95 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Also, the Chantry is spreading subversion against itself in DAII. Petrice's comments about a schism in the Chantry if she survives into Act III is evidence of this

Though I should say that Hawke can indeed still spread things that are detrimental to the status of the Chantry in DAII anyway.

Hell, his being an apostate that's able to avoid being sent to the Circle and is able to live outside of the Circle without causing harm to anyone is him intending to spread subversion against the Chantry.

The Chantry has preached that mages cannot be politically involved and free for another Tevinter would arise, yet Hawke does this.

The Chantry says that mages not under the "care" of the Circle are a threat to themselves and the populus, yet Hawke disproves this notion that all mages fall into this group.

LinksOcarina wrote...

1, even if you had the choice of killing her, it makes no sense to do so even after she spills the beans. It accomplishes nothing and would throw a widget into yours plans as Hawke because then you will be going nowhere but a jail cell if you are caught. Even if it's an IF, why would Hawke risk that. Plus I am sure half of your companions would not appreciate such an act.

Actually, all of the companions really dislike Petrice for her act. Recently I loaded up numerous saves and every one of them say things with scorn in their voice towards Petrice.

Granted, Varric wouldn't like killing her because he's generally against resorting to violence. However, he's the only one who would disapprove of such an act. Aveline would be able to manipulate the City Guard to stay off of Hawke's trail if her quest is done prior to Shepherding Wolves -- where she's named Captain -- and I'm assuming that Jeven hasn't really done much honest Guard work.

But as I said, I never wanted to kill Petrice. I just wanted a good in game reason why that wasn't an option.

And they mention several times the Qunari are waiting for a ship. Act I and Act II is all about that, the original reasons for them being there that they gave.

I know that's the reason given, but even then that's fairly flimsy if you think about it.

Because on that ship, more Qunari would be present. And one could assume that they would send more than one ship to pick up the others. So more Qunari on the way could equal in a Thedosian's mind Qunari reinforcements to assault Kirkwall.

Anyway, over the ensuing months that reason grows less believable for the Thedosian population in Kirkwall.

The player doesn't know how long Petrice will in fact lay low. She could lay low for a couple months, then resume her actions.

Even though the Qunari aren't a threat at that time, Petrice is.

I get you want a proactive character, but the game is designed for a reactive one. If it was proactive, then Cassandra would have been right and there would have been no need to interrogate Varric.

Technically she would've been wrong still.

Cassandra believes Hawke started the war. He didn't. The war was secretly going on before the Champion ever would've gotten involved and was officially started by Anders' actions and Meredith's actions.

Cassandra believes that he spread subversion against the Chantry. He wouldn't have. He would've either helped the Chantry, done nothing, or spread subversion against Meredith's measures.
 
At least as far as Varric would've told Cassandra.

Headcanon could make one person's Hawke make Cassandra's assumptions right, but Varric might not know these things that Hawke was thinking. Or Varric would've lied, but the player wouldn't know which is the case.

In which case Cassandra's assumptions are still wrong, since headcanon varies and isn't actually canon in terms of the overall storyline.

And something tells me that was some really horrid grammar I just typed out

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:49 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Ok you got me on a few points, but once again, you misunderstand a few things.

1, even if you had the choice of killing her, it makes no sense to do so even after she spills the beans. It accomplishes nothing and would throw a widget into yours plans as Hawke because then you will be going nowhere but a jail cell if you are caught. Even if it's an IF, why would Hawke risk that. Plus I am sure half of your companions would not appreciate such an act.

And they mention several times the Qunari are waiting for a ship. Act I and Act II is all about that, the original reasons for them being there that they gave.

But everything you talk about is retroactive thinking, looking at the game after the fact once you have all the information to make a decision like that is the problem. Basically, Hawke has no reason to go after Meredith or Orsino, or get involved in the mage/templar conflict until the very end. Working for one side over another, even if he supports their point of view or not, is not fundamental to the choices you are making. Hawke wishes to stay neutral and does so until he can't no longer.

I get you want a proactive character, but the game is designed for a reactive one. If it was proactive, then Cassandra would have been right and there would have been no need to interrogate Varric.

Petrice would be lying face-down in the dirt in Lowtown. No one would miss her, and her being brutally stabbed to death would be such average fare, no one would know Hawke and Co. committed the murders.

[TEWR]

Petrice would be lying face-down in the dirt in Lowtown. No one would miss her, and her being brutally stabbed to death would be such average fare, no one would know Hawke and Co. committed the murders.

That's true. Varric says that murder is fairly commonplace in Lowtown at both nighttime and daytime.

[WhiteKnyght]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I've noticed that there's a trend in Dragon Age II and it's DLC expansions for Hawke to screw things up and for letting the villain go - it's a trend that started with Hawke letting Sister Petrice go after she revealed her plans to start a religious war in Kirkwall, and has continued in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, where Hawke unleashed a dangerous, talking darkspawn on Thedas after letting the possessed Warden go, and later when Hawke let Tallis go when she fulfilled her objective to protect Qunari secrets and the names of Qunari agents throughout Thedas. 

Is this an inevitable trend that will continue with future Dragon Age II DLC storylines?

1. Hawke killing a Chantry sister and her Templar guard would draw him unneeded attention from the Templars. Who knows how many people Petrice was working with or how many people she told about him, after all.

2. Hawke didn't know that Corypheus possessed Larius/Janeka and they were his ally.

3. Tallis wasn't evil. And you're contradicting yourself. You condemn Hawke for letting sister Petrice try to start a war against the Qunari but you condemn him again for protecting innocent Qunari from people who would create an atrocity even worse than Petrice was trying to start..

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 09 janvier 2012 - 11:16 .

[Gallimatia]

They could have made Hawke seek up Petrice in the Chantry to finish Shepherding Wolves. Few would ask for an option to kill her in the Chantry with plenty of Templars and followers around (but not in earshot).

Why was she in her hideout with a payout ready anyway? She wasn't expecting Hawke back and she was only in Lowtown to find a suitable sacrifice to begin with.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 09 janvier 2012 - 11:19 .

[TEWR]

Why was she in her hideout with a payout ready anyway? She wasn't expecting Hawke back and she was only in Lowtown to find a suitable sacrifice to begin with.

She was disposing of any evidence that implicated her.

[The Hierophant]

What gets to me is your inability to tell Elthina about Petrice's shenanigans in Shepherding Wolves.

[PrinceLionheart]

The Hierophant wrote...

What gets to me is your inability to tell Elthina about Petrice's shenanigans in Shepherding Wolves.

Not trying to defend the plot, but at the time, you're a random scoundrel from low town while Petrice is a chantry sister. At the time, you wouldn't exactly have any credibility

[TEWR]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

What gets to me is your inability to tell Elthina about Petrice's shenanigans in Shepherding Wolves.

Not trying to defend the plot, but at the time, you're a random scoundrel from low town while Petrice is a chantry sister. At the time, you wouldn't exactly have any credibility

Elthina seems like the person that would've investigated on her own, just to verify herself whether it was a common thug's accusation or whether there was any truth to it.

Ultimately, it wouldn't matter whether she did investigate since Petrice was good at covering her tracks, which is why the player needs a good reason provided to them why killing her isn't an option.

[Wulfram]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Not trying to defend the plot, but at the time, you're a random scoundrel from low town while Petrice is a chantry sister. At the time, you wouldn't exactly have any credibility

You're not going to get Petrice locked up on Hawke's say so, but you'd think Elthina would go "Hmm, she does seem a bit crazy.  I'll try and keep an eye on her" even if she officially she was obliged to disbelieve him.

They should have had Petrice do a bit of blackmail about Hawke/Bethany being a mage

[TEWR]

They should have had Petrice do a bit of blackmail about Hawke/Bethany being a mage

Precisely part of what I proposed on the previous page.

I mean, it was the perfect opportunity for such a thing to be made evident and yet Bioware didn't do anything about it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 janvier 2012 - 11:50 .

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

What gets to me is your inability to tell Elthina about Petrice's shenanigans in Shepherding Wolves.

Not trying to defend the plot, but at the time, you're a random scoundrel from low town while Petrice is a chantry sister. At the time, you wouldn't exactly have any credibility

Elthina seems like the person that would've investigated on her own, just to verify herself whether it was a common thug's accusation or whether there was any truth to it.

Ultimately, it wouldn't matter whether she did investigate since Petrice was good at covering her tracks, which is why the player needs a good reason provided to them why killing her isn't an option.

Even though it wouldn't  change the end result, Just letting Elthina know something is going on behind her back, would make my Hawke sleep better at night.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Grey Nayr wrote...



3. Tallis wasn't evil. And you're contradicting yourself. You condemn Hawke for letting sister Petrice try to start a war against the Qunari but you condemn him again for protecting innocent Qunari from people who would create an atrocity even worse than Petrice was trying to start..

Killing blackshirts who are waiting for a brutal, expansionistic empire to conquer their countries of residence and providing the information to do it is not evil. It's a damned public service. Petrice attacked the Qunari out of fanaticism, and not pragmatism. Allowing enemy sleeper agents to live is not pragmatic in the slightest.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 10 janvier 2012 - 12:18 .

[WhiteKnyght]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...



3. Tallis wasn't evil. And you're contradicting yourself. You condemn Hawke for letting sister Petrice try to start a war against the Qunari but you condemn him again for protecting innocent Qunari from people who would create an atrocity even worse than Petrice was trying to start..

Killing blackshirts who are waiting for a brutal, expansionistic empire to conquer their countries of residence and providing the information to do it is not evil. It's a damned public service. Petrice attacked the Qunari out of fanaticism, and not pragmatism. Allowing enemy sleeper agents to live is not pragmatic in the slightest.

Well, more than the sleeper agents would be hurt. You heard Tallis, not every agent was still part of the Qun, some defected. And everyone who associated with them, their spouses, children, and friends would be condemned and killed.

It's not worth committing a moral atrocity to take out a few sleepers.

Not to mention that the Ariqun didn't even think that the list of sleepers was detrimental enough to matter. So it's not like a scroll of names is enough to stop the Qunari.

Also who cares if the Qunari are expansionistic, violent, and want to force everyone into their religion. The Orlesians and their chantry are no different. Or have you forgotten the Fereldan occupation, and the Chantry, Templars, and their Exalted Marches? lol

[Augustei]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Well, more than the sleeper agents would be hurt. You heard Tallis, not
every agent was still part of the Qun, some defected. And everyone who
associated with them, their spouses, children, and friends would be
condemned and killed.

It's not worth committing a moral atrocity to take out a few sleepers.

Yes, yes it is. Such is war and they were aware of what they were getting into when they agreed to hand out such information. Its especially worth commiting if it can halt the Qunari's efforts which will save far more lives in the longrun. Not remoing the agents of whome not all have defected is the bigger moral atrocity.

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Not to mention that the Ariqun didn't even think that the list of
sleepers was detrimental enough to matter. So it's not like a scroll of
names is enough to stop the Qunari.

Of course its not enough, but it can be damaging to their efforts..enemy having access to all our intel and information is damaging to our own defence and can result in a better offensive for them.

Also who cares if the Qunari are expansionistic, violent, and want to
force everyone into their religion. The Orlesians and their chantry are
no different. Or have you forgotten the Fereldan occupation, and the
Chantry, Templars, and their Exalted Marches? lol

Except one involves freedom of role in society and the other doesn't.. One involves being raised by a loving family and the other doesn't.. One involves having your own name and the other doesn't... One involves significantly more freedoms than the other. The Orlesian Empire isn't the absolute authority and doesn't have full control of Thedesian (or however it spelt) society. One involves maintaining a familiar custom, traditions and culture.. the otherone involves a complete overhaul in a short time which is disasterous. One involves limited freedom for mages, the other involves no freedom for mages and treats them like literal animals as opposed to just lesser citizens.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 10 janvier 2012 - 04:57 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...



3. Tallis wasn't evil. And you're contradicting yourself. You condemn Hawke for letting sister Petrice try to start a war against the Qunari but you condemn him again for protecting innocent Qunari from people who would create an atrocity even worse than Petrice was trying to start..

Killing blackshirts who are waiting for a brutal, expansionistic empire to conquer their countries of residence and providing the information to do it is not evil. It's a damned public service. Petrice attacked the Qunari out of fanaticism, and not pragmatism. Allowing enemy sleeper agents to live is not pragmatic in the slightest.

Well, more than the sleeper agents would be hurt. You heard Tallis, not every agent was still part of the Qun, some defected. And everyone who associated with them, their spouses, children, and friends would be condemned and killed.

It's not worth committing a moral atrocity to take out a few sleepers.

Not to mention that the Ariqun didn't even think that the list of sleepers was detrimental enough to matter. So it's not like a scroll of names is enough to stop the Qunari.

Also who cares if the Qunari are expansionistic, violent, and want to force everyone into their religion. The Orlesians and their chantry are no different. Or have you forgotten the Fereldan occupation, and the Chantry, Templars, and their Exalted Marches? lol

Okay, there's a very key difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying.

"We are no different," your argument, implies that I am arguing a moral high ground. I am not.

"Kill them all," as I am arguing, is about survival, power, and primacy. If even a single person follows the Qun, they must be killed for the good of all. The Qun is like a cancer. One cancerous cell is just as dangerous as the whole tumor. And that's not an exaggeration. Any follower of the Qun would sacrifice all other loyalties if they were asked to by the Ariqun.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 10 janvier 2012 - 05:21 .

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I've noticed that there's a trend in Dragon Age II and it's DLC expansions for Hawke to screw things up and for letting the villain go - it's a trend that started with Hawke letting Sister Petrice go after she revealed her plans to start a religious war in Kirkwall, and has continued in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, where Hawke unleashed a dangerous, talking darkspawn on Thedas after letting the possessed Warden go, and later when Hawke let Tallis go when she fulfilled her objective to protect Qunari secrets and the names of Qunari agents throughout Thedas. 

Is this an inevitable trend that will continue with future Dragon Age II DLC storylines?

1. Hawke killing a Chantry sister and her Templar guard would draw him unneeded attention from the Templars. Who knows how many people Petrice was working with or how many people she told about him, after all.

Who would know that Hawke killed Petrice in a hovel with no witnesses, besides anyone who Hawke chose to accompany him? And, more importantly, how does this change the fact that Hawke allows a dangerous person to leave and cause untold damage and death upon Kirkwall?

The Grey Nayr wrote...

2. Hawke didn't know that Corypheus possessed Larius/Janeka and they were his ally.

Regardless of the varying opinions on this matter (especially for a possessed Larius), it doesn't change that it's another example of Hawke allowing a dangerous bad guy to walk away... again.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

3. Tallis wasn't evil. 

Your opinion, not mine.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

And you're contradicting yourself. You condemn Hawke for letting sister Petrice try to start a war against the Qunari but you condemn him again for protecting innocent Qunari from people who would create an atrocity even worse than Petrice was trying to start..

I condemn Hawke for doing nothing about Sister Petrice when she made it clear that she wanted to incite a religious war, and I condemn Hawke for not doing anything to stop a Qunari agent - a member of a group that previously tried to invade Thedas to spread the Qun by force.

[TEWR]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Except one involves freedom of role in society and the other doesn't.. One involves being raised by a loving family and the other doesn't.. One involves having your own name and the other doesn't... One involves significantly more freedoms than the other. The Orlesian Empire isn't the absolute authority and doesn't have full control of Thedesian (or however it spelt) society. One involves maintaining a familiar custom, traditions and culture.. the otherone involves a complete overhaul in a short time which is disasterous. One involves limited freedom for mages, the other involves no freedom for mages and treats them like literal animals as opposed to just lesser citizens.

To be fair, the Qun is better than typical Thedosian society in certain regards. Not all, but a fair amount.

And this is fact, not opinion.

In typical Chantry society, Elves are lucky to get a job that casts them as servants. In Chantry society, Elves are restricted to living in slums. Very rarely will an elf be able to leave here.

In Qunari society however, Elves are considered equals and are capable of pretty much anything.

So the Qunari win one point in favor of them.

While the Qunari don't have family, they have friends. And I have always considered friends to be an extension of one's family, since family is so much more than who you're related to. So one could argue -- and Sten in the Fade supports my view as well as Bodahn's relationship to Sandal -- that the Qunari see their friends as their family.

The Chantry society however does treat its mages better, but not by much. Granted, I have defended how the Qunari treat their mages before by looking at it from a Qunari perspective in this thread. How right I was though I'm not sure.

I don't condone how they treat it, but I do try to see it from their point of view.

The three most abhorrent things about the Qun imo are as follows:

1) how they treat their mages
2) how they hunt Tal-Vashoth simply for being Tal-Vashoth
3) how they feel the need to enlighten people against their will

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your opinion, not mine.

I wouldn't call Tallis evil. The religion she's a part of can be seen as evil -- at least in its current form -- but I wouldn't call the person evil.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 janvier 2012 - 04:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Why does Hawke have to screw things up and let the bad guy go every time?

For the lulz Lob. For the lulz. Sarcastic Hawke makes the most sense.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I've noticed that there's a trend in Dragon Age II and it's DLC expansions for Hawke to screw things up and for letting the villain go - it's a trend that started with Hawke letting Sister Petrice go after she revealed her plans to start a religious war in Kirkwall, and has continued in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, where Hawke unleashed a dangerous, talking darkspawn on Thedas after letting the possessed Warden go, and later when Hawke let Tallis go when she fulfilled her objective to protect Qunari secrets and the names of Qunari agents throughout Thedas. 

Is this an inevitable trend that will continue with future Dragon Age II DLC storylines?

Other than Petrice, when is this every time?

(I have not played the DLC, so I only know of the main game)

[PrinceLionheart]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I've noticed that there's a trend in Dragon Age II and it's DLC expansions for Hawke to screw things up and for letting the villain go - it's a trend that started with Hawke letting Sister Petrice go after she revealed her plans to start a religious war in Kirkwall, and has continued in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, where Hawke unleashed a dangerous, talking darkspawn on Thedas after letting the possessed Warden go, and later when Hawke let Tallis go when she fulfilled her objective to protect Qunari secrets and the names of Qunari agents throughout Thedas. 

Is this an inevitable trend that will continue with future Dragon Age II DLC storylines?

Other than Petrice, when is this every time?

(I have not played the DLC, so I only know of the main game)

The only other time that comes to mind is the Bloodmage Serial Killer, but even then, Hawke only caught a brief glimpse of the guy.

[TEWR]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I've noticed that there's a trend in Dragon Age II and it's DLC expansions for Hawke to screw things up and for letting the villain go - it's a trend that started with Hawke letting Sister Petrice go after she revealed her plans to start a religious war in Kirkwall, and has continued in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, where Hawke unleashed a dangerous, talking darkspawn on Thedas after letting the possessed Warden go, and later when Hawke let Tallis go when she fulfilled her objective to protect Qunari secrets and the names of Qunari agents throughout Thedas. 

Is this an inevitable trend that will continue with future Dragon Age II DLC storylines?

Other than Petrice, when is this every time?

(I have not played the DLC, so I only know of the main game)

The only other time that comes to mind is the Bloodmage Serial Killer, but even then, Hawke only caught a brief glimpse of the guy.

He had enough information after The First Sacrifice in Act 1 to warrant an investigation into that specific area. Hell before Leandra was kidnapped he had enough information to know that someone was masquerading as a suitor to women and sending them lilies, so he could've at least warned her.

She still could've been kidnapped, but at least he would've said something.

And for some people -- myself not among them -- Corypheus fits the bill of a villain that Hawke let get away too easily.

Tallis for an anti-Qunari Hawke definitely fits this bill.

[GavrielKay]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Who would know that Hawke killed Petrice in a hovel with no witnesses, besides anyone who Hawke chose to accompany him? And, more importantly, how does this change the fact that Hawke allows a dangerous person to leave and cause untold damage and death upon Kirkwall?

I've tried to make this point before on other threads. 

Petrice is in Lowtown, looking for someone dodgy but competent to be her fall guy.  She is looking for someone who could not be linked to her if something goes wrong, but has a shot at getting far enough along the path to irritate the Qunari and raise tensions.  Given that, when you find her alone in a hovel in Lowtown at night...  there is absolutely no reason provided not to kill her.  She chose Hawke specifically because there was no link between them and thus there'd be no reason for an investigation into her death to involve Hawke.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 11 janvier 2012 - 06:48 .

[Malanu]

Filament wrote...

@TEWR Attempting to get the scroll and failing would just be weak and annoying, I'd rather not have Hawke be let to try if the devs are so set on the scroll returning to qunari hands for the sake of the setting that it's just going to lead to that.

Actually getting the scroll and giving it to the Qunari would have allowed for a possible peaceful solution as the Leader was there only to retrieve that one thing.

I thought it was a failure to force the game into a battle royal like that especially when there is going to be one 'tween the Templars and the Mages right around the corner. No giving a peaceful solution to one of those events... or even the ability to thumb my nose at them and walk away would have been cool. We have to face the music for our other choices why not give us that.

I needed a shower for how dirty I was left feeling after twice being unable to avert massive bloodshed, when a solution was so clase at hand.:innocent: