125 réponses à ce sujet

[LdyShayna]

Tielis wrote...

What the hell? Are you people conveniently forgetting that Rowan was long dead when Maric hooked up with Fiona, and that Alistair was born and "hidden away" before Rowan died?

Alistair would be about 15 or 16 if he was Fiona's son.

I don't believe so.  Though I can go back to David's posts and double check, they specifically said in the game that the Grey Wardens were officially returned to Ferelden about 20 years ago, not 15 or 16.  This seems more in line with the age Alistair appears to be.

[RazorrX]

LdyShayna wrote...

Tielis wrote...

What the hell? Are you people conveniently forgetting that Rowan was long dead when Maric hooked up with Fiona, and that Alistair was born and "hidden away" before Rowan died?

Alistair would be about 15 or 16 if he was Fiona's son.

I don't believe so.  Though I can go back to David's posts and double check, they specifically said in the game that the Grey Wardens were officially returned to Ferelden about 20 years ago, not 15 or 16.  This seems more in line with the age Alistair appears to be.

Exactly.  Alistair was born just prior to Duncan taking the position as the FIRST head Warden in Ferelden.  This was after the adventure in the Deep Roads.  Alistair is the correct age.

[jsog]

From one of the Dragon Age Wiki's:

Exiled from Ferelden 200 years ago, when their then commander's personal bonds led to the Grey Wardens involvement in a plot to overthrow the king, they were only readmitted 20 years ago by King Maric Theirin.

So... 20 years ago.

[syllogi]

jsog wrote...

On the half-sister:
A decent explanation, albeit a morbid one, is that a woman was chosen who was pregnant with child, and the plan may have been to swap her child with Alastair somehow. When she perished in child birth, this added a bit of complication and required that Eamon be involved to raise the child. This explains the unintended half sister quite easily imo.

Right, and look at the situation from Goldanna's point of view *if* this was the case:  she was a child, living with her mother in Redcliffe, when King Maric or one of his representatives comes to talk with the mother, who seems sad or upset after that.  A few months later, Goldanna's mother gives birth, and immediately Goldanna is cast out of her home with a little money.  She is understandably bitter and angry, comes to her own conclusions about who fathered the child, and blames Maric and the baby for her mother's death, along with the hard life she must have had afterwards.

No wonder she became such a shrew.

[Leg_lamp]

I also like this idea, because it would sort of explain one of things that has always bothered me about the plot, which is they let Alistair be a Gray Warden to begin with. I had to suspend disbelief, that they made a prince (even if he was a bastard) risk his life going through the Joining and in Archdemon battles. If this is true, then I would find his is being a gray warden more believable, because his mom was one.

[KalosCast]

Dragon Age: Origins was written by Bioware

The Calling was not written by Bioware

Dragon Age is a Bioware IP

Therefore: the codex is right.

[Vicious]

The Codex is written by the Chantry who are not exactly unbiased. This was done on purpose to put more ambiguity into the game.

Anyway the first page of this thread after the OP is moronic. There are NO HALF ELVES in Thedas, in that there are no not-quite-as-knifey-eared not-quite-as-tree-loving not-accepted-by-anyone offspring.

This is not DnD, so suck it.

Modifié par Vicious, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[KalosCast]

Vicious wrote...

The Codex is written by the Chantry who are not exactly unbiased. This was done on purpose to put more ambiguity into the game.

Not your character notes, this histories are, but obvious meta-game things like spell combos and controls definitely are not, and your character bio stuff comes from what you learn in the game's plot... that Bioware wrote.

[Vicious]

Yeah thats true certain things are flat out metagame stuff, you are correct ser!



Anyway that said this is just a dangling plotline never to be referred back to. Maric liked sex. a lot. He probably has all kinds of little bastards we don't know about, Alistair just happened to be the only one who maintained royal ties.



At this point it is a triviality if his life was a lie.

[syllogi]

KalosCast wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins was written by Bioware
The Calling was not written by Bioware
Dragon Age is a Bioware IP
Therefore: the codex is right.

Bioware is not an individual.  David Gaider is the lead writer on this game.  He wrote the books.  This is not a case where they outsourced the novels to someone who may or may not have taken liberties with lore (see:  the atrocities known as the Baldur's Gate novels).  Obviously he has to consult with others when writing, but generally, I would take his novels as canon. 

[Mesecina]

Genetics aside and on-topic for a change

One thing that always bothered me about Alistair's story is: if he was truly the son of the maid in Redcliffe and Maric born before Rowan's death then why on earth would Maric "hide" him with Rowan's brothers?!

Surely that seems like the dumbest thing to do especially taking into account Eamon and Teagan (who was probably to young to have a say in the matter) are presented as honorable and just people who probably wouldn't encourage Maric's bed time adventures with different maids and then even covering up for him while Rowan was alive.

Modifié par Mesecina, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:32 .

[Lianaar]

I would pull some attention to Flemeth's story. Stories. There are 3 official stories which contradict one another.

If you can not decide what the truth is, then it is because the sources are contradicting each other or lacking. I believe on purpose. Which is good. It gives room for conflict and differentiation. It makes you inspect the game and its events from different perspectives of what ifs. I personally value that. It makes different characters and different ideas behind them all valid. Even if they contradict each other. You can see Alistair as a hero or as a coward, as an heir or as a traitor. And you can pull up argumentations which validate your view.

[Dauphin2]

SLPr0 wrote...

So with that in mind it is impossible to accept that Alistair is anything other than the second child of Maric, concieved with Fiona in the Deep Roads. To believe otherwise is to believe there is a third heir of Maric somewhere in Ferelden, something Duncan nor any other character in the game alludes to.

So just because no character alludes to it, it can't be true?  I'm guessing you've never watched a single movie or read a single book in the last 100 years.  That's how twists always happen. 

"Oh yeah, there was a 3rd son, which I completely forgot about, until just now..."  

[Elwoodw]

If true do you think he could get that 15 gold back from Goldanna?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The Angry One wrote...

And yet the contradictions are there.
Do you think he'd be the first author to contradict himself? Or he could simply have been overriden by some higher up in the game's production.

Which contradictions are you referring to?

I for one would certainly do my best to ignore the whole "lol half-elves are human I flunked genetics" silliness.

Why? All it takes is for human genetics, in particular the rounded ear since that's the only seeming way to tell an elf from a human in this game, to be dominant over elven ones. The very fact that the two "races" are already interfertile means they're incredibly close to begin with, in much the same way Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon was. 

Basically, make the pointy ears recessive and you've got nearly every offspring of a human and an elf being functionally human, unless the human parent also happened to have the recessive knife-ear gene lurking somewhere in his/her genetic code. And even then there's only a, what, one in four chance of the offspring not having the dominant round-ear gene? 

[JamesX]

Actually there is major difference between humans and elves (as noted by their starting out stat differences). Elves are also smaller and skinner than humans (on average).

But all this talk of genetics are just odd. For all we know Elves might just be protohuman and the ambient amount of Lyrium in the upper atmosphere will change all elves who aren't completely pure blooded into humans.

That is just as likely as "Well elven genes are recessive."

[jsog]

JamesX wrote...

Actually there is major difference between humans and elves (as noted by their starting out stat differences). Elves are also smaller and skinner than humans (on average).
But all this talk of genetics are just odd. For all we know Elves might just be protohuman and the ambient amount of Lyrium in the upper atmosphere will change all elves who aren't completely pure blooded into humans.
That is just as likely as "Well elven genes are recessive."

We do not have enough information to draw any conclusions.  All we know is that half-breeds are humans, s'all.  I think some of us just were trying to show it could be possible for a situation in which pointed ears would not be exhibited in a cross in all offspring.  As you said, there's more than just ears that differentiate humans from elves... This could also be why we see few halfbreeds.  Perhaps the races are not quite as compatible as we all seem to think, maybe succesful pregnancies are exceedingly rare.  Who knows...

Either way, I do think Alastair is the child from The Calling based on what I have heard from people who have read it.  Soon, I'll be able to read the books and weigh in on this more! =)

[The Angry One]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

Which contradictions are you referring to?

Alistair's sister.
The fact that Fiona is not mentioned once in the game.
The fact that these "human" half-elves are never mentioned when they should be commonplace by now.

Why? All it takes is for human genetics, in particular the rounded ear since that's the only seeming way to tell an elf from a human in this game, to be dominant over elven ones. The very fact that the two "races" are already interfertile means they're incredibly close to begin with, in much the same way Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon was. 

Basically, make the pointy ears recessive and you've got nearly every offspring of a human and an elf being functionally human, unless the human parent also happened to have the recessive knife-ear gene lurking somewhere in his/her genetic code. And even then there's only a, what, one in four chance of the offspring not having the dominant round-ear gene? 

Neanderthals were wiped out, remember? Modern theories in fact suppose that Neanderthals were wiped out through interbreeding, and yet the city elves who don't pass on any of their traits when interbreeding are still around despite being under the thumb of human dominion, where they continually couple with humans whether they like it or not.

My point in all this is that there should be hints in-game of Alistair's "true mother".
Pointing to an external book and expecting us to fill in the gaps is just plain lazy. Again, I will not do Gaider's work for him. If he can't convince me *in game* of these things then they didn't happen as far as I'm concerned.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The Angry One wrote...

Alistair's sister.

This game is very good about characters not knowing the whole picture. It's one of the more interesting properties of the writing. Just because Alistair was told she's his sister does not make it true.

The fact that Fiona is not mentioned once in the game.

There's several things that aren't mentioned ingame, yet are true. For instance: There's not a single obvious toilet or outhouse that I've seen in Redcliffe, yet we know they must have these things.

The fact that these "human" half-elves are never mentioned when they should be commonplace by now.

They'd be functionally indistinguishable from humans. Take away a city elf's pointy ears and what do you have? A human. Maybe one who's a bit less muscular than another human, but not enough that you'd be able to tell at a glance. At most someone might be able to say, "Well, maybe that one's got some elfin blood in him!" 

Neanderthals were wiped out, remember? Modern theories in fact suppose that Neanderthals were wiped out through interbreeding, and yet the city elves who don't pass on any of their traits when interbreeding are still around despite being under the thumb of human dominion, where they continually couple with humans whether they like it or not.

Assuming the elves also breed with each other, as one would expect a bunch of elves walled up in an alienage, it's easy to see how they wouldn't get bred to extinction. After all, they're being seperated from humans. You'd get some halfbreed births who would probably be abandoned or destroyed soon after birth out of shame, but for the most part, elves would still breed with elves. 

My point in all this is that there should be hints in-game of Alistair's "true mother".
Pointing to an external book and expecting us to fill in the gaps is just plain lazy. Again, I will not do Gaider's work for him. If he can't convince me *in game* of these things then they didn't happen as far as I'm concerned.

That's a rather limiting point of view. Will you ignore any hypothetical revelations from Return to Ostragar if you don't buy it? That's an external DLC that not everyone will buy, after all. 

Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 23 novembre 2009 - 10:15 .

[jeckaldied]

I am positive Alistair is not Fiona's child. Besides for Eamon and his sister, we have Loghain who says he was hidden to keep Rowan from knowing, Loghain has NO REASON AT ALL to respect Fiona's wish that Alistair not know his parentage.



Maric likes to remove his pants a lot, I think it's very much in character that he and a serving girl could have slept together, but I don't believe he forced himself on her.

[RangerHero]

jynthor wrote...

Wall of text.....can't....read....

[SLPr0]

jeckaldied wrote...

I am positive Alistair is not Fiona's child. Besides for Eamon and his sister, we have Loghain who says he was hidden to keep Rowan from knowing, Loghain has NO REASON AT ALL to respect Fiona's wish that Alistair not know his parentage.

Maric likes to remove his pants a lot, I think it's very much in character that he and a serving girl could have slept together, but I don't believe he forced himself on her.

Tielis wrote...



What the hell? Are you people
conveniently forgetting that Rowan was long dead when Maric hooked up
with Fiona, and that Alistair was born and "hidden away" before Rowan
died?



Alistair would be about 15 or 16 if he was Fiona's son.

I'd like to see where this was elaborated on, it was not elaborated on in The Calling nor in the Stolen Throne.

And as stated there is no documented evidence within either book of Maric having any dalliances outside Katriel, Rowan and Fiona.

So I find this to be hard to reconcile in the face of what is presented. And I'd love to know where Loghain says anything about a child born to Maric and a serving girl while Rowan was alive. I'd love to see a situation where Loghain would accept that and not stove in Maric's head with a rock actually.

Modifié par SLPr0, 24 novembre 2009 - 12:51 .

[Wissenschaft]

The books don't cover everything that happened in Maric's life. We have no idea just how many kids Maric had. For all we know, there could be more out there.

[SLPr0]

Wissenschaft wrote...

The books don't cover everything that happened in Maric's life. We have no idea just how many kids Maric had. For all we know, there could be more out there.

The issue being if there were more, I believe more people would be aware. Eamon and Teagan are well aware of Alistair.

Duncan and Alistair's relationship is quite suspiscious say, compared, to your own, you meet Duncan at the beginning of your origin, Alistair has known him off and on all his life from when he'd visit Redcliffe or the Chantry.

Why was Duncan visiting the places Alistair was so frequently?

Also the speculation that the Joining for Alistair was merely a formality as he was already tainted is an interesting  theory to put forward as well, if he had been basically born a Grey Warden, then subjecting him to the taint would be of no consquence and no risk.

Of course theres not a lot of talk of strange dreams in Alistair's past, he does speak of his dreams as a Warden, but nothing of his dreams prior to becoming a Warden.

[The Angry One]

I don't see what's suspicious about Duncan seeing Alistair here and there, Duncan went to many places in his travels seeking new recruits, including the City Elf's mother.

Redcliff and Chantry holdings would be logical places to go.



And Alistair says that all his dreams, hearing the darkspawn and side-effects happened after the Joining, there's no evidence that he was tainted before that.