95 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

There is also one particularly annoying moment when Hawke sits on his hands. When he is supposed to hunt escaped mages one of which is a elven blood mage. Hawke has an option to assure the mages wife that " I will protect you". Despite this we get to watch how this mad blood mage butchers his wife and Hawke does nothing to prevent that. One of those moment when I had to say to myself "wtf" in the DA2 since I had promised to protect her.

[Realmzmaster]

Ukki wrote...

There is also one particularly annoying moment when Hawke sits on his hands. When he is supposed to hunt escaped mages one of which is a elven blood mage. Hawke has an option to assure the mages wife that " I will protect you". Despite this we get to watch how this mad blood mage butchers his wife and Hawke does nothing to prevent that. One of those moment when I had to say to myself "wtf" in the DA2 since I had promised to protect her.

Promising to protect and being able to protect are entirely two different actions.  Hawke could not stay with Nyssa otherwise Huon would not show up. Even if Hawke hide in Merrill's house it still would not prevent Huon from killing her. Unfortuately the trigger for that scene is Hawke and party entering the Alienage proper.

What could have been done is when Hawke and company land in the Alienage the gamer is given control of Nyssa. So you can have her run toward Hawke. Since blood mages can use mind control, Nyssa would stand still if Huon is able to establish control. Bioware could have secretly based the running to Hawke or standing still on one of Hawke's attributes chosen at random. If the attribute is high enough she lives and reaches Hawke otherwise she dies.  So you would have two cinematics depending on the outcome.

[Uccio]

^ or we could have had a option where Hawke would have hidden Nyssa and disguised Merrill or Isabela as her while staying close by to ambush the bad guy.

[maxernst]

Ukki wrote...

^ or we could have had a option where Hawke would have hidden Nyssa and disguised Merrill or Isabela as her while staying close by to ambush the bad guy.

Or allowed a rogue Hawke, or Isabella or Varric, all of whom ought to be able to conceal themselves adequately, hang around.

[WhiteKnyght]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Except one involves freedom of role in society and the other doesn't.. One involves being raised by a loving family and the other doesn't.. One involves having your own name and the other doesn't... One involves significantly more freedoms than the other. The Orlesian Empire isn't the absolute authority and doesn't have full control of Thedesian (or however it spelt) society. One involves maintaining a familiar custom, traditions and culture.. the otherone involves a complete overhaul in a short time which is disasterous. One involves limited freedom for mages, the other involves no freedom for mages and treats them like literal animals as opposed to just lesser citizens.

Only to a degree. The culture of Thedas doesn't allow too much freedom of role.

- Elves aren't expected to be anything more than servants and laborers. When they try to be more, humans kick them back down.

- Surface dwarves are generally expected to be smiths and merchants. You don't see too many dwarven servants, warriors, or nobles outside of Orzammar.

- And human roles are generally deterimined in a range depending on their birth or how much money they have.


The Qun has more freedoms and perks in it than people think.

- A person's assigned duty is based on what they are good at. True it might not be a person's dream job. But succeeding at something you're good at is better than struggling and failing at something you're bad at.

- The Qunari culture doesn't require currency or any kind of exchange for necessities. Anything you need like food, water, and clothing are automatically provided to you.

- The Qunari culture also doesn't appear to have any crime rates. So no muggings, rapes, or murders, in contrast to the human culture in which it happens daily is an appealing point.

The Qunari beliefs aren't perfect, but arguably neither is the Andrastian religion. Tallis even says that the qun still needs some work. If they changed their policy about mages and Tal-Vashoth, they'd be just fine.

But the Andrastians only condemn the Qunari because they believe the Qun's forcive conversion gets in the way of their own Chantry conversion. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

[Wulfram]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

- A person's assigned duty is based on what they are good at. True it might not be a person's dream job. But succeeding at something you're good at is better than struggling and failing at something you're bad at.

Their duty is based on what they're seen as good at when they're 12, according to the prejudices of the Talmassrans.  Not what they're actually good at.

- The Qunari culture doesn't require currency or any kind of exchange for necessities. Anything you need like food, water, and clothing are automatically provided to you.

Being a slave rather than a payed employee seems a rather strange "perk"

- The Qunari culture also doesn't appear to have any crime rates. So no muggings, rapes, or murders, in contrast to the human culture in which it happens daily is an appealing point.

Tal Vashoth seem to commit crimes, even if the Qunari apparently prefer not to count them.  And considering the likely consequences of refusing to mate with your assigned partner - either being sent to "reeducation" or being considered a Tal Vashoth and being killed - it's hard to say that this doesn't constitute rape.

[CrimsonZephyr]

When the ruling government commits all the crimes in the name of law and order, of course they would claim they had no crime. The Soviet Union used to make the same claims.

[WhiteKnyght]

Wulfram wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

- A person's assigned duty is based on what they are good at. True it might not be a person's dream job. But succeeding at something you're good at is better than struggling and failing at something you're bad at.

Their duty is based on what they're seen as good at when they're 12, according to the prejudices of the Talmassrans.  Not what they're actually good at.

- The Qunari culture doesn't require currency or any kind of exchange for necessities. Anything you need like food, water, and clothing are automatically provided to you.

Being a slave rather than a payed employee seems a rather strange "perk"

- The Qunari culture also doesn't appear to have any crime rates. So no muggings, rapes, or murders, in contrast to the human culture in which it happens daily is an appealing point.

Tal Vashoth seem to commit crimes, even if the Qunari apparently prefer not to count them.  And considering the likely consequences of refusing to mate with your assigned partner - either being sent to "reeducation" or being considered a Tal Vashoth and being killed - it's hard to say that this doesn't constitute rape.

Slaves get beaten by their masters and fed scraps while their masters feast. The food that the Qunari eat is probably the same from the Seerebas all the way to the Arishok himself. Also they don't crack a whip at the backs of their men either.

Real slavery is a lot more barbaric than how the qunari ranks operate.

[Fast Jimmy]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Slaves get beaten by their masters and fed scraps while their masters feast. The food that the Qunari eat is probably the same from the Seerebas all the way to the Arishok himself. Also they don't crack a whip at the backs of their men either.

Real slavery is a lot more barbaric than how the qunari ranks operate.

I'm not sure what you mean by "real" slavery. Slavery has existed the vast majority of human history and comes in as wide variety as indentured servants in the American colonials to the greek slaves, which were servants who were paid in food and shelter for a set amount of time, to Russian serfs, who were slaves to a particular piece of land, not a particular owner or lord, to war based slavery, where the conquered armies were shackled and forced to due manual labour, to racial slavery, where a certain ethnic group was enslaved due to their race, like the Jews in Egypt, to people sold into sexual slavery, forced to become unpaid prostitutes to a slave driver pimp.

All had varying reasons, purposes, degrees of work required, length of time of enslavement and treatment by their masters. None are the "true" version of slavery.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

- A person's assigned duty is based on what they are good at. True it might not be a person's dream job. But succeeding at something you're good at is better than struggling and failing at something you're bad at.

Their duty is based on what they're seen as good at when they're 12, according to the prejudices of the Talmassrans.  Not what they're actually good at.

- The Qunari culture doesn't require currency or any kind of exchange for necessities. Anything you need like food, water, and clothing are automatically provided to you.

Being a slave rather than a payed employee seems a rather strange "perk"

- The Qunari culture also doesn't appear to have any crime rates. So no muggings, rapes, or murders, in contrast to the human culture in which it happens daily is an appealing point.

Tal Vashoth seem to commit crimes, even if the Qunari apparently prefer not to count them.  And considering the likely consequences of refusing to mate with your assigned partner - either being sent to "reeducation" or being considered a Tal Vashoth and being killed - it's hard to say that this doesn't constitute rape.

Slaves get beaten by their masters and fed scraps while their masters feast. The food that the Qunari eat is probably the same from the Seerebas all the way to the Arishok himself. Also they don't crack a whip at the backs of their men either.

Real slavery is a lot more barbaric than how the qunari ranks operate.

Yes, saying "obey or we will mind-rape you with qamek or simply kill you" is the mark of a benevolent philosophy.

[Realmzmaster]

Ukki wrote...

^ or we could have had a option where Hawke would have hidden Nyssa and disguised Merrill or Isabela as her while staying close by to ambush the bad guy.

And you really think Huon would not know his own wife by her shape and size, especially if you try to disguise Isabela. At a distance Merril perhaps. but even then that is stretching it because Nyssa has no tattoos.

[Realmzmaster]

maxernst wrote...

Ukki wrote...

^ or we could have had a option where Hawke would have hidden Nyssa and disguised Merrill or Isabela as her while staying close by to ambush the bad guy.

Or allowed a rogue Hawke, or Isabella or Varric, all of whom ought to be able to conceal themselves adequately, hang around.

Which would be find if the character has stealth; Not all rogues are disquise masters. All of the three you mention would stand out otherwise in the alienage. Since the only human that came there was Thrask, even the guards do not patrol there.

[Wulfram]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Slaves get beaten by their masters and fed scraps while their masters feast. The food that the Qunari eat is probably the same from the Seerebas all the way to the Arishok himself. Also they don't crack a whip at the backs of their men either.

Well, they destroy your free will enough that whips are not necessary.  Anyone who needed to be whipped would surely be sent to be "reeducated"

That every Qunari is a slave does not make them any more free.

Real slavery is a lot more barbaric than how the qunari ranks operate.

"Real" slaves masters are at least neglectful enough that their minds are allowed to be free.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 janvier 2012 - 12:53 .

[Quething]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

He's a party to the plan, as I recall he can suggest the treaties himself.

He can't, unless one takes the line of "Surely there are other people we can rely on" to mean the treaties. And indeed, it leads to Alistair commenting on them.

Which is fair I guess, but it isn't necessarily a pure statement of it being his original plan.

Your Warden needs more Cunning.

Anyway I'm with KoP, I think it would be out of character for Hawke to do anything useful or follow through on a promise at this point. She's a putz, that's just how it is. She'll patiently wait for Grace and Huon to finish their long villain speeches and their protracted activation animations and slowly murder people instead of jumping in and actually trying to help their victims, she'll offer to kill Petrice and Tallis and then shrug when they tell her not to, she'll run Anders out of town as a dangerous abomination and then cheerfully shrug off seeing him socializing in the most populous tavern in the city, she'll swear to protect her sister and then watch templars march her to the Gallows without even drawing her blade, it's just what she does. Having her take charge and accomplish something in a DLC would be terribly retconny of her established personality.

Modifié par Quething, 14 janvier 2012 - 06:17 .

[TEWR]

Quething wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

He's a party to the plan, as I recall he can suggest the treaties himself.

He can't, unless one takes the line of "Surely there are other people we can rely on" to mean the treaties. And indeed, it leads to Alistair commenting on them.

Which is fair I guess, but it isn't necessarily a pure statement of it being his original plan.

Your Warden needs more Cunning.

Wait what? There's an actual option for the Warden to make it his own plan? How much cunning is needed?

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Quething wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

He's a party to the plan, as I recall he can suggest the treaties himself.

He can't, unless one takes the line of "Surely there are other people we can rely on" to mean the treaties. And indeed, it leads to Alistair commenting on them.

Which is fair I guess, but it isn't necessarily a pure statement of it being his original plan.

Your Warden needs more Cunning.

Wait what? There's an actual option for the Warden to make it his own plan? How much cunning is needed?

Not sure but just max it. You can get very unique lines with Flemeth too if you have high cunning and 'speech' skill (whatever it was called). Actually since I saw so many people complaining how easy DA:O was I don't know why not everyone maxed out cunning and speech for the extra lines of dialogue.

[Sir JK]

Regardless what you may think of her Petrice is a sister of the Chantry and Varnell is a templar in act one. And the Chantry does protect it's own. Yes, she was in the lowtown looking for thugs. Do you really believe you were the only one who knew that?
Furthermore, Petrice had on her person a sizeable reward. Money no doubt donated from people agreeing with her ideas. Petrice is many things, but a lowly sister scraping together that kind of money from her personal savings? Now there's an unlikely scenario.

And there's more. Isn't it rather convenient that Petrice has access to an empty building containing an escape route out of the city? Leading to a location where an entire Arvaarad was slaughtered? Not only is this a very valuable building, for the black market if noone else, but this also suggest that someone had the power to dispatch a military unit efficient enough to leave virtually no traces.

Face it. Shepherding wolves was planned by someone with a lot of resources. This someone is not Petrice. Killing her would attract attention, the bad kind.

So the reason we cannot kill Petrice, is the same reason we cannot attack Cullen when he gets Bethany. The same reason we cannot attack the viscount, Elthina, Meredith or the Arishok before it's time.
Because the game protects you from commiting suicide.

[PrinceLionheart]

Sir JK wrote...

So the reason we cannot kill Petrice, is the same reason we cannot attack Cullen when he gets Bethany. The same reason we cannot attack the viscount, Elthina, Meredith or the Arishok before it's time.
Because the game protects you from commiting suicide.

On that note, i really don't understand the complaint about Bethany getting sent to the circle, more specifically that Hawke "should've fought." Even throwing out the "Would He/She would've won" argument (since it's irrelevant), what next exactly? Hypothetically, if Hawke were to kill Cullen in that situation, wouldn't that officially make him (and by extension both Bethany and Leandra) wanted criminals by both the Templars and the City Guard?

[Wulfram]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

On that note, i really don't understand the complaint about Bethany getting sent to the circle, more specifically that Hawke "should've fought." Even throwing out the "Would He/She would've won" argument (since it's irrelevant), what next exactly? Hypothetically, if Hawke were to kill Cullen in that situation, wouldn't that officially make him (and by extension both Bethany and Leandra) wanted criminals by both the Templars and the City Guard?

They've been wanted criminals by the Templars their whole lives.

Obviously they'd have to leave Kirkwall.  But I'm not seeing how that's a bad thing.

[TEWR]

Sir JK wrote...

Regardless what you may think of her Petrice is a sister of the Chantry and Varnell is a templar in act one. And the Chantry does protect it's own. Yes, she was in the lowtown looking for thugs. Do you really believe you were the only one who knew that?

No one in the Chantry or the Templars knew what she was doing, as she didn't want the Chantry to know. She also didn't want anything to link her to what she was doing, as she was cleaning

In fact, the only thing that was know was that a Chantry priest was seeking someone's services and offering money. Nowhere was it stated that it was known in Kirkwall that Petrice was this priest.

Furthermore, Petrice had on her person a sizeable reward. Money no doubt donated from people agreeing with her ideas. Petrice is many things, but a lowly sister scraping together that kind of money from her personal savings? Now there's an unlikely scenario.

Speculation as we don't see any other Chantry priestesses that support what she's doing, and it's far more likely she used Chantry donations to pay for Hawke's services.

And there's more. Isn't it rather convenient that Petrice has access to an empty building containing an escape route out of the city? Leading to a location where an entire Arvaarad was slaughtered? Not only is this a very valuable building, for the black market if noone else, but this also suggest that someone had the power to dispatch a military unit efficient enough to leave virtually no traces.

 
Originally what happened was that Saarebas' original Kaaratam were slaughtered when facing Tal-Vashoth, and someone moved the bodies to lead to that area.

Probably Varnell and the Faithful on Petrice's orders since I doubt Petrice would even be able to move the bodies.

Face it. Shepherding wolves was planned by someone with a lot of resources. This someone is not Petrice. Killing her would attract attention, the bad kind.

Petrice was the ringleader of the whole thing, spearheading the effort against the Qunari.

Plus, she says "Make no mistake. I won't seek assistance outside of the Faithful again." The Faithful are the citizens of Kirkwall that sided with Petrice. There's no evidence that any Chantry priests were also siding with Petrice. IIRC, she says she was working alone. All of what happened with the Qunari were either her machinations or Ser Varnell's.
 
She doesn't even seem to actually look for like-minded Chantry priests until Act 3, assuming she lives.

So the reason we cannot kill Petrice, is the same reason we cannot attack Cullen when he gets Bethany. The same reason we cannot attack the viscount, Elthina, Meredith or the Arishok before it's time.
Because the game protects you from commiting suicide.

In other words, Petrice is privy to her plot-protected nature.

The player needs to be given a good reason in-game why she cannot be killed. What you have said is never confirmed in game. You think she has like-minded priests aiding her, though she is the only priest ever seen acting against the Qunari and even when her cover is blown doesn't say she was working with anyone else.

As I said on page 1, what should've happened is that when Hawke returns Petrice would say that agents of the Faithful were scattered throughout Lowtown and that when Hawke left to help Saarebas some of them came in to tell her that Hawke/Bethany are mages (using my idea for both siblings having lived instead of one dying).

Then she would say that were Hawke to kill Petrice, the Faithful would report their magehood to the Templars and as a result they would be hunted by Kirkwall's Templars. Not only would they have to face the charges of being an apostate but also the charges of killing a Chantry official and a Templar.

And the player would be given a good in-game reason why killing her isn't an option.

[whykikyouwhy]

Wulfram wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

On that note, i really don't understand the complaint about Bethany getting sent to the circle, more specifically that Hawke "should've fought." Even throwing out the "Would He/She would've won" argument (since it's irrelevant), what next exactly? Hypothetically, if Hawke were to kill Cullen in that situation, wouldn't that officially make him (and by extension both Bethany and Leandra) wanted criminals by both the Templars and the City Guard?

They've been wanted criminals by the Templars their whole lives.

Obviously they'd have to leave Kirkwall.  But I'm not seeing how that's a bad thing.

The bad thing would be Leandra - having to drag her back out on the run and on the road again. Which is something that gets mentioned before the family enters Kirkwall (it might only come up with a diplomatic or snarky Hawke though, I'm not sure). Kirkwall represented a chance to hopefully stop running.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 15 janvier 2012 - 10:54 .

[TEWR]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

So the reason we cannot kill Petrice, is the same reason we cannot attack Cullen when he gets Bethany. The same reason we cannot attack the viscount, Elthina, Meredith or the Arishok before it's time.
Because the game protects you from commiting suicide.

On that note, i really don't understand the complaint about Bethany getting sent to the circle, more specifically that Hawke "should've fought." Even throwing out the "Would He/She would've won" argument (since it's irrelevant), what next exactly? Hypothetically, if Hawke were to kill Cullen in that situation, wouldn't that officially make him (and by extension both Bethany and Leandra) wanted criminals by both the Templars and the City Guard?

I felt that only having two Templars there contradicted the description and depiction of Kirkwall's Templars' stance on magic.

I expected to see fifty Templars led by Meredith, Thrask, Cullen, and Orsino there to keep in line with how strict Meredith's measures had become.

Why would Orsino be there? To help convince Hawke and Bethany that she should go to the Circle and he'll help keep her safe.

This would provide the player with a solid reason seen on screen why they can't fight the Templars. There'd be an army on their doorsteps.

I'm fine with being unable to keep Bethany out of the Circle. But I do want it to be both believable and consistent with the game why I can't do it.

EDIT: and if Hawke tries to attack the Templars -- for whatever reason -- Bethany could use magic to fling Hawke across the area and keep him pinned down, because she wants to go and doesn't want Hawke to get seriously injured trying to protect her.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 janvier 2012 - 10:51 .

[Wulfram]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The bad thing would be Leandra - having to drag her back out on the run and on the road again. Which is something that gets mentioned before the family enters KIrkwall (it might only come up with a diplomatic or snarky Hawke though, I'm not sure). Kirkwall represented a chance to hopefully stop running.

Well, lets go stop running somewhere less crappy

[PrinceLionheart]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

On that note, i really don't understand the complaint about Bethany getting sent to the circle, more specifically that Hawke "should've fought." Even throwing out the "Would He/She would've won" argument (since it's irrelevant), what next exactly? Hypothetically, if Hawke were to kill Cullen in that situation, wouldn't that officially make him (and by extension both Bethany and Leandra) wanted criminals by both the Templars and the City Guard?

They've been wanted criminals by the Templars their whole lives.

Obviously they'd have to leave Kirkwall.  But I'm not seeing how that's a bad thing.

The bad thing would be Leandra - having to drag her back out on the run and on the road again. Which is something that gets mentioned before the family enters KIrkwall (it might only come up with a diplomatic or snarky Hawke though, I'm not sure). Kirkwall represented a chance to hopefully stop running.

And I'd presume that after actually killing a Templar would make it harder for the Hawke's to actually have a stationary life. It'd be just like what Anders faced in Awakening; after being accused of killing Templars he was going to have an immediate death sentence had the Warden Commander not intervened on his behalf.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This would provide the player with a solid reason seen on
screen why they can't fight the Templars. There'd be an army on their
doorsteps.

I'm fine with being unable to keep Bethany out of the
Circle. But I do want it to be both believable and consistent with the
game why I can't do it.

The army might have been necessary if Bethany was accused of being a blood mage, but she was just an apostate going peacefully at that. At that point there would be no need for Templars to use force, or for even the Elder Enchanter to be there. I'd argue that Hawke going ahead and trying to fight for Bethany's freedom right then and there would've put Leandra at risk of getting caught in the crossfire.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 15 janvier 2012 - 10:51 .

[TEWR]

The army might have been necessary if Bethany was accused of being a blood mage, but she was just an apostate going peacefully at that. At that point there would be no need for Templars to use force, or for even the Elder Enchanter to be there. I'd argue that Hawke going ahead and trying to fight for Bethany's freedom right then and there would've put Leandra at risk of getting caught in the crossfire.

It doesn't matter. Kirkwall's Templars are highly predicated on taking their measures to watch over the mages to extremes and this would keep in line with the harsh nature of the Templars, where barely any of them are of good solid moral character and the majority are like Alrik, Kerras, Mettin, the woman that hunted Feynriel, the woman that fights Hawke in Hightown, etc.

Thrask himself states that Meredith's measures have become far less mage-friendly since she became Knight-Commander. This keeps in line with that idea as she would clearly be overreacting to one mage being found, even if it could be seen as her trying to protect Kirkwall.

It doesn't matter whether she was accused of being a blood mage. That's irrelevant to the nature of Kirkwall's Templars towards regular mages. The majority of Kirkwall's Templars are extremely monstrous towards regular citizens, and act like a beast from hell towards mages.

EDIT: as for my edit above where I suggested what would happen were Hawke to attack the Templars, that's only if that specific thing was present. Personally I wouldn't want it, but if it was there it would just be Hawke charging and getting hit by a spell of Bethany's before he could do anything.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 janvier 2012 - 11:01 .