703 réponses à ce sujet

[XkooleS99]

IanPolaris wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No it doesn't.  I merely means that humanity went from a pre-FTL socity to a galactic power faster than the Turians and that is all.  It says nothing about if the Turians were an associate member before, and there is no evidence that they were.  They seem to have been inducted as full members although they were in contact (as allies) with the Council for a bit more than a century before that.

-Polaris

No the Codex clearly suggests that humanity's fast growth is a main reason for the resentment many races feel about them. 

Would you at the very least attempt to provide evidence that the Turians gained a council seat faster than any other species.

If not then there is no point in discussing this.

That in no way shows that the Turians were ever "associate members" let alone longer than humanity.

-Polaris

"In the midst of the Krogan Rebellions, the Citadel Council made first contact with the turians.The Krogan Rebellions[/b] were a major conflict between the krogan and the Citadel Council that began in 700 CE and continued for decades(the majority of krogan were subdued by 800 CE, although scattered insurgent actions would continue for decades) .By 900 CE, the turians were granted full membership on the Citadel
Council in gratitude for their service during the Krogan Rebellions. The
turian military fills the military and peacekeeping niche left by the
decimated krogan."
"Humanity's first contact with an alien race occurred in 2157.A political-economic pact for collective colonial security, the Alliance
is the central galactic institution of human society. The Alliance
gained associate membership to the Citadel Council in 2165 and full
membership in 2183, with Ambassador David Anderson or Donnel Udina
(depending on the player's choice) representing humanity." 

Hope this helps

[Wulfram]

I'm not sure why Ally vs Associate member really matters anyway.

[Someone With Mass]

cgrimm54 wrote...
Exactly.  
"Oh crap giant sandstorm.  Everyone, breathing masks on!"
Just because Mars is a barren, inhospitible wasteland now doesn't mean it isn't tolerable a hundred and seventy years in the future.  and remember: Mass Effect Fields.

It's probably one of the very first things they did when they achieved easy accessible spaceflight.

[IanPolaris]

XkooleS99 wrote...

 "In the midst of the Krogan Rebellions, the Citadel Council made first contact with the turians.The Krogan Rebellions[/b] were a major conflict between the krogan and the Citadel Council that began in 700 CE and continued for decades(the majority of krogan were subdued by 800 CE, although scattered insurgent actions would continue for decades) .By 900 CE, the turians were granted full membership on the Citadel
Council in gratitude for their service during the Krogan Rebellions. The
turian military fills the military and peacekeeping niche left by the
decimated krogan."
"Humanity's first contact with an alien race occurred in 2157.A political-economic pact for collective colonial security, the Alliance
is the central galactic institution of human society. The Alliance
gained associate membership to the Citadel Council in 2165 and full
membership in 2183, with Ambassador David Anderson or Donnel Udina
(depending on the player's choice) representing humanity." 

Hope this helps

Exactly.  Note what is listed for Humanity's entry but NOT listed for the Turians.  Date of associate membership.  The Citadel was never in danger during the Rebellions and record keeping even to the Rachni wars is very good, so if the Turians were ever associate members, it should be listed as such with date of membership.

Instead it seems very clear:  The Turians were Council Allies for about 200 years and then granted full membership.  They were never associate members (like Humanity was or like the Volus and Elcor are).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Wulfram wrote...
The initial response is a pretty clear example of the people on the ground screwing up.  Happens all the time.

Could you pleas elaborate?

Shanxi was only 5 years old at most at first contact.  It can't have been anything anyone could confuse with a homeworld.

Maybe, maybe not. What we do know for sure is that the turians tought they has defeated the bulk of humanity's strenght. So, one way or the other, they intended to cripple humanity for good.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not sure why Ally vs Associate member really matters anyway.

Basically it gives lie to the often (and often by Turian) complaint that Humanity is being given too much power too quickly.  In fact the Turians never had to wear 'training wheels" like they insist other races do.  It proves the Turian Heiarchy (and Asari and Salarians too to be fair) are hypocrits.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...
Maybe, maybe not. What we do know for sure is that the turians tought they has defeated the bulk of humanity's strenght. So, one way or the other, they intended to cripple humanity for good.

I think a lot of this mistake can go down to Turian arrogance.  The Turians after conquring Shanxi (and getting a bloody nose in the process) said, "Well that was harder than expected.  Good thing we caught their main fleet so we don't have to do that again."

"Yeah, it's not like a primitive species like this could have any more.  Dumb bad luck on our part."

"yeah"

-Polaris

[Someone With Mass]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not sure why Ally vs Associate member really matters anyway.

Basically it gives lie to the often (and often by Turian) complaint that Humanity is being given too much power too quickly.  In fact the Turians never had to wear 'training wheels" like they insist other races do.  It proves the Turian Heiarchy (and Asari and Salarians too to be fair) are hypocrits.

-Polaris

Yeah, it's not like the turians fought a war for centuries before thay got their seat on the Council or anything.

Not to mention that the asari and the salarians established the Council. Of course they're going to have members of their own race on the seats.

[XkooleS99]

MisterJB wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
The initial response is a pretty clear example of the people on the ground screwing up.  Happens all the time.

Could you pleas elaborate?

Shanxi was only 5 years old at most at first contact.  It can't have been anything anyone could confuse with a homeworld.

Maybe, maybe not. What we do know for sure is that the turians tought they has defeated the bulk of humanity's strenght. So, one way or the other, they intended to cripple humanity for good.

"To the turians, it was merely a police action against an ignorant
species violating Council law; to humanity, it was their first encounter
with another intelligent race - and it would shape their views of the galaxy for decades to follow.
"

[IanPolaris]

Someone With Mass wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not sure why Ally vs Associate member really matters anyway.

Basically it gives lie to the often (and often by Turian) complaint that Humanity is being given too much power too quickly.  In fact the Turians never had to wear 'training wheels" like they insist other races do.  It proves the Turian Heiarchy (and Asari and Salarians too to be fair) are hypocrits.

-Polaris

Yeah, it's not like the turians fought a war for centuries before thay got their seat on the Council or anything.

Not to mention that the asari and the salarians established the Council. Of course they're going to have members of their own race on the seats.

It still makes them hypocrits.  The Volus have a legit gripe (I think that it's overstated by their ambassador).  The Turians don't.  They got to join as full members or not at all.  Not an option given to humanity.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

XkooleS99 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
The initial response is a pretty clear example of the people on the ground screwing up.  Happens all the time.

Could you pleas elaborate?

Shanxi was only 5 years old at most at first contact.  It can't have been anything anyone could confuse with a homeworld.

Maybe, maybe not. What we do know for sure is that the turians tought they has defeated the bulk of humanity's strenght. So, one way or the other, they intended to cripple humanity for good.

"To the turians, it was merely a police action against an ignorant
species violating Council law; to humanity, it was their first encounter
with another intelligent race - and it would shape their views of the galaxy for decades to follow.
"

Which is why the Turians perpared and mobilized for TOTAL WAR before the council stepped in. 

Riiight.....

-Polaris

[1136342t54_]

IanPolaris wrote...

Here it is: We have the codex entries for the Turians and Humanity. In the case of Humanity, the date of associate membership AND full membership are clearly deliniated. In the case of the Turians, had the Turians been an associate member, that date would likewise have been noted.

It is not. The Turian codex entry only states when the Turians were inducted into the Cidadel Council AS FULL MEMBERS.

The conclusion is clear: The Turians were never associate members. [It's worth noting that all races that are or were associate members have that date listed in the respective codex entries. So far humanity is the only one to be promoted from associated to full.]

-Polaris

The Elcor nor the Hanar don't. 

[didymos1120]

cgrimm54 wrote...

I'm assuming by 2185 Mars has been at least to some extent terraformed.

Not according the the planet entry. It merely says it was considered a prospect for it before FTL was discovered. The implication is that the idea was dropped.

[MisterJB]

XkooleS99 wrote...

"To the turians, it was merely a police action against an ignorant
species violating Council law; "

So, if a police sees someone driving on the wrong side of the road, the correct action is to shoot that person in the face, then discover where he lives and murder his family.

[IanPolaris]

1136342t54 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Here it is: We have the codex entries for the Turians and Humanity. In the case of Humanity, the date of associate membership AND full membership are clearly deliniated. In the case of the Turians, had the Turians been an associate member, that date would likewise have been noted.

It is not. The Turian codex entry only states when the Turians were inducted into the Cidadel Council AS FULL MEMBERS.

The conclusion is clear: The Turians were never associate members. [It's worth noting that all races that are or were associate members have that date listed in the respective codex entries. So far humanity is the only one to be promoted from associated to full.]

-Polaris

The Elcor nor the Hanar don't. 

They are only associate members and have never been anything but and I DO believe their join dates are listed.  It also doesn't diminish my point at all.

IF the Turians had been associate members later promoted, their codex entry should clearly say so like it does for humanity.  Instead it strongly implies they were inducted as full members after being allies only.

-Polaris

[didymos1120]

More article, less turians.

[XkooleS99]

IanPolaris wrote...

XkooleS99 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
The initial response is a pretty clear example of the people on the ground screwing up.  Happens all the time.

Could you pleas elaborate?

Shanxi was only 5 years old at most at first contact.  It can't have been anything anyone could confuse with a homeworld.

Maybe, maybe not. What we do know for sure is that the turians tought they has defeated the bulk of humanity's strenght. So, one way or the other, they intended to cripple humanity for good.

"To the turians, it was merely a police action against an ignorant
species violating Council law; to humanity, it was their first encounter
with another intelligent race - and it would shape their views of the galaxy for decades to follow.
"

Which is why the Turians perpared and mobilized for TOTAL WAR before the council stepped in. 

Riiight.....

-Polaris

"After an expedition sent through the Shanxi-Theta mass relay was wiped out by a turian
patrol fleet, a single ship survived and made it back to Shanxi itself.
A retaliatory force was sent out by the commander at the colony, and
the reinforcements destroyed the turian forces. Events escalated
quickly; the turians sent more ships through the relay and captured
Shanxi, but not before a message drone was sent out by the defenders, alerting the Alliance forces at Arcturus Station.
The Alliance defenders at Shanxi, besieged by the orbiting
turians, were then forced to fight a guerrilla campaign on the ground.
The turians, however, slowly squeezed the defenders into submission.
Dropping orbiting debris, the turians leveled entire city blocks just to
destroy one marine fire team whenever they attempted to procure food
and supplies. Eventually, with the troops starving and civilians dying
every day, the garrison surrendered and the turians occupied the colony.
However, the turians then faced logistical problems of their own as their unique biology
required them to import all of their food. Nevertheless, the turian
forces believed they were secure, and that the handful of ships they had
defeated represented the bulk of human naval forces. They were
unprepared when the Second Fleet under Admiral Kastanie Drescher launched a powerful counteroffensive and evicted them from Shanxi.
In response, the turians began mobilizing for full-scale war. However, after seeing the turians forced off of Shanxi, the Citadel Council
realised just how well-trained, equipped and adaptable the Alliance
forces were, and understood that a war between the turians and the
Alliance could be devastating to the galaxy. They intervened and
brokered a truce."

[IanPolaris]

didymos1120 wrote...

cgrimm54 wrote...

I'm assuming by 2185 Mars has been at least to some extent terraformed.

Not according the the planet entry. It merely says it was considered a prospect for it before FTL was discovered. The implication is that the idea was dropped.

Makes sense actually.  Cheap Mass-effect fields would make it very easy to live on mars in shielded cities or industrial/mining centres, and with FTL better colonization prospects are only a jump away regardless.

-Polaris

[Someone With Mass]

didymos1120 wrote...

cgrimm54 wrote...

I'm assuming by 2185 Mars has been at least to some extent terraformed.

Not according the the planet entry. It merely says it was considered a prospect for it before FTL was discovered. The implication is that the idea was dropped.

Then again, the entry only says that the humans colonized the planet, and doesn't specify whenever they terraformed it or not.

[IanPolaris]

Someone With Mass wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

cgrimm54 wrote...

I'm assuming by 2185 Mars has been at least to some extent terraformed.

Not according the the planet entry. It merely says it was considered a prospect for it before FTL was discovered. The implication is that the idea was dropped.

Then again, the entry only says that the humans colonized the planet, and doesn't specify whenever they terraformed it or not.

It wouldn't make sense to terraform Mars though in the Mass Effect universe.  With Mass-Effect Fields, cities, mines, or industrial cities could be 'pressurized' easily enough, and the cost of terraforming a planet would be enormous.  Far better to simply jump to an Earthlike planet in a nearby system.

-Polaris

[Wulfram]

MisterJB wrote...

Could you pleas elaborate?

The shooting incident at Relay 314 will have been carried out by a relatively junior officer.  They likely won't have had a clear account of it before the humans have struck back and destroyed the Turian force.

And no serious superpower can allow a bunch of primitives to destroy one of your military forces with impunity.  Even if the primitives were actually in the right, you can hardly admit that.

Maybe, maybe not. What we do know for sure is that the turians tought they has defeated the bulk of humanity's strenght. So, one way or the other, they intended to cripple humanity for good.

They likely intended to fight a short victorious war, destroy humanity's navy and impose a probably fairly harsh treaty.  This is going deep into the realms of speculation, but I'd guess it's terms would include restrictions on human military, extra-solar colonisation, as well as acceptance of war guilt.

[Someone With Mass]

And what if they simply tried it for the sake of developing a way of terraforming planets in case they need it?

Not all planets are going to be like Earth, you know.

[1136342t54_]

IanPolaris wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Here it is: We have the codex entries for the Turians and Humanity. In the case of Humanity, the date of associate membership AND full membership are clearly deliniated. In the case of the Turians, had the Turians been an associate member, that date would likewise have been noted.

It is not. The Turian codex entry only states when the Turians were inducted into the Cidadel Council AS FULL MEMBERS.

The conclusion is clear: The Turians were never associate members. [It's worth noting that all races that are or were associate members have that date listed in the respective codex entries. So far humanity is the only one to be promoted from associated to full.]

-Polaris

The Elcor nor the Hanar don't. 

They are only associate members and have never been anything but and I DO believe their join dates are listed.  It also doesn't diminish my point at all.

IF the Turians had been associate members later promoted, their codex entry should clearly say so like it does for humanity.  Instead it strongly implies they were inducted as full members after being allies only.

-Polaris

Well go look for it. I didn't see their join date. It isn't unlikely the Codex just glossed over their join date like they did with the others.

[1136342t54_]

Now get back on topic regarding the thread. I'm wondering how far they will be taking the Cybernetic implants.

Will it be similar to Deus Ex HR or Ghost in the Shell?

We do know that cybernetics can increase strength and durability to the point where Shepard can face Yahg in hand to hand and not get torn a part.

Modifié par 1136342t54 , 10 janvier 2012 - 12:06 .