147 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

that's where logistic and budget would help people stop asking the first question BMW......

well, depending on the answer

[jasonsantanna]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

More Mass Effect, The better.

I 2nd that. . . . . . 

[bmwcrazy]

crimzontearz wrote...

that's where logistic and budget would help people stop asking the first question BMW......

well, depending on the answer

If day-one DLCs are the final touch-ups for the finished products, I can believe that. Since it makes sense for some developers to cut out certain contents in order to make the release deadline even if it's only one or two days.
However, I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate how logistics and budgeting come into play. 

Modifié par bmwcrazy, 09 janvier 2012 - 01:57 .

[Zanallen]

This character and mission seems a lot like Sebastian in DA2. It will be included free at no extra cost for the CE edition, much like how Seb was free for the SE edition of DA2, and will be available as day one DLC for owners of the standard edition. Sounds fine. I have no problems with this.

As for why it isn't included in the main game, perhaps it won't be ready by the time the game needs to go gold. After all, there is a big difference between announcing a DLC and that DLC being ready and waiting to be released.

[shinobi602]

Bioware, and any other major company has the right to profit and make more money.

Doesn't change the fact that already finished game content, months before the game is even out, is not put into the finished game to make an extra buck. Plausible business idea, but still a damn ******* disgusting tactic. For shame.

[crimzontearz]

bmwcrazy wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
that's where logistic and budget would help people stop asking the first question BMW......
well, depending on the answer

If day-one DLCs are the final touch-ups for the finished products, I can believe that. Since it makes sense for some developers to cut out certain contents in order to make the release deadline even if it's only one or two days.
However, I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate how logistics and budgeting come into play. 

quite simply if the day one dlc is made by, say, a separate team with a separate budget that warrants a return of investments then I am 100% OK with it being not free. Similarly if the dlc is part of project 10 dollars and thus free to all new purchases and is made basically to prevent second hand market and give the devs some money from used sales I'm 100% OK with it even if it is ripped from the final game. Something like Capcom did in SF4? totally not OK with it....and so on....

[Ice Cold J]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Bioware puts extra character in CE for fans willing to pay a little extra. People complain that everyone should have the extra character.

Bioware makes the extra character purchasable by everyone. People complain that they have to pay for it if they don't buy the CE.

Ah BSN, you never cease to amaze me.

Although I always am looking for a deal (like most people out there), I have to agree.

You obv. don't NEED to get the DLC to complete the game, so don't buy it if you don't want to. Or, get the CE and get a LOT of cool boni (Latin plural of bonus).

[JBo796]

Slidell505 wrote...

Are you guys really defending Bioware cutting out content to push as DLC? Seriously? Jesus Christ.

yeh..what about my Savior?

[FFinfinity1]

I'm actually preordering the collectors edition, So yes i paid that extra bit of cash. However some of you are not realizing thats why you get that extra content in the first place, because you paid more. However if you pay for that extra content in the form of a day one DLC well go right ahead it only fair too, but if some of you are asking to make it free then wth that makes no sense.

[RyuujinZERO]

[quote]Slidell505 wrote...

Are you guys really defending Bioware cutting out content to push as DLC? Seriously? Jesus Christ.[/quote][/quote]

This :|

Out of curiosity, how old are the guys who're defending them? - I'm curious if I'm simply "old and fuddy" who still remembers the "good old days", when you could just buy a game. No DRM, no day 1 DLC, no cash shops, no subscriptions - whole game up front for a lump cash sum, possibly with significant expansions down the line (The expansions for games like Neverwinter Nights were almost as big as the original game!)

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 09 janvier 2012 - 02:47 .

[FFinfinity1]

[quote]RyuujinZERO wrote...

[quote]Slidell505 wrote...

Are you guys really defending Bioware cutting out content to push as DLC? Seriously? Jesus Christ.[/quote][/quote]

This :|

Out of curiosity, how old are the guys who're defending them? - I'm curious if I'm simply "old and fuddy" who still remembers the "good old days", when you could just buy a game. No DRM, no day 1 DLC, no cash shops, no subscriptions - whole game up front for a lump cash sum, possibly with significant expansions down the line (The expansions for games like Neverwinter Nights were almost as big as the original game!)[/quote]

I remember these time quite fondly but i was still quite young-ish. I would buy Sims 2 and the expansion packs were pretty great on their own. We didn't have to worry about lame DLC that gave us a new added gun that we probably would hardly ever use or some cool looking skin for our character.

But hell people actually buy em and plus you don't have to cover the cost of putting it on a Disc, all they do is copy the DLC to their customers. I don't see DLC leaving anytime soon

[essarr71]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Are you guys really defending Bioware cutting out content to push as DLC? Seriously? Jesus Christ.

This :|

Out of curiosity, how old are the guys who're defending them? - I'm curious if I'm simply "old and fuddy" who still remembers the "good old days", when you could just buy a game. No DRM, no day 1 DLC, no cash shops, no subscriptions - whole game up front for a lump cash sum, possibly with significant expansions down the line (The expansions for games like Neverwinter Nights were almost as big as the original game!)

"Defending" isn't exactly how I'd put it.  I don't blame them for trying to max profits (and I hope the company continues to thrive since I enjoy their products), even if I'm old enough to remember a simpler time when it comes to gaming.

I'm old enough to have a mortgage, a car payment, cable/internet, insurance.. I have to budget.  I'm also lucky enough to not have to eat raman every day, so I can sympathize with people who're restricted to tigher budgets. 

My issue - and where I find it different than "defending" Bioware - that that if you don't approve of how a company handles itself, or if you feel they're cutting corners to open your wallet more, it's on the consumer to avoid it.  Bioware isn't breaking any laws.  They're still providing you with a complete game at release (unlike say sword of stars 2).  If you don't feel like a dlc character is worth $10, then don't get it.  If you think such a practice is disgusting, don't buy their products; because so long as you complain and STILL purchase it, you're a liar.  If the product or service is worth the sacrifice, you shouldn't complain.. and if it isn't, you shouldn't pay.  It's not complicated.

Do I wish all this stuff came free?  Of course.  But I also know that even if you added up every Bioware purchase I've made over the past decade and divided it by how many hours of amazing entertainment I've made plenty of bang for my buck.  But, anchor my point, I'm not just blindingly following Bioware's fiddle.  DA2 disgusted me so much I won't touch any of it's DLC and they certainly won't see any money from me before release of DA3. 

I totally understand wanting as much as possible for a little as possible - it's the right way to go about it.  I just find it funny when you draw the line at a simple "just don't buy it", it's an unacceptable course of action.  If the content is clearly worth the trouble, I can forgive Bioware for making me bring lunch that day instead of hitting the deli - cause I'm pretty confident that I'll enjoy the money spent.

Modifié par essarr71, 09 janvier 2012 - 03:15 .

[Estherra Drack]

JBo796 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Are you guys really defending Bioware cutting out content to push as DLC? Seriously? Jesus Christ.

yeh..what about my Savior?

Marty’s Movie Reviews come on right after him. 

On subject, I hate day one DLC. If the company has been planning on the DLC to come out the same day as the game why couldn’t it be on the disk? I don’t see McDonald's charging me for ketchup.

[Eclipse_9990]

Day one DLC is serious business apparently.

[Walker White]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Everything in a game is developed by dedicated teams. There's no one "team" that makes the entire game.

Dedicated team means a separately budgeted entity.  Budget for main game; budget for DLC team.  Each budgeted according to a distinct revenue stream, as determined by the bean counters. That is why your analogy fails.

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Out of curiosity, how old are the guys who're defending them? - I'm curious if I'm simply "old and fuddy" who still remembers the "good old days", when you could just buy a game. No DRM, no day 1 DLC, no cash shops, no subscriptions - whole game up front for a lump cash sum, possibly with significant expansions down the line (The expansions for games like Neverwinter Nights were almost as big as the original game!)

Ah the good old days.  Remember those the days when the Commodore 64 had DRM that could cause physical damage to your hard drive?  Why can't we have games like that?

On a more serious note, gsme prices have remained realitively fixed in cost while development costs have risen much faster than the rate of inflation.  What the price stability has shown is that they do not have the pricing pow to pas these cost on to the consumer.  DLC appears to be the only successful means of doing this, so they have latched on to that.

[SnakeStrike8]

I'm still learning that DLC is made at the same time as the original game.
Was quite shocking to me back in the beginning. I mean, first you make the game, release it, then start thinking about DLC. Right?
Apparently not.

Still, ME 2's system of DLC was pretty solid. They hit just the right balance of free and priced DLC to make me (the consumer) feel valued, and at the same time ensure that I forked over bits of cash whenever something big came out.
Zaeed was free, and I was impressed enough with it that I bought Kasumi's DLC when it became available. Here's to hoping they keep a similar system in ME 3.

[Thrak Balzak]

FFinfinity1 wrote...
 We didn't have to worry about lame DLC that gave us a new added gun that we probably would hardly ever use or some cool looking skin for our character.

You still don't have to worry about that stuff.  I've never downloaded altnerative skins or weapon packs that weren't free.  And I don't even buy all the extra mission DLC if it doesn't appeal to me.  I've managed to get tons of game play out of BioWare games without worrying about that stuff or feeling that I somehow got jipped out of a complete gaming experience.  The games, as they are on the discs, have always felt perfectly complete.

But if people are willing to pay for all that stuff, then of course companies are going to exploit that.  That's just how these things work.  And I'm sure it helps fund future projects as well, which I'm all for.  Because I enjoy BioWare games and feel like they've earned my money whenever I choose to buy stuff from them.

[SnakeStrike8]

[quote]RyuujinZERO wrote...

[quote]Slidell505 wrote...

Are you guys really defending Bioware cutting out content to push as DLC? Seriously? Jesus Christ.[/quote][/quote]

This :|

Out of curiosity, how old are the guys who're defending them? - I'm curious if I'm simply "old and fuddy" who still remembers the "good old days", when you could just buy a game. No DRM, no day 1 DLC, no cash shops, no subscriptions - whole game up front for a lump cash sum, possibly with significant expansions down the line (The expansions for games like Neverwinter Nights were almost as big as the original game!)[/quote]

I remember those days. Solid, circular CDs that you had to pop in and out when you wanted to play new games and sixty page manuals that you'd read as the game installed. Mask of the Betrayer was almost better than NWN 2!

[KreeCapt]

Images wrote...

Don't misuse "stay classy" to be an ass. You shame Ron Burgandy.

+1

[PaulSX]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Are you guys really defending Bioware cutting out content to push as DLC? Seriously? Jesus Christ.

This :|

Out of curiosity, how old are the guys who're defending them? - I'm curious if I'm simply "old and fuddy" who still remembers the "good old days", when you could just buy a game. No DRM, no day 1 DLC, no cash shops, no subscriptions - whole game up front for a lump cash sum, possibly with significant expansions down the line (The expansions for games like Neverwinter Nights were almost as big as the original game!)

I remember those days. Solid, circular CDs that you had to pop in and out when you wanted to play new games and sixty page manuals that you'd read as the game installed. Mask of the Betrayer was almost better than NWN 2!

I miss those days they still make fancy package for PC games. I still have the original box of Baldur's Gate II. But to be honest, I do not mind dlcs. they are not the the worst problem. I hate current drm scheme (for pc game) more than dlcs. I'd rather play games on console nowadays.

Modifié par suntzuxi, 09 janvier 2012 - 05:03 .

[chance52]

essarr71 wrote...
...
My issue - and where I find it different than "defending" Bioware - that that if you don't approve of how a company handles itself, or if you feel they're cutting corners to open your wallet more, it's on the consumer to avoid it.  Bioware isn't breaking any laws.  They're still providing you with a complete game at release (unlike say sword of stars 2).  If you don't feel like a dlc character is worth $10, then don't get it.  If you think such a practice is disgusting, don't buy their products; because so long as you complain and STILL purchase it, you're a liar. ..

I am an artist.  I take photos, illustrate, paint and sculpt to earn a living.  I provide a creative product and I can point you in the direction of a few disreputable galleries employing underhanded practices. Some are worth my trouble in dealing with and some are not but someone can walk into where my work is displayed, like my creations and not the owner of the gallery but still buy my art.  Why?  Because the piece is worth it to them and they want to support the artist despite their distaste for the gallery, as an example.

When you become a customer you don't give up your right to form an opinion about whom you do business with.

Casey Hudson and his team didn't invite themselves into our computers to rummage around and I don't think they were focused on these marketing tricks to cut their work into pieces in order for us to pick Gamestop over BestBuy or visa versa.  They were focused on the work itself.

I can support the creative team and still not like what the company is doing without being a 'liar'

essarr71 wrote...
I totally understand wanting as much as possible for a little as possible - it's the right way to go about it...

Point. Missing it.

Cost might be a factor to some, heck I paid $80 for the Deluxe Digital Download so Bioware is earning somewhere around 99.999999 % profit from my order. But the money isn't where my anger comes from.  I am upset that a product is complete, then cut into multiple sections and then packaged in about 15 different services all being labeled 'bonus content!'

Sorry, but I call BS, the art book, bonus, the soundtrack, bonus, the picture, bonus. Extra armor/weapons/DLC quest and character, all in-game content packaged months before delivery is cut content from the original game and passed off as a bonus. If you buy a painting from me I don't remove the canvas from the frame, then try and sell the frame back to you as a 'bonus'

[OmegaBlue0231]

chance52 wrote...

essarr71 wrote...
...
My issue - and where I find it different than "defending" Bioware - that that if you don't approve of how a company handles itself, or if you feel they're cutting corners to open your wallet more, it's on the consumer to avoid it.  Bioware isn't breaking any laws.  They're still providing you with a complete game at release (unlike say sword of stars 2).  If you don't feel like a dlc character is worth $10, then don't get it.  If you think such a practice is disgusting, don't buy their products; because so long as you complain and STILL purchase it, you're a liar. ..

I am an artist.  I take photos, illustrate, paint and sculpt to earn a living.  I provide a creative product and I can point you in the direction of a few disreputable galleries employing underhanded practices. Some are worth my trouble in dealing with and some are not but someone can walk into where my work is displayed, like my creations and not the owner of the gallery but still buy my art.  Why?  Because the piece is worth it to them and they want to support the artist despite their distaste for the gallery, as an example.

When you become a customer you don't give up your right to form an opinion about whom you do business with.

Casey Hudson and his team didn't invite themselves into our computers to rummage around and I don't think they were focused on these marketing tricks to cut their work into pieces in order for us to pick Gamestop over BestBuy or visa versa.  They were focused on the work itself.

I can support the creative team and still not like what the company is doing without being a 'liar'

essarr71 wrote...
I totally understand wanting as much as possible for a little as possible - it's the right way to go about it...

Point. Missing it.

Cost might be a factor to some, heck I paid $80 for the Deluxe Digital Download so Bioware is earning somewhere around 99.999999 % profit from my order. But the money isn't where my anger comes from.  I am upset that a product is complete, then cut into multiple sections and then packaged in about 15 different services all being labeled 'bonus content!'

Sorry, but I call BS, the art book, bonus, the soundtrack, bonus, the picture, bonus. Extra armor/weapons/DLC quest and character, all in-game content packaged months before delivery is cut content from the original game and passed off as a bonus. If you buy a painting from me I don't remove the canvas from the frame, then try and sell the frame back to you as a 'bonus'

Do you add the cost of the frame to the initial price since you're losing money on what you bought the frame for? Or do you give it away for free with the picture and take a hit in hopes the people will return since you didn't charge them for it when others would?

It's the same thing with day one DLC, do you give it away to everyone and hope they buy more or do you make people pay extra to cover the cost of making it? With ME 2 and DA:O they went with choice 1 with ME 3 and DA2 they went with the secong choice. If enough people complain they might go back but it's there choice.

In the end it's their choice.

Modifié par OmegaBlue0231, 09 janvier 2012 - 05:17 .

[AlanC9]

chance52 wrote...
 But the money isn't where my anger comes from.  I am upset that a product is complete, then cut into multiple sections and then packaged in about 15 different services all being labeled 'bonus content!' 

Thing is, that almost certainly didn't happen.

No sane project manager would have produced ME3 in one big lump and then cut bits out for DLC. This opens you up to all kinds of resource dependency issues and QA nightmares. Sure, those problems are soluble, but why set yourself up for those problems in the first place?

Of course, Bio could be full of idiots who forgot that they'd need some DLC for ME3. Is that your bet?

[AlanC9]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...
Out of curiosity, how old are the guys who're defending them? - I'm curious if I'm simply "old and fuddy" who still remembers the "good old days", when you could just buy a game. No DRM, no day 1 DLC, no cash shops, no subscriptions - whole game up front for a lump cash sum, possibly with significant expansions down the line (The expansions for games like Neverwinter Nights were almost as big as the original game!)

Didn't someone ask that upthread?

Anyway, I'm 47.

Edit: oddly enough, I had the opposite intuition from yours -- I thought that the people who are complaining about DLC are too young to have jobs, since there's so much magical thinking about how products get produced.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 janvier 2012 - 05:54 .