125 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

The books are historical, so have little to do with player choices.

The fact remains the books contradict events within the game that happen regardless of player choice (that you choose to visit Alistair's sister or not has no bearing on that he actually has one for example).



By the way, books that directly contradict player choices are widely disliked by both the player base and game developers, KotOR being a prime example of this. Neither the players or BioWare appreciated Lucasfilm giving free reign to some idiot author to trample all over our choices.

[Ulicus]

James Ex: I was under the impression that Duncan was in his late forties at the very least, given that he's supposedly nearing the point in time where he's feeling the Call to the Deep Roads. He could very well have been in his early fifties.

Same goes for Riordian. Especially since you can refer to him (jokingly?) as "old man" when you first meet him.

Back on topic:

The possibility of Alistair being the son of this elven mage is... interesting. I do get the feeling that this may have been an idea that Gaider had later on and is now trying to "shoehorn" in (beyond Alistair's fascination with the magical, what hints are there? How elaborate was that amulet, again?) but I think, on the whole, I quite like it.  Increasingly so, the more I think on it, in fact.

As for the issue () of human/elf pairings, I can't see why it should be a big deal. I don't imagine that the Fade can be explained scientifically, either, but I'll accept it.

In fact, this actually raises some interesting questions (and maybe even suggests some answers) regarding the elves, their relation to humans and the "quickening" they claim to have experienced upon encountering them. For one thing, if merely being in close proximity to humanity makes them "more human", to some extent, one begins to suspect that there's something about human "Being" (for lack of a better term) that alters elven "Being" to align with it, somewhat.

And if that's just what happens when they stand in the same room for long enough, one can see why human offspring from human/elf nookie might not be quite so out-there.

Modifié par Ulicus, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:08 .

[panic686original]

SLPr0 wrote...

Trelow-LMG wrote...

I didn't think magic use had been determined to be hereditary.

I don't believe its shown to be hereditary in any of the lore available so far, but regardless of that it could be a concern...a child born to a Grey Warden Mage and all, it was just something I was throwing out there as a thought.

Actually there is information somewhere in the game that the Tevinter Imperium kept a record of all the families that had produced mages.

[Wynne]

Alistair is the son of Fiona. Goldanna is not related to Maric or Fiona, but to the woman Alistair thought was his mother. Elven size and ears are probably recessive and only carry over when two people carrying the gene mate like red hair, elves keep to their own kind because their race is dying out and elf-human unions have only ever been seen to produce human children, therefore everybody sees them as human, there you go. Then again, it's a fantasy universe of magic anyway.

I'm sort of confused by why anybody is confused.

Mesecina wrote...

Would be
interesting to know if half-elf + half-elf that both look human could
give birth to an elven looking child. But tjat's probably too much
genetics for a fantasy world.

Oh, I disagree. I think it'd be fascinating. I mean, elves don't really sleep with humans much, so imagine the waves it would make if enough "transgressions" happened and elves realized they can, in fact, continue their race by mating with a human now and then.

Regardless, it's interesting to contemplate, and I thank you for saying all you did about genetics.

SLPr0 wrote...

And higher media lore trumps the books the lore is based on? Not on your life. And definitely not with this game.

Hogwash, people, all the discussion over this. It's all David Gaider, working in concert with the other writers. If anything doesn't match up, the retconning is in his ball park. There's no game vs. books, there is only Gaider vs. Gaider. Gaider always wins... and loses.

[LdyShayna]

The Angry One wrote...

The fact remains the books contradict events within the game that happen regardless of player choice (that you choose to visit Alistair's sister or not has no bearing on that he actually has one for example).

I disagree.

Alistair BELIEVES that Goldanna is his sister because of who he was TOLD his mother was (who 'conveniently' died in child birth).  His sister is quite willing to believe that ALSO because she thinks she will benefit from it.  Fiona specifically asks that her child never know she was the mother, and what better cover for Alistair than to be placed as a sort of changeling for a poor maid and her child that both died in childbirth?  Assuming Alistair is indeed Fiona and Maric's son, I see nothing in the game that makes this impossible or even vaguely far-fetched for this to be the case.

It's quite possible that the only people in the world who knew the truth about Fiona was Fiona, Maric and Duncan, and Eamon only knew that the mother of the child didn't want to be known.  What does that leave?  Those present at the maid and her babe's death?  They would likely be easy to bribe.

[Mesecina]

The Angry One wrote...

Mesecina wrote...

Since I'm not sure you understand the meaning of reccessive in context of genetics:

recessive   /rɪs'esɪv/
A recessive gene produces a particular characteristic only if a person has two of these genes, one from each parent. Compare dominant.


Hence yes distinctly smaller, thinner stature and large pointed ears that have remained so for generations and disappear when paired with alleles for round ears and human- like stature are exactly what would be called recessive in our world's genetics especially taking into account that elves have always lived in pretty secluded communities and that cross-breeding has been frowned upon from both sides.
It doesn't mean however that a child inherits nothing of the elven parent ...
God dammnit I feel almost silly arguing a fantasy world genetics back here

Yes and it just so happens this recessive trait is present in all elves so it's never bred out across multiple generations?
Sorry, I don't buy it.

That's exactly the point - if the reccessive variant is omnipresent in a population there's no way in hell it can breed out - which explains for red hair and blue eyes as well as Rh - of Celtic populations or some rare genetic diseases found only in Ashke**** Jews or other secluded communities. The reccesive traits WILL STAY as long as there's no "outsiders" included in breeding.

For example if everyone in your family is red-haired, blue eyed and fair skinned and you "mate "with someone of the same lineage - you cannot produce olive skinned, black haired children. Now replace red haired with pointy eared and you got the answer.

Whereas if we take your lineage from above and in this case you go ahead and "mate" with a Latino type that has olive skin, black hair and brown eyes running for generations (let's assume he's fully dominant for it because if we take heterozygotes into account things just start getting too complicated) these features will "overwrite" your red hair/pointy ears/blue eyes.

[Isaantia]

I'm with Wynne and Shayna on this one. Alistair has been lied to, these lies are part of the codex.



I wonder if we'll ever venture to Weisshaupt and meet Fiona. Or will Gaider kill off yet another awesome women character before we get a chance to meet her? ;D

[The Angry One]

LdyShayna wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The fact remains the books contradict events within the game that happen regardless of player choice (that you choose to visit Alistair's sister or not has no bearing on that he actually has one for example).

I disagree.

Alistair BELIEVES that Goldanna is his sister because of who he was TOLD his mother was (who 'conveniently' died in child birth).  His sister is quite willing to believe that ALSO because she thinks she will benefit from it.  Fiona specifically asks that her child never know she was the mother, and what better cover for Alistair than to be placed as a sort of changeling for a poor maid and her child that both died in childbirth?  Assuming Alistair is indeed Fiona and Maric's son, I see nothing in the game that makes this impossible or even vaguely far-fetched for this to be the case.

It's quite possible that the only people in the world who knew the truth about Fiona was Fiona, Maric and Duncan, and Eamon only knew that the mother of the child didn't want to be known.  What does that leave?  Those present at the maid and her babe's death?  They would likely be easy to bribe.

None of that requires them to manufacture a fake half-sister on the off chance that Alistair might be interested in seeing if he has siblings.

[The Angry One]

Mesecina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Mesecina wrote...

Since I'm not sure you understand the meaning of reccessive in context of genetics:

recessive   /rɪs'esɪv/
A recessive gene produces a particular characteristic only if a person has two of these genes, one from each parent. Compare dominant.


Hence yes distinctly smaller, thinner stature and large pointed ears that have remained so for generations and disappear when paired with alleles for round ears and human- like stature are exactly what would be called recessive in our world's genetics especially taking into account that elves have always lived in pretty secluded communities and that cross-breeding has been frowned upon from both sides.
It doesn't mean however that a child inherits nothing of the elven parent ...
God dammnit I feel almost silly arguing a fantasy world genetics back here

Yes and it just so happens this recessive trait is present in all elves so it's never bred out across multiple generations?
Sorry, I don't buy it.

That's exactly the point - if the reccessive variant is omnipresent in a population there's no way in hell it can breed out - which explains for red hair and blue eyes as well as Rh - of Celtic populations or some rare genetic diseases found only in Ashke**** Jews or other secluded communities. The reccesive traits WILL STAY as long as there's no "outsiders" included in breeding.

For example if everyone in your family is red-haired, blue eyed and fair skinned and you "mate "with someone of the same lineage - you cannot produce olive skinned, black haired children. Now replace red haired with pointy eared and you got the answer.

Whereas if we take your lineage from above and in this case you go ahead and "mate" with a Latino type that has olive skin, black hair and brown eyes running for generations (let's assume he's fully dominant for it because if we take heterozygotes into account things just start getting too complicated) these features will "overwrite" your red hair/pointy ears/blue eyes.

Except those kind of traits are never omnipresent. Not every member of a given population has red hair or what have you even if they're enclosed. The majority may do, but not all. Here on the other hand every single elf has distinctive ears.

[LdyShayna]

The Angry One wrote...
None of that requires them to manufacture a fake half-sister on the off chance that Alistair might be interested in seeing if he has siblings.

Who would be manufacturing a fake half-sister?  BioWare?  I suppose they included this to give some insight into Alistair's character (how he longs for a 'proper' family), and give the PC a chance to influence him on it.

Within the game world, there is no manufacturing involved.  The woman they claimed to be his mother happened to have an older daughter, one they never brought to his attention because they might not have felt it was important, but Alistair's desire for a family drove him to research this and uncovered her.

[Isaantia]

The Angry One wrote...

None of that requires them to manufacture a fake half-sister on the off chance that Alistair might be interested in seeing if he has siblings.

Not required, but makes a wonderful plot device. :innocent:

[Mesecina]

The Angry One wrote...

Except those kind of traits are never omnipresent. Not every member of a given population has red hair or what have you even if they're enclosed. The majority may do, but not all. Here on the other hand every single elf has distinctive ears.

I have a feeling you disagree just for the sake of disagreeing so I'm giving up.
Let me just say that in this case it's a racial feature - so that's like saying "Not every elf has pointy ears" and the nature of alleles doesn't really matter as long as they don't get combined with another race. You can also say "not every Black is black" for the matter and in this case you'd even be right but that's advanced genetics

And let's not forget it's fantasy world

[The Angry One]

LdyShayna wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
None of that requires them to manufacture a fake half-sister on the off chance that Alistair might be interested in seeing if he has siblings.

Who would be manufacturing a fake half-sister?  BioWare?  I suppose they included this to give some insight into Alistair's character (how he longs for a 'proper' family), and give the PC a chance to influence him on it.

Within the game world, there is no manufacturing involved.  The woman they claimed to be his mother happened to have an older daughter, one they never brought to his attention because they might not have felt it was important, but Alistair's desire for a family drove him to research this and uncovered her.

Well that's just so very convenient that they had this serving girl die at exactly the same time and that they chose to pin it on her, and they just so happened to have enough records of this girl who gave birth to a nobody that Alistair could use to track down his sister who really isn't. <_<

[The Angry One]

Mesecina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Except those kind of traits are never omnipresent. Not every member of a given population has red hair or what have you even if they're enclosed. The majority may do, but not all. Here on the other hand every single elf has distinctive ears.

I have a feeling you disagree just for the sake of disagreeing so I'm giving up.
Let me just say that in this case it's a racial feature - so that's like saying "Not every elf has pointy ears" and the nature of alleles doesn't really matter as long as they don't get combined with another race. You can also say "not every Black is black" for the matter and in this case you'd even be right but that's advanced genetics

And let's not forget it's fantasy world

The point is we're not dealing with red hair or freckles, we're dealing with a prominent feature that every single member of this distinct race has had over generations.

Fantasy world or no, I frown upon plot devices made because you just HAVE to insert your plot into a game world that doesn't really carry it well.

[jsog]

The Angry One wrote...

Except those kind of traits are never omnipresent. Not every member of a given population has red hair or what have you even if they're enclosed. The majority may do, but not all. Here on the other hand every single elf has distinctive ears.

That is because the alleles that 'code' for those traits are not the only alleles at those loci (...kinda genetic locations) that exist in any population in the world.  There is too much cross breeding right now to draw any comparison between elves & humans in a fantasy setting, but you can look at the hair colors amongst native tribes in various parts of the world and note how little variation there is in hair color.  What he was saying is that IF such a population existed in which ALL members had red hair, and always had red hair, and had never produced offspring with an individual WITHOUT red hair, then barring a mutation (which is almost certainly how hair color got started anyway, so it does happen), you would always have children with degrees of red hair.  Note that most of these are poor examples because the phenotypes associated with color have a degree of plasticity to them based on environment, and are often controlled by multiple loci, but that is neither here nor there.

If we do use the idea of genetics being responsible, then this would indeed suggest there is some chance that down the line, two humans could mate with one another to produce elf ears, but we never see this as far as I know. Also, I disagree with the statement that there is not much interbreeding - I think it's pretty clear many humans have "a thing" for elves, and as far as I know, there is not a widespread practice of abortion among elves who have been impregnated by humans... but I didn't read the books, so if it is implied there, I apologize for my ignorance.  The child of Fiona and Maric (which, btw, is likely Alaistair in my opinion, but others are free to disagree) is the only canon example I know of being born as such, but there have got to be more unless the various circumstances in the origin stories are much more rare than one is lead to believe.

While it may be genetics that control human/elven halfbreeds being completely human, it's a lot easier just to assume something about mystical whosamwatsits that just mean that the children of elves and humans are just more like humans.

[jsog]

On the half-sister:

A decent explanation, albeit a morbid one, is that a woman was chosen who was pregnant with child, and the plan may have been to swap her child with Alastair somehow. When she perished in child birth, this added a bit of complication and required that Eamon be involved to raise the child. This explains the unintended half sister quite easily imo.

[lv12medic]

Darn... I saw somewhere in the wall of text (love that phrase) the OP mentioning about it being an odd choice for Duncan to have Allistair go through the joining process with its potential to kill people.  So, if Fiona IS Allistair's real mother, she had gone through the joining and has tainted blood before concieving Maric's child.  So, also assuming that the whole pregnancy cycle works technically the same as our world, the fetus developing is completely dependent on the Mother's blood which in this case would already be tainted.  So since the child survived, the baby has to either already be tainted or has built up an independent immunity to it so that when Allistair went through his joining, he may have had a gaurenteed chance of surviving the Joining process.  It might not have been such an odd idea after all for Duncan to recruit Allistair into the Grey Wardens.
So... now that my head hurts... In the game they talk about how there aren't a lot of women in the Grey Wardens (especially when running around Ostagar and talking with Daveth, Jory and Allistair), it makes me wonder if its just coincidence or some strange reason to it.

[The Angry One]

The thing about interbreeding is that it's clear humans *do* like elves, and while elves in the cities try to remain isolated, *the humans won't let them* so where are all these humans with elven parents?

Are they *all* taken away? Possibly, but it's never mentioned and I for one am not inclined to come up with justifications for lazy writing, which is by the way what a lot of you are doing with regards to Alistair's sister.



Sure you can make up a million reasons as to why she isn't really his sister. The babies were swapped, her mother was a patsy, she was bribed, space aliens from Zeta Reticuli altered everyone's memories.

Doesn't change that this isn't even given lip-service in game where as far as anyone's concerned, Goldanna is Alistair's half-sister.

[LdyShayna]

The Angry One wrote...
Well that's just so very convenient that they had this serving girl die at exactly the same time and that they chose to pin it on her, and they just so happened to have enough records of this girl who gave birth to a nobody that Alistair could use to track down his sister who really isn't. <_<

Even with magical healing, I imagine these sorts of complications with childbirth happen fairly regularly in Ferelden, and since the Powers That Be would be looking for SOME way to introduce him, they likely took advantage of it.  Otherwise, I imagine their plan was to have his mother be a complete mystery.  An existing 'mother' would raise fewer questions, though.

Even if there are detailed birth records among the people of Ferelden (which I rather doubt for the commoners), it wouldn't require any paperwork for him to find out about her.  Once he was free to do so (free from the arl's household and the Chantry), all he needed was to have someone ask around about this maid to find out what family might be remaining.  Surely he has SOME friends among the people of Redcliffe who would be willing to do this for him?  It might be of events twenty years ago or so, but it isn't really that far-fetched that someone asking questions of the old neighbors or 'old folk' in Redcliffe would find a lead on the daughter.

I understand that you really hate her existence for some reason, but I just don't think it's nearly as much of a stretch as you seem to believe.

The elf thing has been known about for years and hashed out on the old forums a lot.  There were some stabs at offering a scientific explanation for it, but frankly, there isn't one.   I certainly don't believe there's a cause and effect related to Alistair's parentage, though, but has always been presented as part of the setting backdrop involving the conflict between humans and elves.  Why would they bother to make such huge changes to the game world for this sort of thing when the book wasn't even written? 

Doesn't change that this isn't even given lip-service in game where as far as anyone's concerned, Goldanna is Alistair's half-sister.

So?  The people who knew are dead.

Modifié par LdyShayna, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:08 .

[jsog]

lv12medic, I do not think it is a strange reason... I think one potential reason for it exists in the Orzammar area. Since this thread is not specifically marked with spoilers, we can leave it at that. Suffice to say, though, that requires more than just the joining ritual. You make a good point, though. It is possible the Taint can pass from mother to son in some form, though Alastair never mentions any of the Grey Warden specific stuff happening before his joining, so this seems somewhat unlikely. Perhaps Duncan just took a gamble, knowing this was the only way he could keep an eye on Alastair.

TheAngryOne:
I agree it is unusual that there is so little talk of halfbreeds, but there are numerous explanations for that, ranging from elven mothers aborting to pregnancies between humans and elves being exceedingly rare. We simply are not informed of much in regards to halfbreeds.

In the game, Alastair believes Goldanna is his half-sister, but this does not make it true in the lore in any way. It just means he believes it. The fact the books lead in to Maric's bastard tends to give some credence to the idea Alastair is that son, but that alone doesn't confirm it.

I do not think it is lazy writing to have Goldanna only be created to cause him angst when she isn't really his half sister, and I'm not even sure how you feel it is. In fact, her talks and stuff lend even more credence to the man who impregnated her mother not really being Maric, since the way she described that man was not at all as Maric has been portrayed in the novels as far as I understand it. This, combined with the novels, indicates a "baby swap" that went a bit wrong.

Modifié par jsog, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:10 .

[Leg_lamp]

I didn't read the books, but I like this idea, and actually don't find it too implausible with the game world. Regardless of these genetics discussions, someone said the book says the baby was born looking human, so I can take that for what it is worth. I don't think we met any crossbreed children in the game, so all this genetics talk is speculation. What I do find implausible though is why wouldn't whoever just tell him anyways who his mom is, even though the mom wanted to keep it a secret. Why stop at just telling him he is king, especially since he is a Gray Warden now?



I can also believe that Alistair and Goldanna would believe they are siblings, mistaken or not. Whether it was a conspiracy to conveniently set up this maid as Alistair's mother, or a coincidence I don't know. Goldanna raised the rabble after her mom died, so maybe it was this that may have started the rumor? Was it stated anywhere who told Alistair about Goldanna?

[Tielis]

What the hell? Are you people conveniently forgetting that Rowan was long dead when Maric hooked up with Fiona, and that Alistair was born and "hidden away" before Rowan died?



Alistair would be about 15 or 16 if he was Fiona's son.

[Ghrelt]

I think the Angry One is hung up on the fact that human-elven pairings produce human offspring. I believe this is the wording used in the game, so it's understandable. The rest of us paraphrased it to mean that human-elven pairings produce offspring with a human appearance. I think the wording is misleading.

[Ulicus]

Tielis wrote...

What the hell? Are you people conveniently forgetting that Rowan was long dead when Maric hooked up with Fiona, and that Alistair was born and "hidden away" before Rowan died?

Alistair would be about 15 or 16 if he was Fiona's son.

Oh, really? Well, that certainly changes things. I've not read The Calling... I had assumed it took place twenty/twenty-five years before the game proper, given what people were saying.

[jsog]

Tielis wrote...

What the hell? Are you people conveniently forgetting that Rowan was long dead when Maric hooked up with Fiona, and that Alistair was born and "hidden away" before Rowan died?

Alistair would be about 15 or 16 if he was Fiona's son.

Without the book, I can't comment on this exactly, but I was under the impression the events in the book took place roughly 20 years before the game, which would put Alastair at pretty much the right age I think.