703 réponses à ce sujet

[1136342t54_]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Dammit I'm a bit miffed that my post was taken 100% seriously. Crap there is a reason I put a joking smiley there people.

You tried too hard for too long. Sorry, bud.

Probably right oh well.

[1136342t54_]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Turians seem to have been given a council seat on admittance which puts a lie to the idea that the Humans were the fastest. In any event, the Council pretty much had to do thus post KR because the Turians probably could have conquered citidel space otherwise by military might.

-Polaris

The majority of the Krogan were subdued in 800 CE. In 900 CE the Turians were given full Citadel Council membership status.

[IanPolaris]

1136342t54 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Turians seem to have been given a council seat on admittance which puts a lie to the idea that the Humans were the fastest. In any event, the Council pretty much had to do thus post KR because the Turians probably could have conquered citidel space otherwise by military might.

-Polaris

The majority of the Krogan were subdued in 800 CE. In 900 CE the Turians were given full Citadel Council membership status.

They were also admitted as a citadel race in 900CE as well so this proves nothing.  Until then they were NOT a Citadel Race, merely an Ally.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  At no time were Turians ever mere "associate members".

Modifié par IanPolaris, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:13 .

[didymos1120]

IanPolaris wrote...

We are told (by Avina no less) that the Turians were immediately invited into the council after First Contact.  -Polaris

Incorrrect: "Roughly 1,304 galactic standard years, turians were invited to join the council in recognition of the role they played during the Krogan Rebellion."

As to your "Never an associate" speculation, well it's just that: speculation.  I have a real hard time believing the turians were as intimately involved in the planning and progress of that war as they were, and never had an embassy on the Citadel (which is what defines an associate species).  That's just ridiculous.

[IanPolaris]

didymos1120 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

We are told (by Avina no less) that the Turians were immediately invited into the council after First Contact.  -Polaris

Incorrrect: "Roughly 1,304 galactic standard years, turians were invited to join the council in recognition of the role they played during the Krogan Rebellion."

As to your "Never an associate" speculation, well it's just that: speculation.  I have a real hard time believing the turians were as intimately involved in the planning and progress of that war as they were, and never had an embassy on the Citadel (which is what defines an associate species).  That's just ridiculous.

I am not incorrect.  The Turians were never associate members.  They were UNAFFILIATED ALLIES which makes my basic point correct.  The Turians were given explicit special treatment which still angers the Volus and others even thousands of years later.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Read up on the Krogan Rebellions. They make it clear that the Turians were allies of the council races and not a member of them.

-Polaris

[Hedera]

Drone223 wrote...
Well you can know Vega without having to put out the VS for half the game as well 

I know.  I'm just trying to come up with a reason they'd do it.  Notice my sig? More VS would be to my great interest.  But BW seems dead-set on sidelining them for a bit.  Maybe to further other storylines?  Force us to jump right to the Citadel for medical treatment?  At this point it's all speculation, anyway.

[MisterJB]

1136342t54 wrote...
Interesting theory (Turians are always willing to deal with direct threats) which is likely only part of the reason why. Point is they allowed the Alliance do what they wanted in that region of space. Again nothing bad for the Alliance

If the council races wanted the batarians gone, the least they could have done would be help us. Other than that, humans are now part of the Galactic Community but when we ask for help, such as when the geth attacked Eden Prime, we are denied on claims that our space, the space that the Council so "generously" allowed us to colonize, is too close to the Terminus.

 
We were still given the Embassy due to the Council seeing a rather strong species and wanting a strong power to colonize the Skyllian Verge. We simply had the potential they wanted.

So again this doesn't even prove a reason for why we need Cerberus.

Having an embassy still means that humans are viewed as second class citizens.

They backed off due to a bluff by the ambassador (who was rather close to caving I might add lol). The bluff worked and again we had only minor punishment for what happened. Still not a reason for needing Cerberus.

It proves the tiranny of the Council. Also, Cerberus would be perfect to make sure the spies the Council will send against humanity can't learn anything important.

You said after the First contact war.

I said after First Contact.
Humans approach a dormant relay, turians notice us. First contact.
Turians attack with deadly force.

The Council didn't even know what the hell was happening nor did the Alliance. Both groups sent out spec ops operatives to gather info.

True but when Captain Kirrahe of the STG asked for permission to actually do something about it, he was denied. Why? Purely human matters.

As for the Alliance. Depending on the ending, they're either too busy consolidating power or they had their ships become part of the Council fleet.
So, in the Paragon ending, the Council appropriates out ships because " a Council species needs to be ready to help others with their problems". But when we are the ones with a problem, it is suddenly a purely human matter and they can't do anything about it.

Only Cerberus knew about it and did nothing to inform the other groups about the threat (likely to get the tech for themselves).

Shepard was part of Cerberus and he tried to warn the Alliance and ask the Council for help. The Council still did nothing.

Which that makes no sense but then again that is your opinion and you can continue to believe it no matter how retarded I think it is.

The Alliance claims to defend the interests of all humans and yet, they allow alien laws to dictate how many weapons we can build to defend ourselves with.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:25 .

[1136342t54_]

IanPolaris wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Turians seem to have been given a council seat on admittance which puts a lie to the idea that the Humans were the fastest. In any event, the Council pretty much had to do thus post KR because the Turians probably could have conquered citidel space otherwise by military might.

-Polaris

The majority of the Krogan were subdued in 800 CE. In 900 CE the Turians were given full Citadel Council membership status.

They were also admitted as a citadel race in 900CE as well so this proves nothing.  Until then they were NOT a Citadel Race, merely an Ally.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  At no time were Turians ever mere "associate members".

Not sure about that since if it was true it wouldn't be such a surprise that humanity got a council seat that quickly. It was likely the Turians were given an embassy sometime after 800 CE but before 900 CE. Then they were given a council seat due to their action the war. Even the codex states that humanity achieved in decades what others waited centuries to achieve. The Turians were likely given an embassy by 800 CE.

[sanmar]

cgrimm54 wrote...

Drone223 wrote...
Well you can know Vega without having to put out the VS for half the game as well 

I know.  I'm just trying to come up with a reason they'd do it.  Notice my sig? More VS would be to my great interest.  But BW seems dead-set on sidelining them for a bit.  Maybe to further other storylines?  Force us to jump right to the Citadel for medical treatment?  At this point it's all speculation, anyway.

I hope the VS will return as soon as possible. There's hope, isn't it?!

[FERMi27]

I don't know who stickied this thread, but I have a good feeling about this. With all the spoilers in the first post and the thread's stickiness, I think we'll get to play the demo soon.

[IanPolaris]

1136342t54 wrote...

Not sure about that since if it was true it wouldn't be such a surprise that humanity got a council seat that quickly. It was likely the Turians were given an embassy sometime after 800 CE but before 900 CE. Then they were given a council seat due to their action the war. Even the codex states that humanity achieved in decades what others waited centuries to achieve. The Turians were likely given an embassy by 800 CE.

Of course it would!  It would mean that humanity would be about on par with the Turians and the Turians (by and large) resent that.  Even then, if you listen to even the Turian diplomats, they admit that fast-tracking humans to the council is necessary and inevitable given Alliance military and industrial strength.

The accounts of the Rebellian CLEARLY state that you had Turian and Council fleets as seperate entitlies, allied but acting independantly, and there is NO record or mention that the Turians even considered tolerating "second class" citizenship.  The people complaining are the Volus and not without reason (but you need to control your own space before being asked to help the galaxy control it's space as a whole...and not be Turian Clients).

-Polaris

[Drone223]

cgrimm54 wrote...

Drone223 wrote...
Well you can know Vega without having to put out the VS for half the game as well 

I know.  I'm just trying to come up with a reason they'd do it.  Notice my sig? More VS would be to my great interest.  But BW seems dead-set on sidelining them for a bit.  Maybe to further other storylines?  Force us to jump right to the Citadel for medical treatment?  At this point it's all speculation, anyway.

True, but sidelining for half a game is a bit too much, two or three mabye even four mission's is enough imo, though I hope your right it will just be speculation

PS yes I know your a VS fan

Modifié par Drone223, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:24 .

[Hedera]

MisterJB wrote...

So, in the Paragon ending, the Council appropriates out ships because " a Council species needs to be ready to help others with their problems". But when we are the ones with a problem, it is suddenly a purely human matter and they can't do anything about it.

It's because, regardless of anything we do, there are prejudices that seem to be inherent in these matters.  For some reason, the Turians have decided they hate humanity.  The rest of the Council is just upset humans have come from nothing to everything so quickly.  They liked their status quo, where they got to order around the 'lesser races' and we showed up and flipped the figurative table on our way in.  Humanity is the wrench in all their political plans, so they make no effort to help us.  Unfortunately, this sort of information is priveleged in the ME universe, so the only people who know this are people like Udina and Anderson, who were there from the beginning.

[Hedera]

Drone223 wrote...

True, but sidelining for half a game is a bit too much, two or three mabye even four mission's is enough imo

PS yes I know your a VS fan

I'd take three or four main missions.  Like the requirement before Horizon in ME2 or before Virmire in ME1.  They better get K/A back on the Normandy quick though.  I agree that they've kinda gotten the shaft for an entire third of the series.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Oh yeah, they have really been so mistreated, having Spectres, one of the largest fleets, a seat on the Council, being able to colonize wherever they want, getting away with illegal research relatively easy and controlling a large portion of C-Sec. All of this in less than half a century.

I should really feel sorry for them. Boo-hoo. 

Indeed. Despite the other species best attempts to either control us or kill us, we have done quite well for ourselves.
As ironic as it is, the Reapers are the only species who have showed humanity the proper respect.

Also, do tell. When did you stop being a human?

[IanPolaris]

cgrimm54 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

So, in the Paragon ending, the Council appropriates out ships because " a Council species needs to be ready to help others with their problems". But when we are the ones with a problem, it is suddenly a purely human matter and they can't do anything about it.

It's because, regardless of anything we do, there are prejudices that seem to be inherent in these matters.  For some reason, the Turians have decided they hate humanity.  The rest of the Council is just upset humans have come from nothing to everything so quickly.  They liked their status quo, where they got to order around the 'lesser races' and we showed up and flipped the figurative table on our way in.  Humanity is the wrench in all their political plans, so they make no effort to help us.  Unfortunately, this sort of information is priveleged in the ME universe, so the only people who know this are people like Udina and Anderson, who were there from the beginning.

It's no shock the Turians hate humanity.  The Turians wanted to wipe humanity out (or at the very least bomb us back into the stone age) for "daring" to break a galactic law humanity knew nothing about (and the Turian occupatiuon of Shanxi was genocidal...there is a REASON the rest of the council forced the Turians to pay reparations!)  Basically humanity as the new kids on the block, faced the Turians, ship for ship and soldier for soldier and won (or at least didn't lose which for the Turians amounts to the same thing). It's a huge (and perhaps fatal) blow to Turian prestigue if only becaues it tells others that the Turians aren't the invincible military powerhouse that everyone thought....

-Polaris

[1136342t54_]

MisterJB wrote...
If the council races wanted the batarians gone, the least they could have done would be help us. Other than that, humans are now part of the Galactic Community but when we ask for help, such as when the geth attacked Eden Prime, we are denied on claims that our space, the space that the Council so "generously" allowed us to colonize, is too close to the Terminus.

Nice backpedaling. You first say the Council used humanity as attack dogs to drive the batarians out since they wanted to get rid of them. Now you say they don't want them gone?

Its the Council's fault for allowing us to decide to colonize space near systems that are filled with pirates, warlords, merc gangs and rogue nation states? It was actually rather intelligent for the Council. Letting the Alliance colonize that space is a way to test how good we would do in a military situation.

 
Having an embassy still means that humans are viewed as second class citizens.

How so? In ME1 that was said by Shepard once but most of the time we see other aliens who are pissed off that humans are treated as favorites.

It proves the tiranny of the Council. Also, Cerberus would be perfect to make sure the spies the Council will send against humanity can't learn anything important.

Funnily enough Cerberus could have done things like that but TIM in all his infinite wisdom decides its better to spend money on assassinations, superweapon projects and some intelligenct gathering. 

I said after First Contact.
Humans approach a dormant relay, turians notice us. First contact.
Turians attack with deadly force.

A reason for a strong military not necessarily Cerberus. At least not Cerberus as it is now.

True but when Captain Kirrahe of the STG asked for permission to actually do something about it, he was denied. Why? Purely human matters.

Then again I hear in news reports (paragon playthrough) that STG were sent to the Terminus to investigate. Even the Alliance had to send agents to deal with things. Note this is after the Citadel fleet was destroyed. Council has to focused on rebuilding their own forces. Alliance didn't even want to focus too much on it but they did take some precautions.

As for the Alliance. Depending on the ending, they're either too busy consolidating power or they had their ships become part of the Council fleet.
So, in the Paragon ending, the Council appropriates out ships because " a Council species needs to be ready to help others with their problems". But when we are the ones with a problem, it is suddenly a purely human matter and they can't do anything about it.

What will the Council do? Send a fleet to the Terminus when the Alliance will only send defensive weapons to Colonies?

Shepard was part of Cerberus and he tried to warn the Alliance and ask the Council for help. The Council still did nothing.

I wonder why that happened. Oh wait because Shepard is working with a known Terrorist group. Its unlikely many will trust him.

The Alliance claims to defend the interests of all humans and yet, they allow alien laws to dictate how many weapons we can build to defend ourselves with.

Okay then. Go off into the Terminus Systems then.

[Blacklash93]

I love this kind of logic.

"They hate us and want to control us so it's okay if we try to do the same to them. You're stupid and clearly don't care about humanity if you say otherwise."

Modifié par Blacklash93, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:31 .

[IanPolaris]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I love this kind of logic.

"They hate us and want to control us so it's okay if we try to do the same to them. You're stupid and clearly don't care about humanity if you say otherwise."

It's called "Politics" and is completely normal.

-Polaris

[1136342t54_]

IanPolaris wrote...


Of course it would!  It would mean that humanity would be about on par with the Turians and the Turians (by and large) resent that.  Even then, if you listen to even the Turian diplomats, they admit that fast-tracking humans to the council is necessary and inevitable given Alliance military and industrial strength.

What Turian diplomats are you talking about?

The accounts of the Rebellian CLEARLY state that you had Turian and Council fleets as seperate entitlies, allied but acting independantly, and there is NO record or mention that the Turians even considered tolerating "second class" citizenship.  The people complaining are the Volus and not without reason (but you need to control your own space before being asked to help the galaxy control it's space as a whole...and not be Turian Clients).

-Polaris

No it doesn't. The accounts of the rebellion is vague about the Turian status. All we can do is make an educated guess on what most likely happened. What is most likely is that the turians had a embassy before they made it on the council.

[Hedera]

IanPolaris wrote...

It's no shock the Turians hate humanity.  The Turians wanted to wipe humanity out (or at the very least bomb us back into the stone age) for "daring" to break a galactic law humanity knew nothing about (and the Turian occupatiuon of Shanxi was genocidal...there is a REASON the rest of the council forced the Turians to pay reparations!)  Basically humanity as the new kids on the block, faced the Turians, ship for ship and soldier for soldier and won (or at least didn't lose which for the Turians amounts to the same thing). It's a huge (and perhaps fatal) blow to Turian prestigue if only becaues it tells others that the Turians aren't the invincible military powerhouse that everyone thought....

-Polaris

I agree completely, but just because we broke some law we had no idea existed doesn't give them the reason to hate us.  That wa what I meant by 'for no reason'.  In retrospect I should have said 'no excusable reason'.  Their being, for lack of a better term, butthurt over another race actually being viable in combat is something I'd like to see brought into ME3's inevitable Palaven arc.  Getting kicked off their own planet must have been a huge blow to Turian morale.  Shepard's help or lack thereof could have the potential to finally prove humanity's importance, as well as get us some much-needed respect from the Turian Hierarchy.

[1136342t54_]

 

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually the Turians didn't attempt to enslave humanity. They attempted to destroy humanity completely. Given that, a human chip on their shoulder when it comes to the Turians is understable. Even the other council races were aghast at the Turians when they learned of Shanxi.

-Polaris

Again When was that even stated? Turian military doctrine says differently. They were likely to make humanity a client state.

[Someone With Mass]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I love this kind of logic.

"They hate us and want to control us so it's okay if we try to do the same to them. You're stupid and clearly don't care about humanity if you say otherwise."

I believe a better word is "hypocrisy"

[didymos1120]

IanPolaris wrote...

Read up on the Krogan Rebellions. They make it clear that the Turians were allies of the council races and not a member of them.

-Polaris

No, they (by which you mean the Codex entries I presume), do nothing of the sort.  Feel free to provide the "money quote" though.