MS taking a cut of the sales from any transactions taking place.

[outlaw1109]

[quote]Shepard the Leper wrote...

*snipped other quotes*
What competition are you talking about? Do you even understand what competition means? It's about choice, and both Origin and Steam don't have a choice - you are forced to install their system one way or the other. Forcing thrid party software upon customers has NOTHING to do with competition (it's in fact the complete opposite).

Advertising is everything. I hope you're familiar with Google - they make all their money through advertisement. The key difference is; Google doesn't force anything on anyone, they try to make products people WANT to use. Origin and Steam are forced upon us, and, if what you say is true, why are games ALWAYS more expensive to buy on Steam and/or Origin compared to "normal" retailers? Wouldn't it be logical to be cheaper (where's the "competition")? They don't need to produce discs, cases, manuals and ship the lot all over the world.
Why is it that when I upload videos to YT (owned by google) I have the option to share in some of the advertising revenue? Wouldn't it make sense that when we use Origin or Steam, we gain something from it? Like reduced prices or whatever. Valve and EA are making money with their systems to spy upon us and sell that info to the highest bidder after all - it's win-win from their perspective, and lose-lose for everyone else.

Origin and Steam are platforms for EA and Valve to advertise their products forcefully; and to aquire additional data which they can either use themselves or sell to other parties. To suggest otherwise is silly, it's in EA's goddamn EULA for Christ's sake.[/quote]

Just a note, I believe the mention of competition is about Origin being a competitor of Steam.  Since EA and valve are competitors...ergo competition...  They want to grab on to other game developers/publishers to release their games on Origin...also, while I havent really looked into Origin too much, I know that Steam often offers incredibly CHEAP discounts on games...I have an extensive library of games that I would never have bought otherwise.  Some games go on sale in Steam before the price drops in local stores...

[quote] Edit
Thoth_Amon 'd me...

Modifié par outlaw1109, 11 janvier 2012 - 06:35 .

[Thoth_Amon]

billy the squid wrote...

I think it's more an exclusivity idea. Make this Copy more limited and people will want it more, I can't remember the economics term off the top of my head, but it also plays part of the marketing. Large retailers will also pay or sign preferential contract deals to ensure exclusive content. So it's a mix of economics, contract law and marketing. I won't go into detail because I will drive everyone crazy.

No doubt.  I'm sure Direct2Drive and the others bent over backwards to get Battlefield 3 and Mass Effect 3 on their services.  I'd certainly be using one of those if they weren't all region locked for me.  As of right now, my only option for a digital copy of ME3 is Origin and I'm not even sure that is completely possible.  

[Thoth_Amon]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Edit
Thoth_Amon 'd me...

One more thing about Steam getting forced on people from non-Valve games, Valve offers Steamworks for free to every publisher/studio.  If you have a bone to pick with anyone, take it up with that particular game's studio and publisher.

I would definitely use Origin if the datamining was optional (like Steam) and they offered me some incentive besides exclusive titles.  Improve the client, add some value and compelling reasons for me to use it and I would.  As of right now, they don't. 

Modifié par Thoth_Amon, 11 janvier 2012 - 06:44 .

[Dovahzaan]

So Chris, can we expect an answer this week?

[Feanor_II]

The game will be released in two months..... I really can't believe that nothing has been decided about this!

[Aquemin1]

if we all just dont buy the games that are not available via other platforms, then origin will face a slow but necessary death. EA doesnt care if some people dont except origin. They care about the dumb people who do except everything you throw at them. This is the group they want on their platform and no where else.

I really dont understand why gamers dont see the big picture. Somebody already mentioned it in this threat, that if every publisher would start doing this, you end up wiht numerous platform and friends all over the place.

This morning I was actually going to pre-order ME3 but the only place I could buy it was origin. HOW LAME! EA must really think that the whole world is as dumb as an average american. They should really hire some more gamer and less business men wit lame ass ties and big lease car.