147 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

chance52 wrote...

Sorry, but I call BS, the art book, bonus, the soundtrack, bonus, the picture, bonus. Extra armor/weapons/DLC quest and character, all in-game content packaged months before delivery is cut content from the original game and passed off as a bonus. If you buy a painting from me I don't remove the canvas from the frame, then try and sell the frame back to you as a 'bonus'

This may be true, but it also speaks to how expectation has shaped our opinions on economics.  I assume the reason you don't charge people for the frame is because it's considered good practice to provide a frame with a painting. But if you decided to change it up, charge separately for each, and assuming you made that known up front, I don't think anyone could really say anything. It might not win you brownie points from your customers, but it is ultimately your product to decide how you want to go about selling. 

 

[DxWill10]

FFinfinity1 wrote...

I'm actually preordering the collectors edition, So yes i paid that extra bit of cash. However some of you are not realizing thats why you get that extra content in the first place, because you paid more. However if you pay for that extra content in the form of a day one DLC well go right ahead it only fair too, but if some of you are asking to make it free then wth that makes no sense.

This makes sense.

People wanting it for free are aware that the CE would be obselete?  With that kind of logic...So I can pay extra money for a CE that contains extra stuff.  Or I can wait and get that extra stuff for free on the DLC...

Hm. Yea obviously this isn't how it works.  If that's what you're hoping for, well, keep hoping I guess.

Modifié par DxWill10, 09 janvier 2012 - 05:54 .

[chance52]

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

Do you add the cost of the frame to the initial price since you're losing money on what you bought the frame for? Or do you give it away for free with the picture and take a hit in hopes the people will return since you didn't charge them for it when others would?

It's the same thing with day one DLC, do you give it away to everyone and hope they buy more or do you make people pay extra to cover the cost of making it? With ME 2 and DA:O they went with choice 1 with ME 3 and DA2 they went with the secong choice. If enough people complain they might go back but it's there choice.

In the end it's their choice.

It is most certainly not the same thing.  Products, no matter the industry, have a recovery number they have to exceed in order for it to be profitable venture. I do not charge for the frame, I charge the price I feel the entire work is when sold independently, but galleries often price art at the rate's they deem it is worth.  They have never questioned me on the cost of my materials or the hours I spent on the piece because that is irrelevant to price the art is worth. Though I'll admit my field is unique in that particular price assessment process.

Granted I have veto power to a certain extent but it doesnt matter if I used crayola paint or diamonds, the overall quality of what I produce dictates the price. But when a potential customer comes in they don't think the price next to the work only applies to a portion of the art they see with additional fees added later if they want the frame the canvas is stretched on.

Why Day One DLC is different from that case is because it is part of the original work. Not an item pack made 3 months after release or a story arch they tackled later once the product was released. These are things that are currently part of the entire Mass Effect 3 product available on day one as playable components. Granted some things are only available to portions of the consumer. It is still all part of the initial release.

AlanC9 wrote...

Thing is, that almost certainly didn't happen.

No
sane project manager would have produced ME3 in one big lump and then
cut bits out for DLC. This opens you up to all kinds of resource
dependency issues and QA nightmares. Sure, those problems are soluble,
but why set yourself up for those problems in the first place?

Of course, Bio could be full of idiots who forgot that they'd need some DLC for ME3. Is that your bet?

At this point we are both speculating but I find it more plausible that they were aware DLC would be needed and designed part of their existing story to accommodate that separation. I don't think it was designed independently to serve as bonus material that otherwise wouldn't have existed. 

To put it more simply, I think without Day One DLC these quests/items/etc would still have been part of the story and released as part of the entire game, not simply never created. That is my bet.

But as I said, at this point we are both speculating on the thought process of those involved.

[chance52]

Il Divo wrote...

chance52 wrote...

Sorry, but I call BS, the art book, bonus, the soundtrack, bonus, the picture, bonus. Extra armor/weapons/DLC quest and character, all in-game content packaged months before delivery is cut content from the original game and passed off as a bonus. If you buy a painting from me I don't remove the canvas from the frame, then try and sell the frame back to you as a 'bonus'

This may be true, but it also speaks to how expectation has shaped our opinions on economics.  I assume the reason you don't charge people for the frame is because it's considered good practice to provide a frame with a painting. But if you decided to change it up, charge separately for each, and assuming you made that known up front, I don't think anyone could really say anything. It might not win you brownie points from your customers, but it is ultimately your product to decide how you want to go about selling. 

 

At no point did I suggest it wasn't their choice to take these actions. Though I still take issue with what Bioware and other gaming companies idea of 'bonus material' is. 

As I've said in other threads, the art book was worth the extra money to me and so I paid the extra money to get it.  However this notion that the quest and so on is 'bonus' still rings hollow to me. It feels like the industry found a way to make people pay twice for the same thing and those who only want to play the game and not have a soundtrack or book or image is getting the short end of the stick.

[AlanC9]

chance52 wrote...
At this point we are both speculating but I find it more plausible that they were aware DLC would be needed and designed part of their existing story to accommodate that separation. I don't think it was designed independently to serve as bonus material that otherwise wouldn't have existed.  

To put it more simply, I think without Day One DLC these quests/items/etc would still have been part of the story and released as part of the entire game, not simply never created. That is my bet.

But as I said, at this point we are both speculating on the thought process of those involved.

You lose me at "existing story." Everything I've read points to the Bio devs not  having more than the vaguest plan for ME3 before ME2 neared completion, same as ME2 wasn't written until ME1 was nearing completion.

But yeah, the version of ME3 that exists in some parallel universe where nobody ever thought up DLC but everything else is absolutely identical... neither of us is ever going to see a copy of that game.

Note, however, that paid DLC by definition has its own revenue attached, and day 1 DLC earns its keep through replacing used game sales with new game sales. The alternate universe MEs would need to sell more copies than this universe's copies since you've got Bio spending the same dev time on them without these revenue streams. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 janvier 2012 - 06:35 .

[chance52]

AlanC9 wrote...

chance52 wrote...
At this point we are both speculating but I find it more plausible that they were aware DLC would be needed and designed part of their existing story to accommodate that separation. I don't think it was designed independently to serve as bonus material that otherwise wouldn't have existed.  

To put it more simply, I think without Day One DLC these quests/items/etc would still have been part of the story and released as part of the entire game, not simply never created. That is my bet.

But as I said, at this point we are both speculating on the thought process of those involved.

You lose me at "existing story." Everything I've read points to the Bio devs not  having more than the vaguest plan for ME3 before ME2 neared completion, same as ME2 wasn't written until ME1 was nearing completion.

But yeah, the version of ME3 that exists in some parallel universe where nobody ever thought up day 1 DLC but everything else is absolutely identical... neither of us is ever going to see a copy of that game.

And here I was afraid I was being insulting by making my post as simple as I did. You still do not understand (or you are intentionally pretending not to understand for the purpose of being demeaning.)

'No' I am not suggesting there was a final draft of the script from day one that was created identically for the game and not once had any changes of any kind.  I am saying that had no one had the conversation with the Mass Effect team on the subject of DLC everything being advertised now as a 'bonus' or 'store exclusive' would still have been made.  That none of these things are real bonuses, just parts of the whole masquerading as a bonus.

[OmegaBlue0231]

chance52 wrote...

OmegaBlue0231 wrote...

Do you add the cost of the frame to the initial price since you're losing money on what you bought the frame for? Or do you give it away for free with the picture and take a hit in hopes the people will return since you didn't charge them for it when others would?

It's the same thing with day one DLC, do you give it away to everyone and hope they buy more or do you make people pay extra to cover the cost of making it? With ME 2 and DA:O they went with choice 1 with ME 3 and DA2 they went with the secong choice. If enough people complain they might go back but it's there choice.

In the end it's their choice.

It is most certainly not the same thing.  Products, no matter the industry, have a recovery number they have to exceed in order for it to be profitable venture. I do not charge for the frame, I charge the price I feel the entire work is when sold independently, but galleries often price art at the rate's they deem it is worth.  They have never questioned me on the cost of my materials or the hours I spent on the piece because that is irrelevant to price the art is worth. Though I'll admit my field is unique in that particular price assessment process.

Granted I have veto power to a certain extent but it doesnt matter if I used crayola paint or diamonds, the overall quality of what I produce dictates the price. But when a potential customer comes in they don't think the price next to the work only applies to a portion of the art they see with additional fees added later if they want the frame the canvas is stretched on.

Why Day One DLC is different from that case is because it is part of the original work. Not an item pack made 3 months after release or a story arch they tackled later once the product was released. These are things that are currently part of the entire Mass Effect 3 product available on day one as playable components. Granted some things are only available to portions of the consumer. It is still all part of the initial release.

It's still sounding the same. You sound like what I desribe with what bioware did for DA:O and ME2, you didn't charge your customers because you didn't think it was good business sense. Also some place do charge for the frame, proving the second part where I compared that to what they're doing with DA2 and ME3  (my sister just had pictures taken and they added a fee for the frame) just because you don't doesn't mean others don't as well.

Think of it this way. The DLC will probably be about $7 or so. Now that's around 1/3 of the extra cost of the CE. If everyone got that for free why bother having the CE which some people would not find worth it's cost without what most people are getting it for, the extra content? I'm not saying it's not worth the $20 dollars because it is, but the average gamer that's not interst in the art, a patch, or a soundtrack would not feel it's worth the price.

[VanDraegon]

I cant believe people are still ****ing about this after multiple games with day 1 dlc and years later from when Bioware first started the practice. How many other Devs have done the same thing?

This isnt some new thing. Time to just move on already if you disagree with the practice. Show your objections by not buying the game and boycotting the dev, their products and their forums....

Modifié par VanDraegon, 09 janvier 2012 - 07:15 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

It actually takes time to get the finished product from Biowares studios to the retail store. Like months of time. We're talking about months of bug testing, manufacturing and various logistics which need to be planned. Should Bioware just take a 3 month holiday instead of develop some content to make available for download once the game has been delivered.

[Mike Shepard]

Guys. Listen up, I'm about to drop a knowledge bomb on ya'll. Mass Effect 3 will be a complete game at release. this isn't Star Wars: Knights of the Republic II: The Sith Lords (I am looking at you, Obsidian!). It's gonna be complete. The Day One DLC will be an extra character. I mean Zaeed was Day One DLC. No one really had that much of an issue with Zaeed right? If it costs money and you don't want to pay the money then don't. But if that's the case don't go into your whole but I want a complete game!! I want everything!! etc rants. You can't have your cake (complete game) and eat it too (not have to pay a few bucks extra). You just can't. Me personally? I haven't made up my mind. I am thrilled to be getting this game. I think the Mass Effect games are a work of art. Really. I do. The first one is my favorite video game of all time. The second one I got on release day (The Standard Edition. Still don't have that Collector armour either...but I digress). I decided to splurge on the third, because I had a $100 GameStop Gift Card I got as a gift, so I purchased the Collectors' Edition (pre-ordered in June 2011). Anyway, I haven't decided if I'll buy the character if it doesn't come with the Collectors' Edition. Would I like it to since I'm paying $20 more for the CE? Yes. Will I burn anything/rage if it isn't? no! Personally I am actually holding out hope that BioWare will in a surprise move do a DA2 type thing: Pre-Orders are automatically upgraded for the price of the SE. but that is not going to happen...and I am fine with that.

as for the complaints about Dragon Age II, Sebastian was a relatively minor character, was he not? It seemed to me that was the case anyway. He appears in everyone's game but if you have the DLC then you recruit him? Perhaps the bonus character will get that treatment? Everyone sees them but if you have their DLC you can recruit them??

what was my original point?!

oh yes. Mass Effect 3 will be complete, just as Mass Effect 2 was (all the Downloadable Content Packs were nice, but none were really crucial except for Arrival. The game shipped complete--its just that those willing to not "eat their cake" as it were got to have a few extra toys for Shepard to brutally slaughter....I mean aggressively negotiate (hats off to the only good line in Attack of the Clones...) with. Mass Effect 1 was arguably (actually not arguably....just fact) the most complete. A simpler time before Electronic Arts.

thats all for now, folks
 
Mike Shepard
Forumite, Mass Effect fan, BioWare supporter

[JasonDaPsycho]

DLCs are meant to extend the period of popularity, not acting as excuses for releasing unfinished games.

[AlanC9]

chance52 wrote...
And here I was afraid I was being insulting by making my post as simple as I did. You still do not understand (or you are intentionally pretending not to understand for the purpose of being demeaning.)

Don't worry about insulting me -- I had sort of assumed you were being simple-minded myself.

'No' I am not suggesting there was a final draft of the script from day one that was created identically for the game and not once had any changes of any kind.  I am saying that had no one had the conversation with the Mass Effect team on the subject of DLC everything being advertised now as a 'bonus' or 'store exclusive' would still have been made.  That none of these things are real bonuses, just parts of the whole masquerading as a bonus.

OK, you're just assuming that things would have turned out the same. Why are you assuming that you get the same amount of content made for a game that's going to have less revenue? Didn't you mention the "recovery number" a couple posts ago?

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 janvier 2012 - 08:23 .

[AlanC9]

JasonDaPsycho wrote...

DLCs are meant to extend the period of popularity, not acting as excuses for releasing unfinished games.

Don't forget discouraging used game sales.

[BounceDK]

Red by Full Metal Jacket wrote...

Wait, people are actually SUPPORTING Day-one DLC? Unbelievable.

It's pretty messed up.

[Knightstar2001]

Gatt9 wrote...

GrandTurian wrote...

sadly day one DLC is the wave of the future. I dont like it either, but then again I'm getting the CE so I'll have the extra character from the start.

I don't think it is. I think it's the last desperate attempts of publishers that are quickly becoming irrelevant in a digital delivery future, attempting to shore up their dropping profits, especially since they keep pushing so much "Me too!!!" mediocre games out the door that people don't buy them.

I mean honestly, Minecraft performed better than a number of EA titles did this year. EA's just becoming irrelevant, and their frantic attempts to gain some sort of presence in every possible delivery method and platform testify to that. It's telegraphing to me that EA's realized they have a major problem, and don't have any idea how to handle it.

I don't see how other games doing better in sales has anything to do with Digital Delivery, That has to do with doing better in designing games that fit certain target audiences. Digital Delivery is the method of getting the game to the customer and I doubt Publishers are in any danger just from Steam(one of the biggest Digital distributors for PC) since Steam still has to pay them for every sale made on one of EA's game.

slimgrin wrote...

When the Xbox version of TW2 releases, we all get an improved game and 4hrs of extra content for free, and that's on top of a lot of extra content already released for TW2. Basically, CDPR b*tch slaps Bioware when it comes to this.

Really? When they already had the game fully developed and are just adapting it for the 360(which they were already saying before it release on PC that they plan to do a 360 release). They are adding all that because the PC version is getting that(for free) and they had promised the 360 version would have all the content that had been released for the PC version. It's the same deal as when Bioware made the ME2 game for PS3 except we have a better chance that there still be more DLC made that they can charge us for like the rumored Expansion.

JasonDaPsycho wrote...

DLCs are meant to extend the period of popularity, not acting as excuses for releasing unfinished games.

that is one way in how they are used,but that is not their main purpose. They are meant to Enhance the game. Either by enhancing players equipment options through item packs,enhancing the story, Enhancing player customization and such. Does this keep people playing the game longer,of course it does since they have other stuff to do and more options to use in the game.

chance52 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

chance52 wrote...
At this point we are both speculating but I find it more plausible that they were aware DLC would be needed and designed part of their existing story to accommodate that separation. I don't think it was designed independently to serve as bonus material that otherwise wouldn't have existed.

To put it more simply, I think without Day One DLC these quests/items/etc would still have been part of the story and released as part of the entire game, not simply never created. That is my bet.

But as I said, at this point we are both speculating on the thought process of those involved.

You lose me at "existing story." Everything I've read points to the Bio devs not having more than the vaguest plan for ME3 before ME2 neared completion, same as ME2 wasn't written until ME1 was nearing completion.

But yeah, the version of ME3 that exists in some parallel universe where nobody ever thought up day 1 DLC but everything else is absolutely identical... neither of us is ever going to see a copy of that game.

And here I was afraid I was being insulting by making my post as simple as I did. You still do not understand (or you are intentionally pretending not to understand for the purpose of being demeaning.)

'No' I am not suggesting there was a final draft of the script from day one that was created identically for the game and not once had any changes of any kind. I am saying that had no one had the conversation with the Mass Effect team on the subject of DLC everything being advertised now as a 'bonus' or 'store exclusive' would still have been made. That none of these things are real bonuses, just parts of the whole masquerading as a bonus.

That is assuming that they would have thought up these particular things without reason. If they didn't think about DLC, Would they have believe that there was a need for a bonus character and mission or bothered with one instead of just focusing on the existing core team members and all the potential returning members? We already know that we have too many squad members between ME1's squad and everyone who could have survived from ME2. It would have been easier to just focus more time on existing characters instead of bothering with a character that is not really important to the story( considering that it ended up as DLC and therefor optional).

Using your work in art as a example doesn't really work as doing DLC in your work would be making a painting of a meadow/outdoor park and then charging a customer who bought it extra if they want animals, people,more of those or the addition of a river(or some other feature) added to it. Day One DLC would you standing outside of the gallery offering that service and letting people know that service is availble. Is your painting of a meadow/outdoor park complete without any of those,yes it is.

The PLC wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

JasonDaPsycho wrote...

DLCs are meant to extend the period of popularity, not acting as excuses for releasing unfinished games.

Don't forget discouraging used game sales.

People
who picks up the regular edition will have to pay extra for the extra
squaddie. So how does that encourage people to buy new?!

He didn't say that the Extra Character and mission DLC was meant to encourage people to buy new. Just that companies also use DLC to discourage used game sales. It is likely that some other DLC will be annouced as part of EA's project ten Dollars which is part of their efforts to combat used game sales. Thats done by limiting the ways to aquire the DLC. In the case of project ten dollars, they make it so you either get it for free by redeeming the code included in new copies of the game or you pay ten dollars to get it off the game marketplace in the event that you have a used copy.

Modifié par Knightstar2001, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:46 .

[DarthSliver]

I think the people complaining about paying Day 1 DLC for a character thats free in CE is ridiculous. I mean would you rather them keep that character for CE buyers only since you, the Standard Edition buyers, dont seem happy with paying extra for it from what i read here. I dont say that lightly either because I am a CE buyer thats more for the tangible stuff in the CE than the DLC. I wish for all the DLC in CE to be available for the people who couldnt afford the CE or didnt want to fork out the money needed for the CE. Bioware plans to gives you a chance to still enjoy the Bonus Character from the CE at a extra cost. From my point of view you should be glad its not being kept exclusive to CE buyers only and I hope they make the other DLC stuff in the CE and preorder bonuses available as DLC for everyone.

I dont blame Bioware for wanting to make an extra buck or EA for that matter, they are a business after all and if you were running the company you would do the same thing with the DLC and make extra money off it. What I frown on is companies releasing Broken titles like Skyrim to us when it clearly needed more time with the bug exterminators.

As for Knights of the Old Republic 2 issues, that was Lucasart rushing the title out not Obsidian.

Modifié par DarthSliver, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:05 .

[f1r3storm]

chance52 wrote...

essarr71 wrote...
...
My issue - and where I find it different than "defending" Bioware - that that if you don't approve of how a company handles itself, or if you feel they're cutting corners to open your wallet more, it's on the consumer to avoid it.  Bioware isn't breaking any laws.  They're still providing you with a complete game at release (unlike say sword of stars 2).  If you don't feel like a dlc character is worth $10, then don't get it.  If you think such a practice is disgusting, don't buy their products; because so long as you complain and STILL purchase it, you're a liar. ..

I am an artist.  I take photos, illustrate, paint and sculpt to earn a living.  I provide a creative product and I can point you in the direction of a few disreputable galleries employing underhanded practices. Some are worth my trouble in dealing with and some are not but someone can walk into where my work is displayed, like my creations and not the owner of the gallery but still buy my art.  Why?  Because the piece is worth it to them and they want to support the artist despite their distaste for the gallery, as an example.

When you become a customer you don't give up your right to form an opinion about whom you do business with.

Casey Hudson and his team didn't invite themselves into our computers to rummage around and I don't think they were focused on these marketing tricks to cut their work into pieces in order for us to pick Gamestop over BestBuy or visa versa.  They were focused on the work itself.

I can support the creative team and still not like what the company is doing without being a 'liar'

essarr71 wrote...
I totally understand wanting as much as possible for a little as possible - it's the right way to go about it...

Point. Missing it.

Cost might be a factor to some, heck I paid $80 for the Deluxe Digital Download so Bioware is earning somewhere around 99.999999 % profit from my order. But the money isn't where my anger comes from.  I am upset that a product is complete, then cut into multiple sections and then packaged in about 15 different services all being labeled 'bonus content!'

Sorry, but I call BS, the art book, bonus, the soundtrack, bonus, the picture, bonus. Extra armor/weapons/DLC quest and character, all in-game content packaged months before delivery is cut content from the original game and passed off as a bonus. If you buy a painting from me I don't remove the canvas from the frame, then try and sell the frame back to you as a 'bonus'

No, it's extra (you know what that word means, right?) content developed just for this purpose. Otherwise you probably wouldn't get it at all.

[Wulfram]

DxWill10 wrote...

People wanting it for free are aware that the CE would be obselete?  With that kind of logic...So I can pay extra money for a CE that contains extra stuff.  Or I can wait and get that extra stuff for free on the DLC...

Screwing the majority of your customers so you can justify selling the Ludicrously Overpriced Tat Edition isn't logic I find very compelling.

[stysiaq]

Maybe my opinion is biased, because games are cheaper here in general, but complaining that the AAA titles game market works the way it works these days is somewhat silly. Video games is serious business, worth billions, and companies have to be sure, that their investement will pay for itself. As you watch vg campaigns and hype its not that different from the movies. And when you go to the movies for a popcorn flick, some people actually count on you to get some popcorn. Whoever invented the DLC tactic (or even day 1 DLC) it was too good an invention not to use the second time, because it generates profit.

Most of the naggers here (at least thats my assuption) arre the people who would buy any kind of DLC for this game. Since they know they WILL buy it even if it was sth like "Garrus with sunglasses", they complain, that the sunglasses alternate appearance was ready on the launch day, so it should be free. But its just the part of the companys policy - the DLC could be released 2 weeks after games release, and noone would complain.

The point is, the DLCs just add up to the hype machine. The first weeks of sales are crucial - the people are willing to pay, thus willing to pay more for anything with the right mark on it.

Just try to wait 1 or two months after games release, and then read the reviews and so on and decide whether or not mind buying the content you don't already have. Simple as that

[Dead Shizno]

Man back in the day i remember when Expansion packs made me mad,i thought it was unfiar that they would add more stuff to the game and then sell it too,now its dlc have they no shame?

but really i would only be upset if the dlc said "you must buy to finish the game"

[breyant]

It's always amusing to see how many people come out of the woodwork to vehemently argue whenever the topic of DLC is brought up. If this were a site that allowed thumb ups or downs, I'm sure my post here would have 10 downs just because I didn't say something like "Screw EA!!" or "corporate greed is ruining games!!!"

[Homey C-Dawg]

Dead Shizno wrote...

Man back in the day i remember when Expansion packs made me mad,i thought it was unfiar that they would add more stuff to the game and then sell it too,now its dlc have they no shame?

but really i would only be upset if the dlc said "you must buy to finish the game"

I actually prefer expansions to episodic or excessive DLC games. At least it feels more cohesive as a game that way and not as loosely stitched together as massive amounts of DLC. It is of course less lucrative though. 

If the trend continues, I can forsee a future of gaming where we go back to the shareware model, only this time the shareware version will cost $60 and be un-shareable, and the rest of the game will cost $100 or so in bits and pieces.