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[1136342t54_]

MisterJB wrote...
The batarians had been hostile to other Council races for decades before humans appeared and, for some reason, the turiand were unwilling or unable to deal with them.
Thus, the Council used humans as attack dogs to drive the batarians out.

Interesting theory (Turians are always willing to deal with direct threats) which is likely only part of the reason why. Point is they allowed the Alliance do what they wanted in that region of space. Again nothing bad for the Alliance

 
Humans were not given anything. All you mention, we bought it with human sweat, blood and tears.

We were still given the Embassy due to the Council seeing a rather strong species and wanting a strong power to colonize the Skyllian Verge. We simply had the potential they wanted.

So again this doesn't even prove a reason for why we need Cerberus.

You need to re-read "Revelation". The Council wanted to punish humans in the most harsh way possible, complete alien oversight.
The only reason we were able to maintain our sovereignty was because we threatened with war. The Council backed off because a war with humans would be against their interests.

They backed off due to a bluff by the ambassador (who was rather close to caving I might add lol). The bluff worked and again we had only minor punishment for what happened. Still not a reason for needing Cerberus.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that you failed to mention the First Contact War, where the turians attempted to enslave humanity.

You said after the First contact war.

Or perhaps we should talk about how none of the other species were willing to offer help when humans were attacked by the geth or kidnapped by the Collectors

The Council didn't even know what the hell was happening nor did the Alliance. Both groups sent out spec ops operatives to gather info. Only Cerberus knew about it and did nothing to inform the other groups about the threat (likely to get the tech for themselves).

You need only to look at my avatar to realize what I believe will happen to humanity should we allow the Alliance to continues representing us

Which that makes no sense but then again that is your opinion and you can continue to believe it no matter how retarded I think it is.

[Drone223]

Liara is a squadmate that early!!!, I thought you had to get her from the Shadow broker base, also what I think is happening to the VS is very unfair, its just another slap to the face for VS fans as if they are being punished for having them as thier LI

Modifié par Drone223, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:38 .

[1136342t54_]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually the Turians didn't attempt to enslave humanity. They attempted to destroy humanity completely. Given that, a human chip on their shoulder when it comes to the Turians is understable. Even the other council races were aghast at the Turians when they learned of Shanxi.

-Polaris

When was that even stated.

[didymos1120]

IanPolaris wrote...

Except the Turians.

We don't have an actual date on this.

[The Elder King]

IanPolaris wrote...



Except the Turians who were given full council membership almost immediately.  The reason is the same in both cases.  Both the Turians (then) and Humanity (now) gives the council much needed military and industrial muscle and those that have the most toys get to make the rules.  The council understands this which is why (even before Shepard) it was considered only a matter of time (century or two at the most) before Humanity was going to get a seat on the council.  Too dangerous not to.


-Polaris

I'm not sure if it's true, Ian, but in the wiki it's stated that the Krogan Rebellions ended in 800 CE. The Turian gained a Council seat in the 900 CE.
Here's the link

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Timeline

Modifié par hhh89, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:41 .

[IanPolaris]

didymos1120 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Except the Turians.

We don't have an actual date on this.

We are told (by Avina no less) that the Turians were immediately invited into the council after First Contact.  Of course that was because the Council was desperate (Krogan Rebellions) but it doesn't change the overall point.  Power flows from the barrel of a gun and that is been proven true for both the Turians and Humanity.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

hhh89 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...



Except the Turians who were given full council membership almost immediately.  The reason is the same in both cases.  Both the Turians (then) and Humanity (now) gives the council much needed military and industrial muscle and those that have the most toys get to make the rules.  The council understands this which is why (even before Shepard) it was considered only a matter of time (century or two at the most) before Humanity was going to get a seat on the council.  Too dangerous not to.


-Polaris

I'm not sure, Ian, but in the wiki it's stated that the Krogan Rebellions ended in 800 CE. The Turian gained a Council seat in the 900 CE.

Yes, but the Turians weren't a Citedal race until then.  At no time were the Turians ever an associate member race.  When they joined they were given full membership to the council.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

When the Krogan Rebellions were put down, the Turians were Independant of the council (Turian Hegonemy IIRC). The joined as full members.

-Polaris

[1136342t54_]

IanPolaris wrote...
Um, listening to Balak much?  The fact is BOTH humans and Baatarians were allowed to colonize the Skyllian Verge along with any other Citedal Race.  It was an open colonization area.  The Bataarians complained because they couldn't compete on an open playing field, and the council (rightly) told the Bataarians to suck it up.  It was the Bataarians who started hostilities (by proxy but they did), not the Alliance.

You think I agree with the Batarians? Honestly that whole point in history was essentially survival of the fittest. The Batarian were colonizing the area first but they likely didn't have the resources to do it quick enough. The council allowed humans to take the territory that the batarians wanted before Humanity even got on the Galactic map. Batarians sees humanity as taking worlds they think is theirs and start attempting to sabotage them using criminals.

A dick move but then again what the Council did was kind of a dick move. Humanity ended up winning and the Batarians left the Citadel pissed off that they loss. Again the Batarians were ****s but the Council were kind of dicks to. In the end it isn't a reason for Cerberus.

Except the Turians who were given full council membership almost immediately.  The reason is the same in both cases.  Both the Turians (then) and Humanity (now) gives the council much needed military and industrial muscle and those that have the most toys get to make the rules.  The council understands this which is why (even before Shepard) it was considered only a matter of time (century or two at the most) before Humanity was going to get a seat on the council.  Too dangerous not to.

The Turians got their council seat after fighting the Krogan. Likely for years. I doubt they literally took them down after immediately being discovered.

So are most of the other powerful races.  We simply hear about the Human experiments more.  Also the other races aren't willing to push bounderies nearly as much as humanity (which is one reason other races fear humanity).

AI research is only allowed by top corporations or certain governments only with heavy oversight from the council. Humanity was doing it in secret.

That's true for pretty much every citidel race with associate membership.  Most spectres come from council races, but non-council races have had spectres and spectre candidates almost from the begining (Blasto anyone?).  In fact the fact that Humanity didn't have even one spectre was starting to draw invidious (and dangerous) commentary even from non-humans given the power and influence the Alliance had even as an associate member race.  When Udina/Renegade Shep says that a human spectre was long overdue, they are doing nothing more than telling it like it is.

You are using a fictional movie character as an example? Unless there is something in the script that says Blasto was real I doubt that is a good argument.

Except the Turians.

-Polaris

Again false. Unless the Turians became a council race when they were discovered. Hell humanity had an embassy faster than any other race.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...

Are you sure that the batarians were hostile? I don't remember, thoug the Hegemony isn't exactly a good government.

Very sure, yes. They practiced slavery, annexed an asari colony and bombarded a salarian one.

Granted, I didn't like at all how they acted after Shepard's dead, but I think that the Alliance is still needed. Humanity need a strong organization with a large fleet and a strong army. Even if Cerberus (prior ME3) was needed (to do what the Alliance couldn't), they couldn't fill the black hole that the absence of the Alliance will leave.

I agree that humanity need a large fleet and a strong army. However, the Alliance is a blunt instrument, capable only of attacking and they have already compromised their ability to do even this by allowying the aliens to dictate how many dreadnoughts humans can build.
Thankfully, someone was smart enough to find a way around this. Just build many more smaller ships.

[The Elder King]

IanPolaris wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...



Except the Turians who were given full council membership almost immediately.  The reason is the same in both cases.  Both the Turians (then) and Humanity (now) gives the council much needed military and industrial muscle and those that have the most toys get to make the rules.  The council understands this which is why (even before Shepard) it was considered only a matter of time (century or two at the most) before Humanity was going to get a seat on the council.  Too dangerous not to.


-Polaris

I'm not sure, Ian, but in the wiki it's stated that the Krogan Rebellions ended in 800 CE. The Turian gained a Council seat in the 900 CE.

Yes, but the Turians weren't a Citedal race until then.  At no time were the Turians ever an associate member race.  When they joined they were given full membership to the council.

-Polaris

We don't know if from 800 to 900 they joined the Citadel. That part of the history it's bit obscure, since the Turian were already a spacefaring race when the Asari discovered the Citadel, according to the wiki. I don't think that the Turian were unknown at the start of the KR.
Either way, they could've gained full membership when they joined, but it still passed one century before that. Humanity granted a seat right after the end of the battle.

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

Good point. If indoctrination works for Cerberus the way it works for the Reapers, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense - but if you can change the subject of the indoctrination, the storyline doesn't seem nearly as weird.

All we really have to go on here is Shiala's experience. She was first indoctrinated first by the Reapers, but then she inhaled the Thorian's spores and became one of its thralls. Maybe indoctrinations can override one another under certain circumstances?

Wouldn't it be just perfect if it had been Cerberus who orchestrated the invasive medical procedures that Baria was doing on the Zhu's Hope colonists, to improve understanding of alternative indoctrination techniques?

Given some of the other things Cerberus is retoractively guilty of in ME3, I think that might be a stretch too far. Plus, I'd expect a Cerberus front company, not an Illium Asari-represented group. Unless Cerberus chose to use a xenophobe Asari as an unwitting screen... which would be brilliant indeed. No one would expect an alien xenophobe being antagnoistic towards Humans to be an unwitting proxy for a Human-centric group.

Of course, I sometimes quibble about how we can be sure that Shiala isn't still indoctrinated. She could be lying to save her skin for her space-Cthulu masters.


I think the real parts to look at are the Saren experience, as mentioned (where the Indoctrinated were led to follow Saren, but not worship Sovereign directly), and the Retribution experiments in which Grayson was gradually indoctrinated via cybernetics.

In the case of Saren's followers, Indoctrination focused on a proxy: belie in Saren himself, rather than Saren's ship. Both Benezia and Shiala blamed the ship, but weren't worshipping it. This shows us that at least 'field indoctrination', distinct from implants, can be be done on targets triggering obedience to someone other than a Reaper.


The Grayson experiments were more intersting in that they're more relevant (cybernetic implants), but also give an insight as to indoctrination's allure. Grayson was at various times led around by reasons entirely devoid of Reaper philosophy: the Indoctrination appealed to his love for Kahlee Sanders, organic morality against suicide, and other distinctly non-Reaper fanatic basis to lead him around. Of course, the Reapers were having direct control as well, and so maybe they didn't bother with ideology like, say, the Arrival scientists were conditioned with.


Cybernetic indoctrination is awkward, because we only have three examples of it: Grayson, Saren, and the Collector General. The Collector General and Grayson were direct controlled: no ideology, no independence. Saren retained autonomy, and had a Reaper ideology: was that ideology from field indoctrination directly from Sovereign, or from the implants?

Specifically: can implants even give ideological indoctrination? And if they can, can they do so in a way other than Reaper ideology?



If so, Cerberus will be set up to continue being a force past ME3, no matter what happens to The Illusive Man or the organization as a whole. All it would take is a few Cerberus-ideology indoctrinees to 'recruit' new blood, and restart the organization entirely independent of the Reapers or the Illusive Man.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Are you sure that the batarians were hostile? I don't remember, thoug the Hegemony isn't exactly a good government.

Very sure, yes. They practiced slavery, annexed an asari colony and bombarded a salarian one.

Granted, I didn't like at all how they acted after Shepard's dead, but I think that the Alliance is still needed. Humanity need a strong organization with a large fleet and a strong army. Even if Cerberus (prior ME3) was needed (to do what the Alliance couldn't), they couldn't fill the black hole that the absence of the Alliance will leave.

I agree that humanity need a large fleet and a strong army. However, the Alliance is a blunt instrument, capable only of attacking and they have already compromised their ability to do even this by allowying the aliens to dictate how many dreadnoughts humans can build.
Thankfully, someone was smart enough to find a way around this. Just build many more smaller ships.

Still someone of the Alliance (or so I remember, not sure about that).
I agree that the Treaty isn't fair, and that ridicously advantages the Turians. Still, humanity has now the possibility to increase their dreadnoughts numbers.

[1136342t54_]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If so, Cerberus will be set up to continue being a force past ME3, no matter what happens to The Illusive Man or the organization as a whole. All it would take is a few Cerberus-ideology indoctrinees to 'recruit' new blood, and restart the organization entirely independent of the Reapers or the Illusive Man.

This would be best for the organization in the end. It would take a while for them to be as big as they were though.

[MisterJB]

hhh89 wrote...
I agree that the Treaty isn't fair, and that ridicously advantages the Turians. Still, humanity has now the possibility to increase their dreadnoughts numbers.

We shouldn't need to look for opportunities. Who gave the asari, the turians and the salarians the right to rule over us?
Their fleets. But that's a game two can play.

[1136342t54_]

Dammit I'm a bit miffed that my post was taken 100% seriously. Crap there is a reason I put a joking smiley there people.

[Dean_the_Young]

1136342t54 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If so, Cerberus will be set up to continue being a force past ME3, no matter what happens to The Illusive Man or the organization as a whole. All it would take is a few Cerberus-ideology indoctrinees to 'recruit' new blood, and restart the organization entirely independent of the Reapers or the Illusive Man.

This would be best for the organization in the end. It would take a while for them to be as big as they were though.

Maybe, maybe not. Cerberus builds an army almost overnight thanks to cybernetics: in the chaos of the post-war rebuilding, a lot of people are going to fall through the cracks.

If you kept silent, didn't draw attention, and left people to think Cerberus was dead, you could easily reconstitute in a matter of years. Indoctrination is always its most successful when no one expects it.


A post-Illusive Man, Cerberus of indoctrinated and cyberneticly-augmented agents committed to a Cerberus-ideology would be pretty fertile ground for later story usage.

[Dean_the_Young]

1136342t54 wrote...

Dammit I'm a bit miffed that my post was taken 100% seriously. Crap there is a reason I put a joking smiley there people.

You tried too hard for too long. Sorry, bud.

[IanPolaris]

The claim was that humanity got an embassy faster than anyone else. That's true but only on a technicality that the Turians, Assari, and Salanians were never associate members. While it's true that the Turians might have been discovered for (a bit more) than a century before become a council race, at no time (at least per the histories I've read) were the Turians ever a Citidel race (they were allied with the council which is not at all the same thing) during the Krogan Rebellians.

The Turians seem to have been given a council seat on admittance which puts a lie to the idea that the Humans were the fastest. In any event, the Council pretty much had to do thus post KR because the Turians probably could have conquered citidel space otherwise by military might.

Humanity is on the fast track for much the same reason and it's why the council is treating humanity with kid gloves on some issues (like AI).

-Polaris

[Hedera]

Drone223 wrote...

Liara is a squadmate that early!!!, I thought you had to get her from the Shadow broker base, also what I think is happening to the VS is very unfair, its just another slap to the face for VS fans as if they are being punished for having them as thier LI

It's probably just to give us an excuse to get to know Vega.  Besides, it could lead to some great emotional conversations.

[nelly21]

MisterJB wrote...

We shouldn't need to look for opportunities. Who gave the asari, the turians and the salarians the right to rule over us?
Their fleets. But that's a game two can play.

This pretty much. As much as I disagree with the Cerberus is the bestest best ever crowd, people tend to be stuck in the good guy vs. bad guy mentality. This specific conflict was written to be shades of grey. The asari and salarians unilaterally decided that they were in charge of the galaxy on the basis of one (albeit enormous) discovery. Then they recruit the turians to be the bite to their bark. Why shouldn't humanity (and frankly all the races) work to advance themselves?

Why does the Council need the Spectres? Aren't they already the dominant force in the galaxy?

[Drone223]

cgrimm54 wrote...

Drone223 wrote...

Liara is a squadmate that early!!!, I thought you had to get her from the Shadow broker base, also what I think is happening to the VS is very unfair, its just another slap to the face for VS fans as if they are being punished for having them as thier LI

It's probably just to give us an excuse to get to know Vega.  Besides, it could lead to some great emotional conversations.

Well you can know Vega without having to put out the VS for half the game as well 

[1136342t54_]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If so, Cerberus will be set up to continue being a force past ME3, no matter what happens to The Illusive Man or the organization as a whole. All it would take is a few Cerberus-ideology indoctrinees to 'recruit' new blood, and restart the organization entirely independent of the Reapers or the Illusive Man.

This would be best for the organization in the end. It would take a while for them to be as big as they were though.

Maybe, maybe not. Cerberus builds an army almost overnight thanks to cybernetics: in the chaos of the post-war rebuilding, a lot of people are going to fall through the cracks.

If you kept silent, didn't draw attention, and left people to think Cerberus was dead, you could easily reconstitute in a matter of years. Indoctrination is always its most successful when no one expects it.


A post-Illusive Man, Cerberus of indoctrinated and cyberneticly-augmented agents committed to a Cerberus-ideology would be pretty fertile ground for later story usage.

Depends on who is left in the organization. I'd suspect a great deal of Cerberus leadership would have to be killed off since some of them may have experienced some indoctrination. Then that person would have to be willing to use that technology.

Plus I doubt Cerberus would be going by the same name. Probably act in a similar way to the Templars in Assassins Creed series. Try and influence or take over organizations. They would likely start infiltrating and effectively taking over maybe companies or something else.

[JeffZero]

Thank you didy. Great thing to read between classes. Thrilling stuff and you wrote it nicely.