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The Bastard - Alistair's whole life is a lie


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#1
SLPr0

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This needs to be sorted out....and its probably going to require input from one of BioWare's writing team to lay this to rest.

In Dragon Age: The Calling, the elven Grey Warden Mage Fiona, and King Maric, concieve a child, a child that looks like Cailan, and is born human, no half-elves in Thedas, all interbreeding between humans and elves apparently turns up humans.

Okay, given that, the timing is rather perfect....isn't it, that this child born between Fiona and Maric and Duncan even volunteers to watch after it. Fiona specifically tells Maric to tell him nothing of his mother, to let him believe his mother was human, and to let him live a life she cannot give him.

At this point of the story, we are at epilogue of the second book. The timing of the birth and the circumstances surrounding it are absolutely more or less perfect.

So then we have Duncan, the rogue that he is, to look after the child, perhaps taking the child to Redcliffe, and finding a convenient situation where a peasant woman has just died giving birth to a child, perhaps the child she was giving birth to died with her, to be replaced by Alistair, using the womans death in child birth as a cover story for the childs true identity...but to achieve this, Duncan would have to have the cooperation of Arl Eamon, who would foster this illusion, even to Alistair even providing Alistair with a locket with a picture of his "mother" in it.

The fact that this child was taken in by Arl Eamon, while explainable if you accept the fact that Maric was somehow a lecherous womanizer that begat a child with servant at Redcliffe Castle....is impossible really to grasp given an understanding of the Maric character and his relationships in the books, he was not a lecherous womanizer, all the women noted that he had anything to do with he had deep connections with, so I cannot see, somewhere in the last 20 or so years of his life between the birth of the child between him and Fiona, and his apparent death somewhere previous to the Origin's storyline beginning, him becoming some dirty old man boffing the servants while visiting Arl Eamon on some state oriented visit.

So with that in mind it is impossible to accept that Alistair is anything other than the second child of Maric, concieved with Fiona in the Deep Roads. To believe otherwise is to believe there is a third heir of Maric somewhere in Ferelden, something Duncan nor any other character in the game alludes to.

So you have Alistair, who is brought up under the watchful eye of Arl Eamon in Duncan's stead, who is told that his mother was a human woman that died giving birth to him, perhaps even Goldanna believes this to be true, and Alistair, who neglects to mention it the entire game til after Arl Eamon is revived, is aware of his royal roots, but is completely of the belief that while his father was Maric, his mother was a human woman that died giving birth to him.

At 10 hes packed off to the Chantry and he becomes a Templar, only to come back under Duncan's wing and be made a Grey Warden...which is an odd decision on Duncan's part given his oath to look after the child, but, in a way he does look after the child, by ensuring Alistair is kept out of the worst of the fighting at Ostagar, but submitting Alistair to the taint, knowing its risks and costs, does raise a few questions.

But the simple facts are, is theres either a third heir of Maric, or Alistair is Fiona's son, and given the timing of the birth, the understanding of Maric as a man who isn't wandering around sticking his "sword" into anything with breasts and a willingness to lie down for him.....Alistair is the only reasonable option as the product of the union between Maric and Fiona.

Given the visual and behavioral age of Cailan at Ostagar, which would be potentially 22 to 25, this can only mean that Maric's death occurs somewhere within 15 to 16  years of the events in The Calling, and we can assume at least a few years have passed since his death and the opening of the Origins story line because the kingdom seems well settled and beyond Maric and acceptant of Cailan and Anora as its rulers, and there is no indication of when Maric died or how in any of the Codex information I have so it must have been a natural passing, and Loghain as of the time of Origins appears to be in his either late 40s or mid 50s age wise.

So while it is entirely possible that Maric may have fathered a third child in the time between the end of The Calling and the beginnings of Origins, I find that to be less than likely as an actual reality, since the birth of the child between him and Fiona is all too perfect to explain Alistair's royal bastard status....and surely if there was a third heir to Maric's throne, it would be a visible plot element in Origins...but Alistair is the only other known child of Maric. And it seems almost impossible to me that Duncan would have hidden Maric and Fiona's child so perfectly as to have completely forgotten about it himself up to the point of his death at Ostagar.

So, this leaves the reader/player to come to the single conclusion that the requests of Fiona at the end of The Calling were followed so perfectly that even Alistair believes Goldanna is actually his sister...when in truth she is not.

So in closing, Alistair's whole life is a lie, he's been lied to since he was old enough to understand, by Arl Eamon, by Duncan....and its only the reader/player that can make the connection and realize that heir to the throne or not, Alistair doesn't even know the whole story of his birth and no one that knows the full truth appears to be willing to shed light on it...which at the end of Origins if Alistair is made king, would be Arl Eamon, he would be the last living person to potentially know the truth...and he would stand at Alistair's side as an advisor to the throne for the rest of his life at that. To protect the secret forever?

So...again the story and the game argue with each other in my mind, but the book is winning. Alistair is the bastard son of Maric indeed, but his mother was not a servant at Redcliffe Castle, his mother was a Grey Warden Elven Mage...which makes Alistair being sent to the Chantry at 10 all the more ironic. Is it out of a potential concern by Arl Eamon that magic may be in his blood and the best place to hide it is amongst the Templars?

What a complete mindjob this is....if its true.

Modifié par SLPr0, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:07 .


#2
Trelow-LMG

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I didn't think magic use had been determined to be hereditary.

#3
SLPr0

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Trelow-LMG wrote...

I didn't think magic use had been determined to be hereditary.


I don't believe its shown to be hereditary in any of the lore available so far, but regardless of that it could be a concern...a child born to a Grey Warden Mage and all, it was just something I was throwing out there as a thought.

#4
kaimanaMM

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Wow, very interesting! I haven't read either of the books, which I'm definitely going to pick up now.

#5
Malsumis

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I could see this going down so well with Alistair. Finding out Duncan had been deceiving him, not going to be a happy camper. But it would explain why Duncan fought against the Grand Cleric to recruit him.

#6
Kaushin

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So essentially.. the story confused you.

#7
Count Viceroy

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Makes sense. Not that I think Alistair would care much.

#8
jumpinjonny

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yeah you just read way too much into the story, relax and play the game and slaughter darkspawn

#9
Leftnt Sharpe

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What makes you think there is only one royal Bastard? Do not assume that Alistair is Fiona's child.

#10
The Angry One

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The books are supplementary material, if the book contradicts the game then the game wins.

Sorry book Loghain fanboys!

#11
Ghrelt

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Could make for some interesting DLC. Or the :Origins part of the name could directly refer to Alistair himself, and he could be central to the next game. In any case, I hope they clarify the discrepancy between the books and the game at some point in the future.

#12
Guest_jynthor_*

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Wall of text.....can't....read....

#13
FlintlockJazz

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Trelow-LMG wrote...

I didn't think magic use had been determined to be hereditary.


Actually there is at least one character who claims that 'magic ran in their family', I believe it is Kieli the female mage who wants to die because she thinks magic is a sin, since I also recall that the character also prayed every night when they were a child that they would not inherit the gift.

#14
syllogi

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I think Mr. Gaider has implied on this forum that he's not planning to just tell us about Fiona's child. Either it will be revealed in a book or a game...or we will NEVER know the truth. *sob*

#15
SLPr0

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Leftnt Sharpe wrote...

What makes you think there is only one royal Bastard? Do not assume that Alistair is Fiona's child.


What makes me assume this is that no one appears to be aware of a third. Not Eamon, not Alistair himself, not Duncan, not Loghain, no one in the Origins story nor any of the Codex lore even hints at a third child.

Now, if that is the truth and theres a third son of Maric, he would have to be much younger than Alistair, unless Maric literally fell in love with a serving maid in Redcliffe within a year or so of the end of the events in The Calling. Which I find highly unlikely. Given how long he grieved the loss of Katriel, and his brooding depression after Rowan's wasting death, I cannot see him suddenly falling into the arms of a serving maid in Redcliffe Castle in the space of a year after the events of The Calling.

So any third son would be younger than Alistair.

And anyone that refers to the books as "supplemental" material and that the game trumps the books when it comes to lore arguments is obviously someone not reading their Codex at all.

#16
Malsumis

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The Angry One wrote...

The books are supplementary material, if the book contradicts the game then the game wins.
Sorry book Loghain fanboys!


Bizzare since DAs lead writer, is the author of the books. So I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing.

#17
RazorrX

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The books are written by David and thus are part of the lore.



Allistar IS the son of Maric and Fiona. Maric Had Allistar sent to Arl Eamon to be raised as per Fiona's request. Duncan looked in on Allistar his whole life, bringing word back to Maric and Fiona as he could. Given that Duncan is the way he is, I would not put it past him to have killed the actual maid and child in order to have Allistar have a background.



Allistar is told that Maric was a womanizer. That he had dalliances with the maid, etc. That story is slowly seeded around redcliff. Goldana could be a set up, paid to say the things she did if Allistar ever came to see her.



Arl Eamon has a hottie wife who decideds the bastard has to go. Arl Eamon has kept Allistar's true father hidden (in accordance with Fiona and Maric's wishes) even from her (Probably only his brother Teagan knew). Allistar is sent to the Chantry in order to placate said Shrew.



Duncan did not interfere until the Chantry was about to proceed and make Allistar addicted to Lirium in order to control him (final templar training). At this point, knowing that Allistar does not even like the Chantry, knowing that the darkspawn are beginnig to increase, and feeling the Blight may be coming (Perhaps with a bit of his own calling coming on) he conscripts Allistar away from the Chantry, saving him from that addiction.



Now Duncan could have hoped that Allistar had gained Fiona's Immunity to the Taint (She is the ONLY one who seems to have gotten it, and was that way when she gave birth, thus Allistar may very well be immune). Allistar takes the joining and becomes a Grey Warden, but is never really put in any danger. Duncan takes great care to keep him out of the main battles, etc.



So, yeah. He has lived his life under a false story of parantage.

#18
The Angry One

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Malsumis wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The books are supplementary material, if the book contradicts the game then the game wins.
Sorry book Loghain fanboys!


Bizzare since DAs lead writer, is the author of the books. So I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing.


And yet the contradictions are there.
Do you think he'd be the first author to contradict himself? Or he could simply have been overriden by some higher up in the game's production.
I for one would certainly do my best to ignore the whole "lol half-elves are human I flunked genetics" silliness.

#19
The Angry One

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RazorrX wrote...

The books are written by David and thus are part of the lore.


Book lore is overriden by higher media lore, this is how it always is in any fiction.

Allistar IS the son of Maric and Fiona. Maric Had Allistar sent to Arl Eamon to be raised as per Fiona's request. Duncan looked in on Allistar his whole life, bringing word back to Maric and Fiona as he could. Given that Duncan is the way he is, I would not put it past him to have killed the actual maid and child in order to have Allistar have a background.


Contradiction: Never even hinted at in-game, Alistair's sister.

Allistar is told that Maric was a womanizer. That he had dalliances with the maid, etc. That story is slowly seeded around redcliff. Goldana could be a set up, paid to say the things she did if Allistar ever came to see her.


Which would make the scene involving her cheap and pointless.

Now Duncan could have hoped that Allistar had gained Fiona's Immunity to the Taint (She is the ONLY one who seems to have gotten it, and was that way when she gave birth, thus Allistar may very well be immune). Allistar takes the joining and becomes a Grey Warden, but is never really put in any danger. Duncan takes great care to keep him out of the main battles, etc.


I really LOL at this notion. Half-elves inherit nothing from their elven parents... oh but Alistair is expected to inherit this immunity?
Which is it?

#20
SLPr0

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I think the potential of an inherited immunity to the taint is a possibility and a strong plot device for Alistair's future in any post Origin's presentation.



And higher media lore trumps the books the lore is based on? Not on your life. And definitely not with this game.



Alistair must be Fiona's child, its the only answer that makes sense. As stated, it is indicated in game statements by Alistair himself that he believes that Maric was quite lecherous....the books indicate this is the furthest thing from the truth in regards to Maric's actual character as a man. With Fiona's forced departure at the end of The Calling, and Maric having to give up yet another love in his life without much choice, and whats more, having to give up the child of that love too.....there is simply no way he would be in a frame of mind to fall in love with a serving maid at Redcliffe fast enough between the end of the Calling and the start of Origins, for Alistair to be the age he is in Origins.



Its undeniable, Alistair is Fiona's child, Ferelden is not only being ruled by a Grey Warden, but a Grey Warden born of an elven mother. And he doesn't even know it.

#21
Mesecina

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The Angry One wrote...
I for one would certainly do my best to ignore the whole "lol half-elves are human I flunked genetics" silliness.


I wouldn't exactly call reccessive traits silliness since they tend to exist in our everyday's world so I see no reason why an author couldn't establish human/elven as dominant/recessive features. Would be interesting to know if half-elf + half-elf that both look human could give birth to an elven looking child. But tjat's probably too much genetics for a fantasy world.
But silly? I don't think so or you can as well call the slow decline in red-haired, blonde and blue-eyed, Rh negative people in our world silly while at it

#22
RazorrX

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[quote]The Angry One wrote...

[quote]RazorrX wrote...

The books are written by David and thus are part of the lore.[/quote]

Book lore is overriden by higher media lore, this is how it always is in any fiction.[/quote]

Unless David says differently your opinion on what is cannon/lore and what is not does not hold any more bearing than mine.  :)


[quote]

[quote]Allistar IS the son of Maric and Fiona. Maric Had Allistar sent to Arl Eamon to be raised as per Fiona's request. Duncan looked in on Allistar his whole life, bringing word back to Maric and Fiona as he could. Given that Duncan is the way he is, I would not put it past him to have killed the actual maid and child in order to have Allistar have a background.[/quote]

Contradiction: Never even hinted at in-game, Alistair's sister.

[quote]Allistar is told that Maric was a womanizer. That he had dalliances with the maid, etc. That story is slowly seeded around redcliff. Goldana could be a set up, paid to say the things she did if Allistar ever came to see her.[/quote]
Which would make the scene involving her cheap and pointless.[/quote]

Pointless to you, not to Arl Eamon, Maric, Duncan, Etc.  She had probably heard that Arl took in the child, her mother was dead, then heard rumors about Maric having a bastard and tried to cash in.  Rather than tell her the truth they gave her a few coin and shipped her out.  There is no real proof that she is his sister.

[quote]

[quote]Now Duncan could have hoped that Allistar had gained Fiona's Immunity to the Taint (She is the ONLY one who seems to have gotten it, and was that way when she gave birth, thus Allistar may very well be immune). Allistar takes the joining and becomes a Grey Warden, but is never really put in any danger. Duncan takes great care to keep him out of the main battles, etc.[/quote]I really LOL at this notion. Half-elves inherit nothing from their elven parents... oh but Alistair is expected to inherit this immunity?
Which is it?[/quote]

Where do you get that they inherit NOTHING from the elven parent?  They do not become Elves.  There are no half elves.   Hair color, eye color, etc. could all be passed on.  Magic could be passed on. 

In this case her Immunity was caused by magic and I did say that that Duncan >>> HOPED<<< that he had inherited it.

[/quote]

#23
The Angry One

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Mesecina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
I for one would certainly do my best to ignore the whole "lol half-elves are human I flunked genetics" silliness.


I wouldn't exactly call reccessive traits silliness since they tend to exist in our everyday's world so I see no reason why an author couldn't establish human/elven as dominant/recessive features. Would be interesting to know if half-elf + half-elf that both look human could give birth to an elven looking child. But tjat's probably too much genetics for a fantasy world.
But silly? I don't think so or you can as well call the slow decline in red-haired, blonde and blue-eyed, Rh negative people in our world silly while at it


I do not call a distinctly smaller, thinner stature and large pointed ears that have remained so for generations "recessive".

#24
VnTale

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Actually i think it was said that those books are canon and would be carefull with game >books statement considering whole Dragon Age world is bit bigger project than just crpg, soon there will be pnp rulebook out with lots more lore than DA:O provides hopefully.

As for the genetics. Why not? Some races may have weaker genes its perfectly normal, there is no reason for inter race relationships to have simillar strength of genes whatsoever.Do not try to bring realworld genetics and biology into the picture since i dont really recall any scientific research about elven genetics lately. Its fantasy world with fantasy rules about how those races co-exist. For all we know about DA elves they once were pretty isolated longliving community that moslty wasted time on dragging disputes for centuries, without any natural immunities against human diseases.

#25
The Angry One

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RazorrX wrote...

Unless David says differently your opinion on what is cannon/lore and what is not does not hold any more bearing than mine.  :)


Look it's quite simple, if there's a contradiction, both sources can't be right.
Therefore one is wrong.

Now, which do you bet on being wrong? A supplementary novel of dubious quality who only a fraction of the playerbase has read, or the game itself which is the reason for the book's existance?

If you say the book.. well, that's your opinion. I'll stick with the media with the higher production values and most familiarity with Dragon Age fans, thanks.


Pointless to you, not to Arl Eamon, Maric, Duncan, Etc.  She had probably heard that Arl took in the child, her mother was dead, then heard rumors about Maric having a bastard and tried to cash in.  Rather than tell her the truth they gave her a few coin and shipped her out.  There is no real proof that she is his sister.


Let's see.. she was hired based on the off chance that Alistair may find out he has a sister and may want to meet her?
Does not compute.

Also, paid off? And WHO is going to believe some illiterate peasant who says their brother is a prince?
Furthermore, would she not be paid off to NOT talk about it instead of making some elaborate and silly lie?

You make Occam's Razor cry.

Where do you get that they inherit NOTHING from the elven parent?  They do not become Elves.  There are no half elves.   Hair color, eye color, etc. could all be passed on.  Magic could be passed on. 

In this case her Immunity was caused by magic and I did say that that Duncan >>> HOPED<<< that he had inherited it.


When the offspring fail to inherit the parent's most prominent traits then no I don't think they'd inherit anything, especially not some quasi-mystical immunity to a taint that's not inheritable in the first place.
If Duncan hoped for that, he might as well hope for giant pink elephants to drop from the sky and squash the Archdemon, it's about as plausable.