366 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I like the story in DA2. It is as old as the story in DAO. DA2 is rags to riches. DAO is defeat the big evil. Standard fanasty stories.

To be fair, the story of DA2 is rags to riches... to psychic detective... to police officer... back to rags again.

Act 1 (get money), Act 2 (attempt to divine why the Qunari are there), Act 3 (take sides and put down a rebellion) and the conclusion (on the run).

That's why the story doesn't really work for me. Because it doesn't have an identity of what it wanted, other than to say at some point it started the Mage Templar War. That seemed to be the goal going into the game and they just wanted a reason for that to happen, so they started coming up with pieces to a puzzle only they could see fit into place.

[Elhanan]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, the story of DA2 is rags to riches... to psychic detective... to police officer... back to rags again.

Act 1 (get money), Act 2 (attempt to divine why the Qunari are there), Act 3 (take sides and put down a rebellion) and the conclusion (on the run).

That's why the story doesn't really work for me. Because it doesn't have an identity of what it wanted, other than to say at some point it started the Mage Templar War. That seemed to be the goal going into the game and they just wanted a reason for that to happen, so they started coming up with pieces to a puzzle only they could see fit into place.

Does not seem fair to me....

Act 1 - raising funds for excursion, learn lay of land, intro to many other characters and plot devices. And finally, the excursion itself.

Act 2 - Qunari confrontations, further character development, and establish strong para-normal appeal of Kirkwall.

Act 3 - character and para-normal reveals, Civil War, and departure from Kirkwall..

If by 'they', you mean Bioware, then they were not the only ones to see such pieces fit into place, but some Players as well; perhaps those that liked the game.

[philippe willaume]

@Elhanan
No you are right, it is not fair in fact fast Jimmy is way to moderate.
The story of DA:2, like DA:2 in general is good a good concept.
That being it really is borderline of demagogic to say that people did not like the game hence they did not like the story.


Act-I
You raising money for the expedition that will really make actIII happens, the background (IE side quests) is setting the mage-templar tension.

Act-II the Quun and the Divine with a little bit more of the templar-mage in the back ground as well as actIII getting ready.
Up there the story and game play are reasonably well integrated.
Regardless of how th events turns out you and your character had a good shot at making the story goes the way you would have liked to.


Act III is really when all falls apart Kirkwall and the story. In fact for me this is really were DA:2 fall apart
It should have been the mage vs templar resolution and the tying up of the act I expedition. I was hoping for a big cake
Unfortunately I have the impression that instead I got a half backed cookie rammed down my throat.

anders revelation
That is WTF soap grade material of Tu quoque fili mi/ καὶ σὺ τέκνον
It had the same effect on me as if he told me that he was going to storm Windsor castle and bludgeon HRH corgies with overripe bananas.

M and O lamely flipping regardless which side you take
Come on seriously. At no time during ACTI or II did M gave us the impression that she was anything but a Schizophrenic paranoiac and as for O well going massey fergusson when there are only allies around and we are winning well good going dude. May be it is a magic thing and Anders was contagious

Ancient evil responsible of all that
Good I got myself worried I though it was something they ate and all in Kirkwall were going to dies.

The team disaband.
Wait a minute what happen to the mages and the templar in Kirkwall, Of course flipping of course I expect the event in the town to shake the world. A religious institution blows up, the mage templar onslaught yes a few neighboring towns migh raise and interrogating eyebrow especially if they have a chantry, mages and templar.

As well what happen to Kirkwall?
May be it will be a DLC and that is valid complaint

In fact ACTIII leaves impression that Hawke did not really gives a rats arse about what happen nor did he/she get out of bed during those 3 years.
I am not asking to change the way the story goes, but at least give us the impression that the char tried like in actII.

Phil

[Elhanan]

I see flaws in the presentation of O, but the connection of M to the tainted statue was connected well enough for me. Anders was also fairly well submitted, esp if one examines his motives closely within the presented dialogue. If one had blind trust, then perhaps being blind-sided is not too surprising after all.

Personally, I am fine with being given pieces of a puzzle, and not always being able to see the picture until completed. Maybe a bit more could have been done with some characters and the shredded Veil connection, but I also tire of obvious, heavy handed plots that are completely revealed in trailers, previews, and sales descriptions.

[philippe willaume]

Elhanan wrote...

I see flaws in the presentation of O, but the connection of M to the tainted statue was connected well enough for me. Anders was also fairly well submitted, esp if one examines his motives closely within the presented dialogue. If one had blind trust, then perhaps being blind-sided is not too surprising after all.

Personally, I am fine with being given pieces of a puzzle, and not always being able to see the picture until completed. Maybe a bit more could have been done with some characters and the shredded Veil connection, but I also tire of obvious, heavy handed plots that are completely revealed in trailers, previews, and sales descriptions.

Hello
You are not wrong, and that is part of DA:2 "problem". It is not a fundamental wrong it is too much askance in several domains that it starts to mar the experiences

To be perfectly fair, I totally agree with the heavy handed plot, trailer, reviews marketing spins and sales description.

From a Role playing stand point Anders in DA:2 has some massive issues, just compare it with Isabella.
I am  not talking about the net result but how it played out and how it was presented to you.
We could argue about the thickness of the ropes when Isabella disappear from your group when you are about to enter the Quunary quarters. But her stories with the Quun works well and it leaves you with the impression that, as hawke you have done what you could. (You can ask Isabella and she will give you the elbow but at least you can ask)
 
However with Anders, it is a tad different, he is rabidly anti-templar and you could see his antagonism to the chantry in act one.  And there is hint in act two with his “I need help with this” mission.
Again the default course of action is perfectly ok for the rivalry or the neither options.
If Hawke has been friend or worse lover with Anders, that just too much to suspend disbelief. The explanation after wards sound just hollow and fell like two fingers at your immersion (not that the said explanation don’t make sense)
 
Anders “I did not tell you because you would not understand. “
Hawke “Pweeeeee, it alright darling is though you were having an affair, you know with all those late night for the last tree years”
 
I am happy as well not have all the answers, but made it clear to me as why when Hawke is finishing in a position where he or she can shape things. What ever is left of the templar and possibly the mage are deferring to you as the end of ACTIII.
Obviously hawke buggerd off before the Seeker came about. but Maker or not, they don’t do mass teleportation.

for M the connection with the statue is king of nice but really it does not affect interacting with her in the whole game. 

phil

[Elhanan]

philippe willaume wrote.... *snip*
 
However with Anders, it is a tad different, he is rabidly anti-templar and you could see his antagonism to the chantry in act one.  And there is hint in act two with his “I need help with this” mission.
Again the default course of action is perfectly ok for the rivalry or the neither options.
If Hawke has been friend or worse lover with Anders, that just too much to suspend disbelief. The explanation after wards sound just hollow and fell like two fingers at your immersion (not that the said explanation don’t make sense)
 
Anders “I did not tell you because you would not understand. “
Hawke “Pweeeeee, it alright darling is though you were having an affair, you know with all those late night for the last tree years” .... *snip*

While I have been friends with Anders, I have not been in a romance with him, so I watched the following and was not disappointed: 



The first part of this vid is even more revealing when one refuses to give into Ander's request without an explantion. All in all, it is a fine piece of writing. IMO.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Dragon Age 2 is an embarrassment.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Joy Divison wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Choice is icing on a cake within a RPG

I could not disagree more.

*spits coke*

Just... WTF

[Teddie Sage]

Fisto, it's all about perspective. You don't have to agree to understand that everyone here has a different opinion.

Edit: Oh, nevermind. I think s/he meant it needs to be an integral part of the game, not just a cover.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 29 février 2012 - 07:29 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Elhanan wrote...

I see flaws in the presentation of O, but the connection of M to the tainted statue was connected well enough for me. Anders was also fairly well submitted, esp if one examines his motives closely within the presented dialogue. If one had blind trust, then perhaps being blind-sided is not too surprising after all.

Personally, I am fine with being given pieces of a puzzle, and not always being able to see the picture until completed. Maybe a bit more could have been done with some characters and the shredded Veil connection, but I also tire of obvious, heavy handed plots that are completely revealed in trailers, previews, and sales descriptions.

I don't mind having a story not spelled out for me and to put the pieces together. I was actually looking forward to DA2 while playing it, trying to figure out where the heck they were trying to go with the overall story. 

But, to me, starting Act 3 and seeing the setup was like completing the puzzle and the picture being a big middle finger. It said 'Yeah, we're being original and not giving you a Big Bad or ancient evil to fight. We're going tackle a deep, political endgame... by giving you the exact same decision we already gave you in the Broken Tower quest in DAO. oh? And, icing on the cake? Turns out all this IS caused by an ancient evil anyway, so jokes on you player!'

Thats just how I feel, of course 

[Elhanan]

@ Fast Jimmy - The Ancient Evil was not the cause, but heightened and manipulated the personality of the one in possession of the icon. It increased the greed of one NPC and helped make them more paranoid, and did much the same for M later.

For me, it was like seeing the same kind of end result that was occuring in Ander's thanks to Justice/ Vengeance; sort of two bookends of possession.

[HiroVoid]

Elhanan wrote...

@ Fast Jimmy - The Ancient Evil was not the cause, but heightened and manipulated the personality of the one in possession of the icon. It increased the greed of one NPC and helped make them more paranoid, and did much the same for M later.

For me, it was like seeing the same kind of end result that was occuring in Ander's thanks to Justice/ Vengeance; sort of two bookends of possession.

Then why was the ancient evil even needed then?

[thats1evildude]

HiroVoid wrote...

Then why was the ancient evil even needed then?

1) It enables Meredith to be an actual end boss capable of taking on your entire party, because without it Meredith is simply a skilled templar, and 2) it goes hand-in-hand with a theme of the Dragon Age series in general: that your actions can have unintended consequences.

[Fast Jimmy]

thats1evildude wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Then why was the ancient evil even needed then?

1) It enables Meredith to be an actual end boss capable of taking on your entire party, because without it Meredith is simply a skilled templar, and 2) it goes hand-in-hand with a theme of the Dragon Age series in general: that your actions can have unintended consequences.

1) Agreed, something was needed other than just another normal human, as Hawke killed hundreds of those. But that's why the Ancient Evil is ever used - it has to be unequivocally evil and really powerful. It was a standard shtick, but is touted as high art by many, for some reason. 

2) While I think that is a nice theme... when has it been a reoccurring one in DA?

[thats1evildude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

2) While I think that is a nice theme... when has it been a reoccurring one in DA?

The first game offered numerous quests that ran along that theme, including the Summon Sciences quest that in turn produced (surprise, surprise) Unintended Consequences. Just about everything you did in Orzammar turned out to be the wrong thing.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 février 2012 - 09:38 .

[Fast Jimmy]

thats1evildude wrote...

The first game offered numerous quests that ran along that theme, including the Summon Sciences quest that in turn produced (surprise, surprise) Unintended Consequences. Just about everything you did in Orzammar turned out to be the wrong thing.

Well, while I agree that the Summoning Sciences quest was exactly a case of Unintended Consequences, I don't think one side quest is really indicative of an overall, reoccuring theme. But I agree it does fit in the Dragon Age world, lore especially with the discovery of the Black City.

I would say I didn't do a single thing wrong in Orzamar. I wiped out a brutal illegal Carta. I gave Oghren a reason to leave his home, where he had no clan and no place other than underneath a barstool. I shook up the Shaperate's policies and gave rise to a disenfranchised noble. I reunited a outcast noble and her duster son with her family, where she would be better taken care of.

And I made sure Bhelen was crowned king and removed any lingering opposition to his reign, including those at the Proving Grounds. Bhelen turned out to be exactly what I expected - a ruthless, cunning and radical leader who abolished many of the traditions and dogma that mired the Dwarven people into a slow suicide in generational measures. And I gave him the Anvil of the Void, which I knew he would use to make an army of iron soliders, at any cost neccessary. And he pushed back the Darkspawn, for the first time in centuries. That is my exact intended consequence - to give the dwarves a fighting chance in-between Blights. Anything after that is collateral damage, lives sacrificed on the smallest scale in comparisson to the Dwarves being slowly swallowed up by the Deep Roads.



But I guess that's a little off topic, isn't it?Point being I was 100 times over more invested in my DAO playthroughs, since they gave real options. Everything I just stated above was all optional, yet deeply affected the lives and the world I was playing in. And you and I could argue if this was the best course of action, and how the way YOU did it (which could be exceedingly different than what I just outlined above) was the better solution.

Contrast that to DA2. What choice did we get there? Is the Kirkwall at the end of your playthrough greatly different than the Kirkwall of mine? No. Its the exact same. I'd wager if we were both mages and wearing the Champion's armor set (one of the best in the game), we'd have trouble determining who was playing who's game. THAT'S bad.

[Elhanan]

Fast Jimmy wrote... *snip*

But I guess that's a little off topic, isn't it?Point being I was 100 times over more invested in my DAO playthroughs, since they gave real options. Everything I just stated above was all optional, yet deeply affected the lives and the world I was playing in. And you and I could argue if this was the best course of action, and how the way YOU did it (which could be exceedingly different than what I just outlined above) was the better solution.

Contrast that to DA2. What choice did we get there? Is the Kirkwall at the end of your playthrough greatly different than the Kirkwall of mine? No. Its the exact same. I'd wager if we were both mages and wearing the Champion's armor set (one of the best in the game), we'd have trouble determining who was playing who's game. THAT'S bad.

No; we would simply have a single tale that did not have the origins and options granted to us in the prequel. Bad is your opinion; not a fact.

And I believe my Mage was wearing the Robes of the Unblemished Cleanliness; a better Choice for my own play.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

2011 was a pretty damn good year for games for me overall.  With the likes of Sonic Generations, Tales of Xillia, Uncharted 3, Dark Souls, Ni no Kuni, Arkham City, Rayman Origins, Mortal Kombat, Alice: Madness Returns, Little Big Planet 2, InFamous 2, Deus Ex:Human Revolution, Saints Row: The Third, Shadows of the Damned, Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine, Catherine, El Shaddai, L.A Noire, Skyrim and many others I am forgetting at the moment. 


Out of all the games I bought in 2011 though, by FAR my favourite was Dragon Age 2.  I was actually afraid before it arrived that I would be disappointed by it because I was so in love with Origins but it was the complete opposite.  I played through the game 6 times in a row (now 9 times in total) and I have have not completed a second play through of any game this gen, no matter how much I loved it (the R&C Future games and Uncharted 1&2 are some examples of games I started again but never finished).  I ended up buying the game 4 times, twice on the PS3 and twice on the 360.  It was only my crappy old laptop that stopped me from buying the PC edition.  I hated all the negativity in the press and from the gaming public about DA2 because in my eyes, it did not deserve most of it.  Personally, I don't think the game should have been called "Dragon Age 2" as it is more like Dragon Age Gaiden to me.   I think that alot of the flack would have been lessened if it did not have that "2" in the title.  I especially hated the negative response to the all "bi"
romance options, but I would expect nothing less from todays gaming
crowd.


DA2 was far from perfect I know.  Did it have only 6 battle maps repeated over and over again through the whole game? Sure.  Did the last chapter feel like a rushed mess with 60% of the intended story missing?  Yes it did.  What made the game so special for me was the charcters and THAT is always the thing that makes a lasting impression on me in an RPG or any game in general, along with the story.  I know the overall story of DA2 was not fantastic on it's own, but there were so many memorable moments and quests that it didn't matter to me.  Although there was no Alistair or Morrigan in DA2, I still became very attached to some of them, most of all Anders.  I really wanted to play Ferris' romance storyline in one of my playthroughs but I loved the Anders one so much I never did. 


DA2 also ignited my love of BioWare and because of that, I bought the PC versions of DA:Origins, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR (LOVED it!  I wish I played the XBOX version for more than 5 minutes back in 2003, I didn't "get" the way "Western" RPGs played at that time) and the XBOX version of Jade Empire.  Although not directly related to BioWare, I also bought The Witcher and loved it too, even though it played like a dog on my laptop.  I also decided to try Oblivion which I only played for about 3 hours before turning it off for good.  Thank God I loved Skyrim!


So why am I writing all of this when nobody will care?  Simply because I want to let BioWare know how much I loved the game and how special it now is to me.  Although there were also many games I was extremely excited to get in 2011
such as Ni no Kuni, Tales of Xillia, Skyrim and Sonic Generations, one of the most exciting
moments of the year for me was downloading the first DLC pack which was
amazing, as was the second.  Dragon Age:Origins/DA2 are the only Western games to make it into my personal top 5 favourite games, and that has not changed since  December 1997 when Grandia was released for the Saturn!  Thank You BioWare for creating such amazing experiences for your fans, I hope you never change.

DA2 was your favorite game of 2011?  Then I'm sorry for you.  DA2 almost ended a 13 year relationship of unquestioned purchases of Bioware titles by me.  I'm waiting to see if ME3 can repair that rift.

[thats1evildude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I made sure Bhelen was crowned king and removed any lingering opposition to his reign, including those at the Proving Grounds. Bhelen turned out to be exactly what I expected - a ruthless, cunning and radical leader who abolished many of the traditions and dogma that mired the Dwarven people into a slow suicide in generational measures. And I gave him the Anvil of the Void, which I knew he would use to make an army of iron soliders, at any cost neccessary. And he pushed back the Darkspawn, for the first time in centuries. That is my exact intended consequence - to give the dwarves a fighting chance in-between Blights. Anything after that is collateral damage, lives sacrificed on the smallest scale in comparisson to the Dwarves being slowly swallowed up by the Deep Roads.

He would have pushed back the darkspawn without the Anvil. All you did was plunge Orzammar into yet another bloody civil war while facilitating the creation of a new slave race.

Orzammar is full of decisions that blow up in your face. Sleep with a noble hunter? You have a kid, who becomes casteless. Leave Dust Town by being recruited into the Grey Wardens? Leske becomes Jarvia's lieutenant and grows to hate you. Help start a Chantry? Brother Burkel gets killeHelp Dagna join the Circle? Strain relations between the Chantry and Orzammar. Support Harrowmont for the Throne? Exarcerbate the city's stagnation. Support Bhelen? Get Harrowmont AND HIS ENTIRE FAMILY killed. Preserve the Anvil? See above.

Myself, I rescued my bride from a rapacious noble and turned myself in for his murder. My actions resulted in turning Soris into a pariah and Arl Howe leading a Purge of the alienage. Origins kicked me in the balls over and over again. DA2 didn't let up the trend, and I doubt DA3 will either.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 mars 2012 - 12:06 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Yeah, its great, isn't it? Chaos, destruction and bastards. I love Orzammar. A city built on unforgiving cruelty, born of the unforgiving nature of the underground and the Deep Roads itself.

I like being able to pick my poison, though. That's why the kick in the groin of DA2 is unsatisfactory to me. Because I know exactly when the kick is going to come and who is going to do it, every play through of DA2. No variation, no choice. So I felt that the story was unfulfilling, the choice was non-existent, the action wasn't as engaging as a good action game, the RPG characteristics were too streamlined or hodge podge to appeal to my RPG purist side and the area was too small to feel like I could really explore.

That's why I like DAO over DA2. DAO did the things it did well AMAZINGLY well. The things DA2 did, they did middle of the road, in every direction. In my humblest of opinions (which I will defend until I run out of breath).

[Rorschachinstein]

Picking at the small flaws and people trying to defend it seems to be the consensus of this thread.


I generally liked it more than DAO. DA2 was harder on Nightmare for me then DAO. After finishing all the DLC leading up to Witch Hunt I was tearing through all the enemies and could take on the Vataarel on Nightmare singlehandedley with my Archer/Tank .

But to this day I still can't beat those two grueling fights in the "Tahrones Tomes" quest at the Xenebeck shrine and by the Dalish camp on Nightmare difficulty.

[philippe willaume]

Elhanan wrote...

philippe willaume wrote.... *snip*
 
However with Anders, it is a tad different, he is rabidly anti-templar and you could see his antagonism to the chantry in act one.  And there is hint in act two with his “I need help with this” mission.
Again the default course of action is perfectly ok for the rivalry or the neither options.
If Hawke has been friend or worse lover with Anders, that just too much to suspend disbelief. The explanation after wards sound just hollow and fell like two fingers at your immersion (not that the said explanation don’t make sense)
 
Anders “I did not tell you because you would not understand. “
Hawke “Pweeeeee, it alright darling is though you were having an affair, you know with all those late night for the last tree years” .... *snip*

While I have been friends with Anders, I have not been in a romance with him, so I watched the following and was not disappointed: 



The first part of this vid is even more revealing when one refuses to give into Ander's request without an explantion. All in all, it is a fine piece of writing. IMO.

Yes that is what I was referring to (sorry I wrote actII an it should have been actIII). I did not romance him either. Yes those scenes are well written but the story as a whole feels like a sandwich short of a pick nick.

 
That being said i can see where you are coming from and you could say that if I am fine with Isabella story, I should be with the Anders one as, in fact you could say that it spans on more quest and you have as much influence on both. In fact Isabella story line has much less warning that Anders
 
For me it is really the way that the whole story plays out. May be it suffers of being the main motor of act 3.  for me It is the epitome of Hawke’s apathy in lost of ways.
 
You send me getting mushroom then you tell me it not really for you grand ma Tavinter pie receipies, you a gloomy as I impending doom.
Sorry I can’t really be arsed to investigate what the hell the loose canon you are is up to especially with Meredith frothing at the mouth. Hence I am going to walk the Mabari and act as if nothing had happened.
 
 
The same way I could have taken O transformation if it had happened in the middle of templar before you had to deal with him. (Which is in essences what he is doing anyway but in way that makes much less sense)
Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 01 mars 2012 - 01:40 .

[Yakko77]

I got 4 complete plays with DA2. I loved the game. I hope there is more to come with DLC but the silence is pretty telling though I am looking forward to the Cassandra anime!

[Mr Fixit]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yeah, its great, isn't it? Chaos, destruction and bastards. I love Orzammar. A city built on unforgiving cruelty, born of the unforgiving nature of the underground and the Deep Roads itself.

I like being able to pick my poison, though. That's why the kick in the groin of DA2 is unsatisfactory to me. Because I know exactly when the kick is going to come and who is going to do it, every play through of DA2. No variation, no choice. So I felt that the story was unfulfilling, the choice was non-existent, the action wasn't as engaging as a good action game, the RPG characteristics were too streamlined or hodge podge to appeal to my RPG purist side and the area was too small to feel like I could really explore.

That's why I like DAO over DA2. DAO did the things it did well AMAZINGLY well. The things DA2 did, they did middle of the road, in every direction. In my humblest of opinions (which I will defend until I run out of breath).

I feel Orzammar is the best part of DA:O, of both games actually. A perfect blend of exploration, political intrigue, and dungeoncrawling.

And as you pointed out, many different outcomes in Orzammar really highlight the utter lack of choice in Kirkwall

[elessarz]

I feel as though people are gauging Dragon Age 2 according to the same scale as Dragon Age Origins, when in fact the two are very different. They look for old elements and they do not find them, and so they are disappointed, all the while failing to see the newcomer's strengths. Dragon Age 2's weaknesses are easily fixed, but the good things it brought to the table are very difficult to make. Perhaps those should have been appreciated more.

I'm glad you enjoyed the game so much, OP, I only hope the Baldur's Gate crowd doesn't bully BioWare into killing the good from Dragon Age 2 when the time comes to decide what goes into Dragon Age 3.