22 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonny20]

I believe the Maker is actually an ancient Dragon, incredibly intelligent and enormous in size, not made of flesh or bone, but of pure Lyrium. Living Lyrium. A massive living enchantment. It dwells in the Deep Roads, yet can control the fade at will. Similar to the Lyrium wells in Amgarrak.

I Also believe he helped create the Deep Roads, was at war with other Gods and himself capable of great magical power.

As soon as you enter his lair in the ancient Deep Roads you are taken to the Fade. This is what the Tevinter Magisters did, and were corrupted. As the story goes, they were cast down, back to Earth, but in reality they simply fled back into the Deep Roads, forever changed, corrupting everything they touched. The blood inside the Darkspawn, the taint, is corrupted Lyrium. Corrupted by a powerful spell, using the blood of thousands of slaves.

Those with the taint hear the call of the Old Gods (similar to the Maker himself). Calling them to extract revenge on the ancient Dragon who defeated them in wars long since forgotten, before elves, humans, dwarfs or otherwise even existed. The Lyrium also sings. For most people, it sends them completely insane, fade spirits are unaffected but mortals cannot endure the music. Only one person was able to here the Makers song, Andraste.

He told her many things. The evil magic taught to humanity from his enemies, the wickedness of the Teventers, and how his playthings of the Fade should not be able to cross the Veil.

She cried his message to any that would listen and in time the Chantry was born.

[Marko GW]

Interesting read, I like when people lay out theories about the game.

I still have a strong feeling that there is something between Sandal and Flemeth, I can't say what exactly.

[whykikyouwhy]

Jonny20 wrote...

I believe the Maker is actually an ancient Dragon, incredibly intelligent and enormous in size, not made of flesh or bone, but of pure Lyrium. Living Lyrium. A massive living enchantment. It dwells in the Deep Roads, yet can control the fade at will. Similar to the Lyrium wells in Amgarrak.

I Also believe he helped create the Deep Roads, was at war with other Gods and himself capable of great magical power.

As soon as you enter his lair in the ancient Deep Roads you are taken to the Fade. This is what the Tevinter Magisters did, and were corrupted. As the story goes, they were cast down, back to Earth, but in reality they simply fled back into the Deep Roads, forever changed, corrupting everything they touched. The blood inside the Darkspawn, the taint, is corrupted Lyrium. Corrupted by a powerful spell, using the blood of thousands of slaves.

Regarding the bolded bits - does the Maker then dwell in the Deep Roads, or in the Fade? And if he (?) is in the Deep Roads, why would he (?) cast the magisters back to where they could attempt to enter his lair again? Wouldn't he seek to banish them as far away as possible (lest they attempt another invasion into his realm)?

Or are you saying that the Maker is split into (at least) two entities - one physical (a dragon in the Deep Roads) and one ethereal (a being purely of and in the Fade)?

Just curious about the logistics.

[Storm Farron]

I believe the Maker is just a extremely powerful DEMON!

[Fast Jimmy]

What I don't get is what the Tevinter Imperium thought was in the Golden City. Since worship of the Maker did not begin until Andraste, which was after the first Blight and the corruption into the Black City, what did they expect to find there?

[Jonny20]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Or are you saying that the Maker is split into (at least) two entities - one physical (a dragon in the Deep Roads) and one ethereal (a being purely of and in the Fade)?

Just curious about the logistics.

Two entities with absolute control over both.

I think he lives in the Fade, as the other Gods do. Even Archdemons semi live in the Fade. With the mortal shell somewhere in the Deep Roads, calling out. The old gods indeed could simply be ancient High Dragons, (maybe the first of thire kind) possessed by a Fade spirit and then corrupted by the taint. Such a creature would be worthy of worship by an early Tevinter, I would have thought.

And if he (?) is in the Deep Roads, why would he (?) cast the magisters
back to where they could attempt to enter his lair again? Wouldn't he
seek to banish them as far away as possible (lest they attempt another
invasion into his realm)?

Maybe they wasn't cast out. Maybe the spell backfired or the Maker used Lyrium (similar to that of the Idol) turning them into the first Darkspawn. As soon as they were corrupted, they cared nothing for the Maker or Golden City. Immediately they began to hear the call of the old Gods and wanted nothing more then to free the beast and destroy the World and everything in it.

All fickle speculation, of course but fun nonetheless.

Modifié par Jonny20, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:03 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Regarding "as soon as they were corrupted, they cared nothing for the Maker or Golden City. Immediately they began to hear the call of the old Gods and wanted nothing more than to free the best and destroy the World and everything in it" - have you by chance played the Legacy DLC yet?

I can't go into detail here due to this being a no spoiler zone, but there are indications that yes, hubris was involved with the efforts of the magisters, but I did not get the impression that all-out, total destruction was something commonly embraced, post-invasion.

[Jonny20]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding "as soon as they were corrupted, they cared nothing for the Maker or Golden City. Immediately they began to hear the call of the old Gods and wanted nothing more than to free the best and destroy the World and everything in it" - have you by chance played the Legacy DLC yet?

I can't go into detail here due to this being a no spoiler zone, but there are indications that yes, hubris was involved with the efforts of the magisters, but I did not get the impression that all-out, total destruction was something commonly embraced, post-invasion.

All out destruction is what I see when a Blight begins, maybe that isn't the case.

Obviously a Blight hadn't begun, but after they found Dumat, at least. destruction it was. What is a Blight if not destroying the world? Maybe the are trying to change Thedas somehow, with the taint. I don't know.

Modifié par Jonny20, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:53 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I took your reference of "all out destruction" to be an implication of intent on the part of the (corrupted) magisters, which isn't the impression I had. Obtaining power and possible dominance over Thedas? Yes. Conscious destruction of everything in order to free an old god? No. Maybe on the part of the darkspawn horde, but not so much on the magisters, I'm thinking.

But certainly, a Blight is a force of destruction.

[Jonny20]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I took your reference of "all out destruction" to be an implication of intent on the part of the (corrupted) magisters, which isn't the impression I had. Obtaining power and possible dominance over Thedas? Yes. Conscious destruction of everything in order to free an old god? No. Maybe on the part of the darkspawn horde, but not so much on the magisters, I'm thinking.

But certainly, a Blight is a force of destruction.

I shouldn't have used the line "Destroy the World and everything in it". It's just when I think of a Blight and the darkspwan, that is what I see.

I agree, Corythus and his Magister chums wouldn't want the World completely obliterated. This certainty wasn't their intent before being corrupted. Though once tainted, I assume they do whatever Dumat demands. Thralls.

If the games are to be believed the Magisters did go to the Golden City for power, and so forth. The seeking of the Old Gods and wanting to destroy/change the world through Blight happened after they were corrupted, obviously.

Modifié par Jonny20, 10 janvier 2012 - 03:53 .

[eroeru]

I love this type of speculation.

(though haven't got anything to add, sadly).

Keep up on the spirit!

Btw, this is what I want from Dragon Age - mythological magnitude... A blessing that DA2 didn't touch on anything world-changing, aside the simple fact that the mage-"rebellion" seems to start from there.

[WhiteKnyght]

I think there is more truth to the Dalish lore than the Chantry's lore.

Reasons why.

1. Flemeth, a mysterious, immensely powerful being who can apparently predict future events before they happen, has a historical connection to the Dalish which hasn't yet been entirely explained. We do know that the Dalish respect and obey her wishes.

2. If you choose to kill the Dalish tribe in Origins, the Lady of the Forest will imply that Witherfang is The Dread Wolf. She says "You summoned a spirit and bound it to the dread wolf." and if you ally with Zathrian and kill Witherfang he refers to it as "dread beast"

As we know, the Fade shapes itself to reflect the physical world through people's minds and dreams. So perhaps that's all it is. A dream world created by all the minds of Thedas connecting(Sort of like a human instrumentality project. If anybody here is an Eva fan they should understand what I mean.) Hence why Somniari mages can go into other people's dreams while in the Fade and enter it consciously without the aid of Lyrium.

The spirits and demons of the Fade could be the souls of people who die. The essence of the person becomes part of the fade, while what's left manifests itself as a spirit or demon, depending on what the person was like when living and what their strongest virtue/sin was.

As for the Maker, it could be a human name for one of the members of the Dalish Pantheon. Like El'garnan or Mythal. The seven old gods could be the forgotten ones.

[The Hierophant]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I think there is more truth to the Dalish lore than the Chantry's lore.

Reasons why.

1. Flemeth, a mysterious, immensely powerful being who can apparently predict future events before they happen, has a historical connection to the Dalish which hasn't yet been entirely explained. We do know that the Dalish respect and obey her wishes.

2. If you choose to kill the Dalish tribe in Origins, the Lady of the Forest will imply that Witherfang is The Dread Wolf. She says "You summoned a spirit and bound it to the dread wolf." and if you ally with Zathrian and kill Witherfang he refers to it as "dread beast"

As we know, the Fade shapes itself to reflect the physical world through people's minds and dreams. So perhaps that's all it is. A dream world created by all the minds of Thedas connecting(Sort of like a human instrumentality project. If anybody here is an Eva fan they should understand what I mean.) Hence why Somniari mages can go into other people's dreams while in the Fade and enter it consciously without the aid of Lyrium.

The spirits and demons of the Fade could be the souls of people who die. The essence of the person becomes part of the fade, while what's left manifests itself as a spirit or demon, depending on what the person was like when living and what their strongest virtue/sin was.

As for the Maker, it could be a human name for one of the members of the Dalish Pantheon. Like El'garnan or Mythal. The seven old gods could be the forgotten ones.

I like this theory as well the op's, and i hope somewhere down the road there's confirmation on actual deities in Thedas.

On the subject of the nature of the Fade being a dream/astral realm, it's possible that it's the dreams or the
subconscious of the Maker himself. This would make the Golden City  a physical manisfestation of the Maker's Id, Ego, Superego. Considering what entering the Golden City did to the magisters, i'd feel sorry for the Maker's therapist. Ironically this would mean that mages are closer to The Maker than what the Chantry faithful preach.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 10 janvier 2012 - 07:51 .

[RenaissanceDweeb]

The Hierophant wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I think there is more truth to the Dalish lore than the Chantry's lore.

Reasons why.

1. Flemeth, a mysterious, immensely powerful being who can apparently predict future events before they happen, has a historical connection to the Dalish which hasn't yet been entirely explained. We do know that the Dalish respect and obey her wishes.

2. If you choose to kill the Dalish tribe in Origins, the Lady of the Forest will imply that Witherfang is The Dread Wolf. She says "You summoned a spirit and bound it to the dread wolf." and if you ally with Zathrian and kill Witherfang he refers to it as "dread beast"

As we know, the Fade shapes itself to reflect the physical world through people's minds and dreams. So perhaps that's all it is. A dream world created by all the minds of Thedas connecting(Sort of like a human instrumentality project. If anybody here is an Eva fan they should understand what I mean.) Hence why Somniari mages can go into other people's dreams while in the Fade and enter it consciously without the aid of Lyrium.

The spirits and demons of the Fade could be the souls of people who die. The essence of the person becomes part of the fade, while what's left manifests itself as a spirit or demon, depending on what the person was like when living and what their strongest virtue/sin was.

As for the Maker, it could be a human name for one of the members of the Dalish Pantheon. Like El'garnan or Mythal. The seven old gods could be the forgotten ones.

I like this theory as well the op's, and i hope somewhere down the road there's confirmation on actual deities in Thedas.

On the subject of the nature of the Fade being a dream/astral realm, it's possible that it's the dreams or the
subconscious of the Maker himself. This would make the Golden City  a physical manisfestation of the Maker's Id, Ego, Superego. Considering what entering the Golden City did to the magisters, i'd feel sorry for the Maker's therapist. Ironically this would mean that mages are closer to The Maker than what the Chantry faithful preach.

Not much to add to this. Just quoting to state I agree. There's been a lot of theorycrafting about this and I do believe that the humans subsumed parts of elvhen culture and made it their own, even going so far as to take their gods and make them their own. And if the gods, which we know are dragons, were the ones to apparently teach the Tevinters magic then that would further stand to reason that they were the gods of the elvhen who had magic before humanity was even around.

[The Hierophant]

RenaissanceDweeb wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I think there is more truth to the Dalish lore than the Chantry's lore.

Reasons why.

1. Flemeth, a mysterious, immensely powerful being who can apparently predict future events before they happen, has a historical connection to the Dalish which hasn't yet been entirely explained. We do know that the Dalish respect and obey her wishes.

2. If you choose to kill the Dalish tribe in Origins, the Lady of the Forest will imply that Witherfang is The Dread Wolf. She says "You summoned a spirit and bound it to the dread wolf." and if you ally with Zathrian and kill Witherfang he refers to it as "dread beast"

As we know, the Fade shapes itself to reflect the physical world through people's minds and dreams. So perhaps that's all it is. A dream world created by all the minds of Thedas connecting(Sort of like a human instrumentality project. If anybody here is an Eva fan they should understand what I mean.) Hence why Somniari mages can go into other people's dreams while in the Fade and enter it consciously without the aid of Lyrium.

The spirits and demons of the Fade could be the souls of people who die. The essence of the person becomes part of the fade, while what's left manifests itself as a spirit or demon, depending on what the person was like when living and what their strongest virtue/sin was.

As for the Maker, it could be a human name for one of the members of the Dalish Pantheon. Like El'garnan or Mythal. The seven old gods could be the forgotten ones.

I like this theory as well the op's, and i hope somewhere down the road there's confirmation on actual deities in Thedas.

On the subject of the nature of the Fade being a dream/astral realm, it's possible that it's the dreams or the
subconscious of the Maker himself. This would make the Golden City  a physical manisfestation of the Maker's Id, Ego, Superego. Considering what entering the Golden City did to the magisters, i'd feel sorry for the Maker's therapist. Ironically this would mean that mages are closer to The Maker than what the Chantry faithful preach.

Not much to add to this. Just quoting to state I agree. There's been a lot of theorycrafting about this and I do believe that the humans subsumed parts of elvhen culture and made it their own, even going so far as to take their gods and make them their own. And if the gods, which we know are dragons, were the ones to apparently teach the Tevinters magic then that would further stand to reason that they were the gods of the elvhen who had magic before humanity was even around.

That's a good theory too. This also reminds me of the gods in MBoTF. Empires, tribes would war against each other in the name of their pantheon of gods, only for the reader to find out that their gods are one and the same.

[WhiteKnyght]

RenaissanceDweeb wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I think there is more truth to the Dalish lore than the Chantry's lore.

Reasons why.

1. Flemeth, a mysterious, immensely powerful being who can apparently predict future events before they happen, has a historical connection to the Dalish which hasn't yet been entirely explained. We do know that the Dalish respect and obey her wishes.

2. If you choose to kill the Dalish tribe in Origins, the Lady of the Forest will imply that Witherfang is The Dread Wolf. She says "You summoned a spirit and bound it to the dread wolf." and if you ally with Zathrian and kill Witherfang he refers to it as "dread beast"

As we know, the Fade shapes itself to reflect the physical world through people's minds and dreams. So perhaps that's all it is. A dream world created by all the minds of Thedas connecting(Sort of like a human instrumentality project. If anybody here is an Eva fan they should understand what I mean.) Hence why Somniari mages can go into other people's dreams while in the Fade and enter it consciously without the aid of Lyrium.

The spirits and demons of the Fade could be the souls of people who die. The essence of the person becomes part of the fade, while what's left manifests itself as a spirit or demon, depending on what the person was like when living and what their strongest virtue/sin was.

As for the Maker, it could be a human name for one of the members of the Dalish Pantheon. Like El'garnan or Mythal. The seven old gods could be the forgotten ones.

I like this theory as well the op's, and i hope somewhere down the road there's confirmation on actual deities in Thedas.

On the subject of the nature of the Fade being a dream/astral realm, it's possible that it's the dreams or the
subconscious of the Maker himself. This would make the Golden City  a physical manisfestation of the Maker's Id, Ego, Superego. Considering what entering the Golden City did to the magisters, i'd feel sorry for the Maker's therapist. Ironically this would mean that mages are closer to The Maker than what the Chantry faithful preach.

Not much to add to this. Just quoting to state I agree. There's been a lot of theorycrafting about this and I do believe that the humans subsumed parts of elvhen culture and made it their own, even going so far as to take their gods and make them their own. And if the gods, which we know are dragons, were the ones to apparently teach the Tevinters magic then that would further stand to reason that they were the gods of the elvhen who had magic before humanity was even around.

Another thing to note. I dunno if its the same for 360 and PC, but in the PS3 version of Origins, part of Leliana's version of In Uthenera plays(or a similar sounding one) plays in the XMB menu.

Also in the Credits of DAII, after 'I'm not calling you a liar' by Florence + The Machine plays, the same music(or similar) that plays when Marethari arrives in the Alienage plays for the rest of the credits.

So it seems that Dalish/Elven associated music is sort of an unofficial theme for the series.

___________________________________

Back to the game elements. Another event in Thedas' history to back my claims is this.

The way Tevinter subjugated Arlathan and the elves could be another indicator of Dalish lore being true.

The Arlathan elves worshipped the Elven Pantheon, the enemies of the Forgotten Ones. If the forgotten ones are the Old-gods(Their own title implies a similarity), it's possible that the reason they whispered to humankind, taught them blood magic, and lead to the destruction of the elvhen empire and founding of Tevinter was pure revenge. By doing that, they unseated the Pantheon and established themselves as the beings of worship in Thedas.

But that's only step one. Even though they are revered, they are still trapped because of Fen'Harel's trickery. So they lure the Magisters into the black city to become tainted and mutated into the first darkspawn, so they would have beings capable of awakening them and releasing them from their ancient prisons.Thus begins the blights, the Forgotten Ones' seige on the lands the Pantheon created.

Andraste could have either been a prophet of one of the Pantheon, the one mankind knows as The Maker. Since she rose against Tevinter and ended worship of the old gods. Or she could have been a Somniari Blood Mage who lied to support her own personal vendetta.

If you don't get what I mean by "Somniari Blood Mage", I'll elaborate. Andraste was described as being blessed with the Maker's powers. She could summon droughts, floods, etc. She could convert people to her cause just by letting them hear her singing.

- As we know, Somniari, aka Dreamers, can enter the Fade without Lyrium. And they have extraordinary powers in the Fade and can even alter the living world. Which affecting the weather and whatnot would fit into. The Guardian also said that sometimes Andraste would meditate for long periods of time. Which could have mean that she was really in the Fade.

- As we know again. Mind domination is a product of blood magic. It can be hidden in seduction, talking, or likely any other means. Andraste was probably indoctrinating people with Blood Magic by making them hear her song. Probably all it took was for them to focus their attention on her.

We also know that despite Andraste allegedly having the powers of a god, she was able to be captured and executed. It doesn't matter why the Maker didn't save her, it's why a warrior with a cause couldn't save herself to see it through.

As for Hessarian hearing the Maker tell him to end her suffering. It could very well have been Andraste herself indroctrinating him. Basically by getting the Archon brainwashed to her will, she could of course get a quicker death, but also have her cause continued since the Archon himself would convert to her beliefs. But what she didn't expect was that time would undo all she had accomplished.

[Ponendus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

What I don't get is what the Tevinter Imperium thought was in the Golden City. Since worship of the Maker did not begin until Andraste, which was after the first Blight and the corruption into the Black City, what did they expect to find there?

This! So much this!

My only guess is that they knew more about the Maker than anyone and so wanted to stop the word being spread. That way they would retain power. 

[WhiteKnyght]

Ponendus wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

What I don't get is what the Tevinter Imperium thought was in the Golden City. Since worship of the Maker did not begin until Andraste, which was after the first Blight and the corruption into the Black City, what did they expect to find there?

This! So much this!

My only guess is that they knew more about the Maker than anyone and so wanted to stop the word being spread. That way they would retain power. 

Did you play Legacy?

Corypheus basically says that the old gods invited them to the Golden City and were promised the power of the gods. They didn't believe in The Maker, they thought the old gods were the true gods.

[HiroVoid]

I heard The Maker being mentioned in both Mass Effect and SWTOR. He's obviously inter-dimensional, whatever he is.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Much like human spirituality. First there was a pantheon, something some still accept, then came the One God theology which was accepted by the majority but, perhaps not all.

Now if the Maker is even any more than a powerful human, perhaps even a mage and, is in fact an immortal deity, then is he the offspring of the old gods? Is he the sum of the good in them that had to go someplace when they became the archdemons? Or is it all an anti Tevinter, "white" Divine tale to foster rebellion and hatred for the Imperium and the Black Divine?

[Maria Caliban]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

What I don't get is what the Tevinter Imperium thought was in the Golden City. Since worship of the Maker did not begin until Andraste, which was after the first Blight and the corruption into the Black City, what did they expect to find there?

We don't know that the Magisters were trying to enter the Golden City, that's something Andreste said. She may have been right or wrong about it.

We do know that no one had physically entered the Fade previously and that when you are in the Fade there's a city that's viewable from all points but no one can reach.

They might have done it out of curiosity. It could have been like 'reach the moon' for America in the mid-nineteenth century. A great magical achievement that would show their might.

And who knows, they might have found something awesome in there. 'Unreachable magical city in the dream plane' sounds like it would be full of cool stuff.

The Hierophant wrote...

...and i hope somewhere down the road there's confirmation on actual deities in Thedas.

I believe David stated that he planned to never confirm or deny the existence of deities. That it's unknown is an important part of the setting.

Though things change.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 janvier 2012 - 05:55 .

[Ponendus]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

What I don't get is what the Tevinter Imperium thought was in the Golden City. Since worship of the Maker did not begin until Andraste, which was after the first Blight and the corruption into the Black City, what did they expect to find there?

This! So much this!

My only guess is that they knew more about the Maker than anyone and so wanted to stop the word being spread. That way they would retain power. 

Did you play Legacy?

Corypheus basically says that the old gods invited them to the Golden City and were promised the power of the gods. They didn't believe in The Maker, they thought the old gods were the true gods.

Ah! Thank you good sir. I did play it once but must have missed this important point.

[Twilight Dragon]

In DA3 who wants to go to the Black City on a optional side quest to get the nost poweful equipment in the game but the catch is you have to defeat the maker in combat plus you get to rescue Andraste and bring her back to the real world, then bring her to the divine to tell her how she really defeated the Tevinter Emperium.

Modifié par Twilight Dragon, 28 décembre 2012 - 09:33 .