Blacklash93 wrote...
I love this kind of logic.
"They hate us and want to control us so it's okay if we try to do the same to them. You're stupid and clearly don't care about humanity if you say otherwise."
And then they try to justify it with this.IanPolaris wrote...
Blacklash93 wrote...
I love this kind of logic.
"They hate us and want to control us so it's okay if we try to do the same to them. You're stupid and clearly don't care about humanity if you say otherwise."
It's called "Politics" and is completely normal.
-Polaris
1136342t54 wrote...
What Turian diplomats are you talking about?IanPolaris wrote...
Of course it would! It would mean that humanity would be about on par with the Turians and the Turians (by and large) resent that. Even then, if you listen to even the Turian diplomats, they admit that fast-tracking humans to the council is necessary and inevitable given Alliance military and industrial strength.
No it doesn't. The accounts of the rebellion is vague about the Turian status. All we can do is make an educated guess on what most likely happened. What is most likely is that the turians had a embassy before they made it on the council.The accounts of the Rebellian CLEARLY state that you had Turian and Council fleets as seperate entitlies, allied but acting independantly, and there is NO record or mention that the Turians even considered tolerating "second class" citizenship. The people complaining are the Volus and not without reason (but you need to control your own space before being asked to help the galaxy control it's space as a whole...and not be Turian Clients).
-Polaris
Blacklash93 wrote...
And then they try to justify it with this.IanPolaris wrote...
Blacklash93 wrote...
I love this kind of logic.
"They hate us and want to control us so it's okay if we try to do the same to them. You're stupid and clearly don't care about humanity if you say otherwise."
It's called "Politics" and is completely normal.
-Polaris
Love it.
1136342t54 wrote...
They were likely to make humanity a client state.
MisterJB wrote...
Indeed. Despite the other species best attempts to either control us or kill us, we have done quite well for ourselves.
As ironic as it is, the Reapers are the only species who have showed humanity the proper respect.
Also, do tell. When did you stop being a human?
1136342t54 wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Actually the Turians didn't attempt to enslave humanity. They attempted to destroy humanity completely. Given that, a human chip on their shoulder when it comes to the Turians is understable. Even the other council races were aghast at the Turians when they learned of Shanxi.
-Polaris
Again When was that even stated? Turian military doctrine says differently. They were likely to make humanity a client state.
Modifié par IanPolaris, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:46 .
MisterJB wrote...
That's politics for you but, personally, I am not interested in controlling other races.
twisty77 wrote...
Can I PLEASE get some gameplay info WITHOUT people mentioning the leaked script? Holy balls its annoying to hear about the leaked script.
I remember one Turian diplomat speaking with a Salarian one. They were speaking about the Hanar, Volus and Elcor chances of getting a Council seat possibly before humans. That is it.IanPolaris wrote...
If you wander the council chambers in ME1 (and elsewhere) you can pick up a suprising amount of information by just listening the ambient dialog between ambassadors.
The accounts CLEARLY state that the Turian Hegonomy allied itself with the Citadel Council and together they drove back the Krogan. It's very clear that the Turians are ALLIES and not a citadel council race at this time. At no time were they ever an associate member.
-Polaris
Again I want to see proof other than simple wild speculation to fit your point. If the Turians truly wanted to wipe out the human population on Shanxi they would have easily taken out the major population centers and spaceports with orbital bombardment simple. Also using a Turian mercenary as a source for the top brass of the Turian Hierarchy motivations in a war doesn't work at all. Especially when he likely said that just to ****** people off.IanPolaris wrote...
Turian military doctrine assumes Turian military superiority. When the Turians were kicked off of Shanxi (and that occupation was brutal...even genocidally brutal), the Turians were getting ready to blow humanity off the face of the galaxy. Turian Mercs (see Kaidan's back story) even bragged about it. The rest of the council told the Turians to back off and the Turians have hated and resented humanity since (esp when told they had to PAY reperations to an inferior upstart race like humanity).
-Polaris
The Genophage was never meant to kill the Krogan species. If they actually tried the Krogan could actually repopulate but it would be slower. The Turians used it knowing it wouldn't kill their species but it would be devastating enough that it would give the Citadel forces a great advantage.Edit PS: Don't forget the Genophage either. The Salarians may have designed it but it was supposed to be a bargining chip used to force a peace. The Turians didn't hesitate to use what amounted to genocidal biowarefar on the Krogans when faced witha military threat that remotely rivaled their own. No reason why Humanity would have been treated any differently.
1136342t54 wrote...
I remember one Turian diplomat speaking with a Salarian one. They were speaking about the Hanar, Volus and Elcor chances of getting a Council seat possibly before humans. That is it.IanPolaris wrote...
If you wander the council chambers in ME1 (and elsewhere) you can pick up a suprising amount of information by just listening the ambient dialog between ambassadors.
The accounts CLEARLY state that the Turian Hegonomy allied itself with the Citadel Council and together they drove back the Krogan. It's very clear that the Turians are ALLIES and not a citadel council race at this time. At no time were they ever an associate member.
-Polaris
They talk about the Turians separately because they were the ones who were significant and helping to turn the war around. The codex would have to state Turian instead of Council or Citadel in general. The Salarians are part of the council but they needed to state the Salarians created the Genophage not the Council or Citadel as a whole.
It is likely that the Turians had an embassy after 800 CE since they needed diplomatic and military coordination with the other races.
Yes its an Alliance of course but then again Shepard calls the Council races allies.
Modifié par IanPolaris, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:53 .
You're justifying it without realizing it. Saying it's "just the way things are" is basically an ill-informed argument for refusing to change it. Because it can change.IanPolaris wrote...
Who said anything about justifying? I am a cold-eyed realist and this IS how things work in the real universe.
-Polaris
Modifié par Blacklash93, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:54 .
Blacklash93 wrote...
You're justifying it without realizing it. Saying it's "just the way things are" is basically an ill-informed argument for refusing to change it. And it can change.IanPolaris wrote...
Who said anything about justifying? I am a cold-eyed realist and this IS how things work in the real universe.
-Polaris
Guest_Spaedar_*
IanPolaris wrote...
1136342t54 wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Actually the Turians didn't attempt to enslave humanity. They attempted to destroy humanity completely. Given that, a human chip on their shoulder when it comes to the Turians is understable. Even the other council races were aghast at the Turians when they learned of Shanxi.
-Polaris
Again When was that even stated? Turian military doctrine says differently. They were likely to make humanity a client state.
Turian military doctrine assumes Turian military superiority. When the Turians were kicked off of Shanxi (and that occupation was brutal...even genocidally brutal), the Turians were getting ready to blow humanity off the face of the galaxy. Turian Mercs (see Kaidan's back story) even bragged about it. The rest of the council told the Turians to back off and the Turians have hated and resented humanity since (esp when told they had to PAY reperations to an inferior upstart race like humanity).
-Polaris
Edit PS: Don't forget the Genophage either. The Salarians may have designed it but it was supposed to be a bargining chip used to force a peace. The Turians didn't hesitate to use what amounted to genocidal biowarefar on the Krogans when faced witha military threat that remotely rivaled their own. No reason why Humanity would have been treated any differently.
You called it a "theory". Thus, I used the word "if" to accomodate this.1136342t54 wrote...
Nice backpedaling. You first say the Council used humanity as attack dogs to drive the batarians out since they wanted to get rid of them. Now you say they don't want them gone?
Who said the Alliance had a choice? What if that was the only space we could colonize without stepping on (important) toes.
Its the Council's fault for allowing us to decide to colonize space near systems that are filled with pirates, warlords, merc gangs and rogue nation states? It was actually rather intelligent for the Council. Letting the Alliance colonize that space is a way to test how good we would do in a military situation.
Even the VI guide on the Citadel classifies all species without a Council seat as "lesser species". And Shepard can claim to the Executor that humans are treated as second class citizens.
How so? In ME1 that was said by Shepard once but most of the time we see other aliens who are pissed off that humans are treated as favorites.
Who says Cerberus doesn't? Do you honestly think that we Shepard saw of Cerberus is all there is?Funnily enough Cerberus could have done things like that but TIM in all his infinite wisdom decides its better to spend money on assassinations, superweapon projects and some intelligenct gathering.
Cerberus were the ones who suggested the construction of the Normandy which not only made the Alliance the first ever military with stealth technology but also allowed human scientists to see how turians work.IA reason for a strong military not necessarily Cerberus. At least not Cerberus as it is now.
Not much point in investigating if they then do nothing about it.Then again I hear in news reports (paragon playthrough) that STG were sent to the Terminus to investigate. Even the Alliance had to send agents to deal with things. Note this is after the Citadel fleet was destroyed. Council has to focused on rebuilding their own forces. Alliance didn't even want to focus too much on it but they did take some precautions.
That would be a good start. Or better yet, if they don't want to go, allow us to send our fleets into the Terminus. Less hipocrisy would be nice too.What will the Council do? Send a fleet to the Terminus when the Alliance will only send defensive weapons to Colonies?
Thus the Council and the Alliance allow the death of hundreds of thousands of humans just because of a petty grudge.I wonder why that happened. Oh wait because Shepard is working with a known Terrorist group. Its unlikely many will trust him.
I didn't say humanity should not work with other races or trade with them whenever possible. I said that we should not allow their governments to dictate how we should live ours lives.Okay then. Go off into the Terminus Systems then.
Spaedar wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
1136342t54 wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Actually the Turians didn't attempt to enslave humanity. They attempted to destroy humanity completely. Given that, a human chip on their shoulder when it comes to the Turians is understable. Even the other council races were aghast at the Turians when they learned of Shanxi.
-Polaris
Again When was that even stated? Turian military doctrine says differently. They were likely to make humanity a client state.
Turian military doctrine assumes Turian military superiority. When the Turians were kicked off of Shanxi (and that occupation was brutal...even genocidally brutal), the Turians were getting ready to blow humanity off the face of the galaxy. Turian Mercs (see Kaidan's back story) even bragged about it. The rest of the council told the Turians to back off and the Turians have hated and resented humanity since (esp when told they had to PAY reperations to an inferior upstart race like humanity).
-Polaris
Edit PS: Don't forget the Genophage either. The Salarians may have designed it but it was supposed to be a bargining chip used to force a peace. The Turians didn't hesitate to use what amounted to genocidal biowarefar on the Krogans when faced witha military threat that remotely rivaled their own. No reason why Humanity would have been treated any differently.
Nice to see that people are passionate about this universe, I certainly share in that passion, but you ought to really read up on the lore and not put your own spin on it for funsies. You're getting into discussions about this race with very incorrect information, or rather you seem to have made up your own interpretation of them as galactic conquerers and aggressors when they are anything but that. The Krogan Rebellions were an all encompassing threat to the galaxy brought on by the krogans and the damage they did to the turians was very severe, so on that end the turians went all in at the front of the rebellions to put an end to it, backed by the asari and salarians.
You also have a rather askew view of their culture, not to mention the "war" between them and the humans. While I'm not a fan of the Evolution comics, they are canon and the correct source of information far as I understand, and if you read them you'd know the conflict was never about humanity but the plot device on Shanxi and the agenda of the corrupted Desolas.
I would need to see that video. Also how does that indicate that the Turians resent humanity or even indicate that it was necessary?IanPolaris wrote...
Actually no. They are clearly talking about humanity getting a council seat and the Turian admitting that the humans were making a big push. The consensus (so much so it was glossed over in the coversation) was that humanity would get a council seat "very soon" but the real nub was then, "What about the Volus (in particular)?"
So it's not at all "that's it". Not hardly.
They talk about the Council and Turian fleets as SEPERATE entities. Clearly so. They also talk about the Heiarchy Allying itself with the council races and not becoming part of them. That only happens a century after the way. I don't doubt the Turians may have had diplomatcs in the Citidel to coordate but that does NOT make them associate members.
I.e. there are embassies and embasssies as it were.
I think the game lore is reasonably clear that the Turians were an allied but independant race before being given full membership all at once.
-Polaris
The turians tried. But then the asari decided that we could be used as attack dogs.Someone With Mass wrote...
If all the other races would have wanted the humans dead, they would have known and felt it.
IanPolaris wrote...
Um, the Turians are an agressive and imperialistic race. Overtly so. Even Turians will admit this. Of course the Turians interpret it much like the 18th and 19th century British viewed their Imperialism (i.e. a "White man's burden) but that doesn't make them less aggressive or less imperialistic. Also the Turians DO have a tendency to bomb a problem into submission with overwhelming force rather than to solve it. It's almost cliche but it's a cliche for a reason.
-Polaris
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