125 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesX]

Ducan is probably early 30s.

Alister is probably early 20s.

Ducan was probably around 10-12 when Alister is Born.

Calian is the older brother.  It is more likely that he is Fiona's son adopted by the Queen.

Modifié par JamesX, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:11 .

[vocalemuse]

Huh. If this is true, I kind of feel bad for having my elf girl turn down Alistair. xD Oh well, too late now.

[The Angry One]

VnTale wrote...

Actually i think it was said that those books are canon and would be carefull with game >books statement considering whole Dragon Age world is bit bigger project than just crpg, soon there will be pnp rulebook out with lots more lore than DA:O provides hopefully.

One could say Star Wars is much more than the movies, but I dare you to tell any Star Wars fan that any of the supplementary material overrides the movies. You'd get laughed out.

As for the genetics. Why not? Some races may have weaker genes its perfectly normal, there is no reason for inter race relationships to have simillar strength of genes whatsoever.Do not try to bring realworld genetics and biology into the picture since i dont really recall any scientific research about elven genetics lately. Its fantasy world with fantasy rules about how those races co-exist. For all we know about DA elves they once were pretty isolated longliving community that moslty wasted time on dragging disputes for centuries, without any natural immunities against human diseases.

Okay you can't just use the IT'S FANTASY flag to justify stupid inconsistencies.
Either traits are passed on through heredity or they aren't. You can't just say "oh all traits are passed on except this one because... I said so!". That destroys versimilitude.
If humans and elves were so incompatible that way through magic or whatever then they'd not be able to concieve at all.

[SLPr0]

You know given this line of thought compare Alistair to the other presented male characters of Ferelden such as Bryce and Fergus and Teagan....comparatively Alistair's features are much more aquiline and modestly angular in comparison to most of the rest of the male Ferelden humans you see which are far more broad boned and square jawed.

Whereas the elves of the Brecillian Forest and the Alienage all have sharp and angular features.

Potentially a subtle hint of his lineage? I mean I realize you can explain away making him "prettier" than the rest of the human male examples found around Ferelden because hes got a main character status but, there are several human women who are as pretty or attractive as Morrigan or Leliana is.

I think just looking at his face is a subtle hint.

[The Angry One]

SLPr0 wrote...

You know given this line of thought compare Alistair to the other presented male characters of Ferelden such as Bryce and Fergus and Teagan....comparatively Alistair's features are much more aquiline and modestly angular in comparison to most of the rest of the male Ferelden humans you see which are far more broad boned and square jawed.

Considering his features are near identical to Cailan's... no.. unless you're claiming he's a half-elf too.

[SLPr0]

JamesX wrote...

Ducan is probably early 30s.

Alister is probably early 20s.

Ducan was probably around 10-12 when Alister is Born.

Calian is the older brother.  It is more likely that he is Fiona's son adopted by the Queen.

Duncan is not in his early 30s in Origins, he is likely nearly 40 at the time. For Duncan to be in his early 30s in Origins, but to be just off the streets in his 20s in The Calling would make Loghain in Origins much younger than he is, and given the years spent between the Stolen Throne and Origins, Loghain must be in his late 40s at the very least if not well into his 50s.

Cailan is confirmed as the son of Maric and Rowan. His birth and lineage is not in question in the lore.

[SLPr0]

The Angry One wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...

You know given this line of thought compare Alistair to the other presented male characters of Ferelden such as Bryce and Fergus and Teagan....comparatively Alistair's features are much more aquiline and modestly angular in comparison to most of the rest of the male Ferelden humans you see which are far more broad boned and square jawed.

Considering his features are near identical to Cailan's... no.. unless you're claiming he's a half-elf too.

Facially they have similarities but Cailan has a much broader jaw and squarer chin more commonly seen amongst the rest of the male humans of Ferelden.

[The Angry One]

I've taken a direct look at both Alistair and Cailan's headmorphs in the toolset, the chins are nearly identical, Alistair's jaw looks somewhat softer but all in all they are very similar, the differences pointing more to Alistair being younger.



If his features were that out of the ordinary, don't you think it'd be pointed out by someone in game?

[SLPr0]

The Angry One wrote...

I've taken a direct look at both Alistair and Cailan's headmorphs in the toolset, the chins are nearly identical, Alistair's jaw looks somewhat softer but all in all they are very similar, the differences pointing more to Alistair being younger.

If his features were that out of the ordinary, don't you think it'd be pointed out by someone in game?

What I'm saying is they're very subtle feature differences. Not something anyones going to take note of...but potentially sneaky nods to his true "Origin" from the developers.

And if you've looked at the head meshes for both I'm sure you've noticed the difference in cheekbone structure as well.

Not saying this is de facto, its merely speculation in regards to his features, I'm more sure on the de facto reality of Alistair's mother being Fiona.

But as they say, de facto is not de jure, so...we will have to see if this is ever revealed to be true.

[The Angry One]

I honestly don't see anything about Alistair's features to seperate him from other Ferelden men other than he's more handsome as he's meant to be.



In my opinion the whole half-elf = human thing was made up to shoehorn Fiona in as Alistair's mother without giving the game designers a headache about Alistair's looks. Or perhaps the design was already set.

Either way it doesn't sit well with me.

[Mesecina]

The Angry One wrote...

Mesecina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
I for one would certainly do my best to ignore the whole "lol half-elves are human I flunked genetics" silliness.

I wouldn't exactly call reccessive traits silliness since they tend to exist in our everyday's world so I see no reason why an author couldn't establish human/elven as dominant/recessive features. Would be interesting to know if half-elf + half-elf that both look human could give birth to an elven looking child. But tjat's probably too much genetics for a fantasy world.
But silly? I don't think so or you can as well call the slow decline in red-haired, blonde and blue-eyed, Rh negative people in our world silly while at it

I do not call a distinctly smaller, thinner stature and large pointed ears that have remained so for generations "recessive".

Since I'm not sure you understand the meaning of reccessive in context of genetics:

recessive   /rɪs'esɪv/
A recessive gene produces a particular characteristic only if a person has two of these genes, one from each parent. Compare dominant.


Hence yes distinctly smaller, thinner stature and large pointed ears that have remained so for generations and disappear when paired with alleles for round ears and human- like stature are exactly what would be called recessive in our world's genetics especially taking into account that elves have always lived in pretty secluded communities and that cross-breeding has been frowned upon from both sides.
It doesn't mean however that a child inherits nothing of the elven parent ...
God dammnit I feel almost silly arguing a fantasy world genetics back here

Modifié par Mesecina, 23 novembre 2009 - 04:02 .

[SLPr0]

The Angry One wrote...

I honestly don't see anything about Alistair's features to seperate him from other Ferelden men other than he's more handsome as he's meant to be.

In my opinion the whole half-elf = human thing was made up to shoehorn Fiona in as Alistair's mother without giving the game designers a headache about Alistair's looks. Or perhaps the design was already set.
Either way it doesn't sit well with me.

 But why is he handsome as hes meant to be in such glaringly obvious a manner comparatively?

As stated there are multiple human Ferelden women that are comparbly as attractive as Leliana or Morrigan in their own ways....but literally all Ferelden human men are blockheaded in nature...then theres Cailan and Alistair as the only exceptions and even Cailan leans towards the blockheaded features more than Alistair does.

Regardless getting stuck on a debate over facial features is sort of pointless, it is entirely possible that he was just given utmost attention to ensure he was a visually appealing as a romantic interest for female players or, players playing females.

But yes the Thedas world indicating that human/elven crossbreeding merely produces humans....is a new look at an old quandry in regards to the perpetual human fascination of having sex with elves.

To be honest I sort of like it, the notion of a "half elf" always annoyed me, you don't see any half elves in Tolkien, even the child of Arwen's dreams is notably human in appearrance.

So I was actually quite happy with the finding at the end of The Calling that they tied up this question for Thedas quite nicely...as I'd been wondering up to then where all the "half elves" were. Quite obviously plenty of humans and elves had been romantically or lustfully involved (Yourself for example, if you play a male human noble, get to bed a pretty little elf serving maid before the Human noble origin concludes, if you think to arrange it)...so the missing "half-elves" was a question that was in my mind up to realizing that interbreeding simply produced human children.

I wonder if it goes the other way around if its a elven father and a human mother? But then, what woman would want to have sex with a Ferelden elf? Even Zeveran would be a stretch...I'd think.

[LdyShayna]

The Angry One wrote...
In my opinion the whole half-elf = human thing was made up to shoehorn Fiona in as Alistair's mother without giving the game designers a headache about Alistair's looks. Or perhaps the design was already set.
Either way it doesn't sit well with me.

The design was set many, many years ago, and was meant to be part of the conflict between elves and men in the setting.  As far as I know, it was decided a long time before The Calling was a twinkle in David's eye.

[The Angry One]

Mesecina wrote...

Since I'm not sure you understand the meaning of reccessive in context of genetics:

recessive   /rɪs'esɪv/
A recessive gene produces a particular characteristic only if a person has two of these genes, one from each parent. Compare dominant.


Hence yes distinctly smaller, thinner stature and large pointed ears that have remained so for generations and disappear when paired with alleles for round ears and human- like stature are exactly what would be called recessive in our world's genetics especially taking into account that elves have always lived in pretty secluded communities and that cross-breeding has been frowned upon from both sides.
It doesn't mean however that a child inherits nothing of the elven parent ...
God dammnit I feel almost silly arguing a fantasy world genetics back here

Yes and it just so happens this recessive trait is present in all elves so it's never bred out across multiple generations?
Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Xaila]

The Angry One wrote...

The books are supplementary material, if the book contradicts the game then the game wins.
Sorry book Loghain fanboys!

Normally this would be true, but David Gaider has said on these forums himself that the books are canon.  Which complicates things a little

[The Angry One]

Xaila wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The books are supplementary material, if the book contradicts the game then the game wins.
Sorry book Loghain fanboys!

Normally this would be true, but David Gaider has said on these forums himself that the books are canon.  Which complicates things a little

Irrelevant, both can be canon. The game is simply higher canon than the book.

[ReubenLiew]

So we're taking the route of everything related or with the stamp of approval is canon, but are usually colored with personal perspective and opinion or even outright lies and propoganda, ala 40k?

[The Angry One]

ReubenLiew wrote...

So we're taking the route of everything related or with the stamp of approval is canon, but are usually colored with personal perspective and opinion or even outright lies and propoganda, ala 40k?

Good lord I hope not, nothing comes close to the meandering mess that is 40k canon.
Well, maybe World of Warcraft.

[ReubenLiew]

Yeah that's true, leaves a bad taste in my mouth with some of the sheer nonsense in their books sometimes.

World of Warcraft doesn't have canon, they have silly putty passed around in a circle that passes for lore.

[The Angry One]

Still it could be worse. I remember the days where fanboys would actually insist that Michael Kirkbride's fanfiction on Morrowind was canon.

I don't care if he was one of the writers for Morrowind! He quit Bethesda! His scribblings don't mean a damn thing! Didn't help that Kirkbride himself was a narcisisstic lunatic who revelled in fanboy attention mind you.

[Kohaku]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Yeah that's true, leaves a bad taste in my mouth with some of the sheer nonsense in their books sometimes.
World of Warcraft doesn't have canon, they have silly putty passed around in a circle that passes for lore.

Thank goodness I'm not the only person who agrees with this. I thought I was going insane trying to not only follow it, but make it work when they constantly change it like dirty diapers.

[TimelordDC]

The Angry One wrote...

Xaila wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The books are supplementary material, if the book contradicts the game then the game wins.
Sorry book Loghain fanboys!

Normally this would be true, but David Gaider has said on these forums himself that the books are canon.  Which complicates things a little

Irrelevant, both can be canon. The game is simply higher canon than the book.

Actually, David Gaider has mentioned in these forums that the Codex entries are not actual canon lore since most of it is what you hear from other people or what you learn during investigations -> not necessarily the truth.
So, yeah, the book trumps the game in terms of canon.

[The Angry One]

TimelordDC wrote...

Actually, David Gaider has mentioned in these forums that the Codex entries are not actual canon lore since most of it is what you hear from other people or what you learn during investigations -> not necessarily the truth.
So, yeah, the book trumps the game in terms of canon.

That is a very poor argument, and it wreaks of bias to be brutally honest.
Given the fact that the books wouldn't even exist without the game, the game's info comes first

Edit: And I'm not even talking about the Codex, as opposed to events in-game, like Alistair's sister.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[TimelordDC]

I wasn't arguing; just pointing out that Bioware itself thinks book trumps the game.

The books might be in existence because of the game but since we have a whole PnP spin-off and other books and the game has to be open enough for the player choices (which the books don't have to be); the books being canon makes sense.

[ReubenLiew]

I wouldn't necessarily argue that fact for fact for every codex entry, of course, since a lot of the codex is written through a perspective of a scholar and not of a God-view books tend to drag along their heels.



Then again I've seen books totally rip everything you already know about the lore into tiny, tiny shreds and fart them out, so I'd just take everything in the game and the books with a large jug of salt and, as Flemeth says, Believe what we want to believe.