95 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

Ethereal writer:

You're really trusting Petrice´s word that the Chantry doesn't know she's there? Officially yes, since Elthina wouldn't possibly support it. But that she has no support? Because she says so? I mean Petrice is many things.... but trustworthy and honest? I mean... she had just earlier that very evening lied you in the face about certain things... what makes you assume she wasn't using chantry resources inofficially. She does have a templar bodyguard after all.

As for her supporters... Viscount Dumar explicitely says so in act 2. That she's just a dummy and figurehead. That removing her would lead to nothing since she's not the one behind it all.

Sure, Hawke might not have had that spelled out to him/her in act 1. But act 1 is about getting money to make sure that you can hide.
Even in the best of circumstances... a murder investiation would be detrimental to that.

As you say, yes. Petrice is protected by plot armour. As is Hawke. You cannot do stupid things... like attacking a woman who quite publicly looks like she belongs to the true power in the city. Was it specifically pointed out she was being protected? No.
Did it need to be? I'd say common sense should point out why attacking people belonging to powerful organisations you don't like is a bad idea... especially since you live in the area...

Besides... why do you assume Varnell was the only templar there? Sure. We didn't see anyone else... but she didn't let us see Varnell immediatly either...
Is Petrice the kind of person that strikes you as someone who lets you see all her cards?

Modifié par Sir JK, 15 janvier 2012 - 11:14 .

[TEWR]

Sir JK wrote...

Ethereal writer:

You're really trusting Petrice´s word that the Chantry doesn't know she's there? Officially yes, since Elthina wouldn't possibly support it. But that she has no support? Because she says so? I mean Petrice is many things.... but trustworthy and honest? I mean... she had just earlier that very evening lied you in the face about certain things... what makes you assume she wasn't using chantry resources inofficially. She does have a templar bodyguard after all.

I'm trusting the game's lack of presenting support from other priests.

While the other Chantry priests disliked the presence of the Qunari, this doesn't mean that they were supporting Petrice. Pretty much everyone resented the Qunari presence in Kirkwall, but they weren't all a part of the Faithful.

Her Templar bodyguard also happens to be a fanatic with an extreme hatred of the Qunari. That's not using Chantry resources. That's a like-minded individual within the Templars siding with Petrice.

She makes it very clear that she can't use Chantry resources to further her personal goals at that time, because it would inevitably be drawn back to her. This includes the Templars at that time. Varnell in Shepherding Wolves was the only Templar working with her.

She doesn't want it linked back to her in any way. Hence why she went looking for a Lowtown thug.

As for her supporters... Viscount Dumar explicitely says so in act 2. That she's just a dummy and figurehead. That removing her would lead to nothing since she's not the one behind it all.

I don't think he ever said that. Is there a link you can provide for it?

Sure, Hawke might not have had that spelled out to him/her in act 1. But act 1 is about getting money to make sure that you can hide.
Even in the best of circumstances... a murder investiation would be detrimental to that.

I'm not saying Hawke should've killed her. I'm saying the game should've provided a reason why a player can't kill her. Why they shouldn't be fixated on why the game didn't allow for this.

I don't want her to be killed. Of course she's important to the plot. But to have the game not give a valid reason is not good game design.

Petrice spills all the beans to Hawke and as a result there isn't any reason why she can't be killed. Hawke has clout with the City Guard and the hovel she was working in links to Darktown, which IIRC was stated somewhere to be a hiding place for bodies.

Add into that the fact that thugs tried to kill her earlier and I don't think that Hawke would be the suspect.

I want to make it very clear that I do not advocate killing Petrice. I advocate the game giving a good in-game reason why killing her is not an option one should take.

Besides... why do you assume Varnell was the only templar there? Sure. We didn't see anyone else... but she didn't let us see Varnell immediatly either...
Is Petrice the kind of person that strikes you as someone who lets you see all her cards?

Varnell was the only Templar working with her in Act I. That's what I said I believe.

And probably because she can't have Chantry resources linked to her and Varnell is the only one in the hovel.

The more Chantry resources she uses -- officially or unofficially, secretly or blatantly -- the greater the chance of it somehow being linked back to her.

"I saw Petrice meeting with some Templars earlier."

"I saw Petrice signing Chantry documents earlier."

"I saw Petrice sneaking out of the Chantry at night"



EDIT: Think of it this way. DAO provides a good in game reason why a person can be recruited into the Wardens -- The Right of Conscription.

Imagine if DAO didn't tell you about this. So then you're recruited into the Wardens against your will with no reason to back up why. You didn't want to join the Wardens, but you were forced to.

Now you might say "Well it's everyone's responsibility to fight the Blight in whatever form." But this doesn't actually apply to everyone and you didn't want to join the Wardens and now you're a part of them. The game ignored giving a believable reason why you must be a Warden in favor of just saying "Be a Warden".

It's the same thing here. A player may want to kill Petrice, but the game ignores giving a believable reason why you can't kill her in favor of just saying "She lives. Deal with it and suck it up, princess."*

*I wanted to use DG's amazing quote to further cement my point*

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 janvier 2012 - 12:01 .

[GavrielKay]

Why is Petrice even there when Hawke comes back from Shepherding Wolves? She expects Hawke to die. And Petrice should know that if Hawke survives, s/he's not going to be thrilled with being set up by Petrice. We should have found a note in the hovel with our payment and a warning not to tell anyone about what happened.

DA2 had too many places where there is not enough story to back up the plot demands. Many of them have been mentioned in this thread. It isn't that gamers don't understand there has to be a framework to move the game along, but there's supposed to be some pretty decoration on the framework so we're not seeing all the i-beams and stuff.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 16 janvier 2012 - 01:36 .

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

Why is Petrice even there when Hawke comes back from Shepherding Wolves? She expects Hawke to die. And Petrice should know that if Hawke survives, s/he's not going to be thrilled with being set up by Petrice. We should have found a note in the hovel with our payment and a warning not to tell anyone about what happened.

She was cleaning up and trying to make sure that there was nothing left in the hovel that could incriminate her. Those were her words to Varnell when Hawke re-enters the hovel.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 janvier 2012 - 01:37 .

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Why is Petrice even there when Hawke comes back from Shepherding Wolves? She expects Hawke to die. And Petrice should know that if Hawke survives, s/he's not going to be thrilled with being set up by Petrice. We should have found a note in the hovel with our payment and a warning not to tell anyone about what happened.

She was cleaning up and trying to make sure that there was nothing left in the hovel that could incriminate her. Those were her words to Varnell when Hawke re-enters the hovel.

With all the time Hawke spent doing the quest?  There wasn't anything in the hovel to begin with, it coudlnt' have taken that long to clean up.

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Why is Petrice even there when Hawke comes back from Shepherding Wolves? She expects Hawke to die. And Petrice should know that if Hawke survives, s/he's not going to be thrilled with being set up by Petrice. We should have found a note in the hovel with our payment and a warning not to tell anyone about what happened.

She was cleaning up and trying to make sure that there was nothing left in the hovel that could incriminate her. Those were her words to Varnell when Hawke re-enters the hovel.

With all the time Hawke spent doing the quest?  There wasn't anything in the hovel to begin with, it coudlnt' have taken that long to clean up.

Remember how those pesky details like books in the Circle Tower and everything got in the way of our gaming experience and were removed (a David Silverman moment IIRC)?

I blame that reasoning for it. The hovel should've had some of Petrice's belongings there so that it actually looks like it's an interim base of hers.

Stuff like maps, Qunari schedules, notes of hers, etc.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 janvier 2012 - 01:44 .

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Remember how those pesky details like books in the Circle Tower and everything got in the way of our gaming experience and were removed (a David Silverman moment IIRC)?

I blame that reasoning for it. The hovel should've had some of Petrice's belongings there so that it actually looks like it's an interim base of hers.

I'm just saying, if Petrice was trying to be some kind of criminal mastermind that has set Hawke up to die and is untouchable herself due to connections...  well, that fails almost as badly as what we actually observe in the game.

It's not like she had to wipe down fingerprint.  What on earth would she have brought to a hovel in Lowtown that was going to be used to contact a Lowtown thug and stir up troubel with the Qunari.  It just doesn't make sense.

There would have been nothing to clean up, and Petrice would want to be as far away from the place as possible before Hawke returned.

It's like watching a movie where you say to yourself every few minutes:  "no one would really do that," before the bad guy catches them.

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...


I'm just saying, if Petrice was trying to be some kind of criminal mastermind that has set Hawke up to die and is untouchable herself due to connections...  well, that fails almost as badly as what we actually observe in the game.

It's not like she had to wipe down fingerprint.  What on earth would she have brought to a hovel in Lowtown that was going to be used to contact a Lowtown thug and stir up troubel with the Qunari.  It just doesn't make sense.

There would have been nothing to clean up, and Petrice would want to be as far away from the place as possible before Hawke returned.

It's like watching a movie where you say to yourself every few minutes:  "no one would really do that," before the bad guy catches them.

I imagine that she deliberately chose that hovel because of its convenient escape route into the Vimmark Mountains, and perhaps she had used it as a sort of cover base. Perhaps she was using it for meetings with the Faithful under the guise of the "helpful Sister from the Chantry", and the Chantry fell for that hook, line, and sinker.

We also have to take into account the amount of time it takes for that hovel to link to the Vimmark Mountain Pass, which is a pretty expansive range. I imagine it's not that far of a walk using that shortcut, which means that her time wouldn't have been much. She only would've had... maybe an hour or two to clean up everything in her cover base.

And if she had in fact suckered the Chantry into believing she was helping Lowtown, she would've needed a considerable amount of stuff there to make it believable.

Which doesn't necessarily mean she used Chantry resources for it.

At any rate it doesn't matter because as you said this kind of stuff isn't properly conveyed through the storyline.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 janvier 2012 - 02:04 .

[MagmaSaiyan]

i do agree on what you are trying to prove, The Ethereal, but i would rather have no choice than a failed attempt and get my hopes up, i realize that this isnt Origins, which has no effect on this discussion, but there are parts in which Origins dont give an option to take care of things, why? because its how its made and the game also doesnt give an absolute reason not to do it. suppose if they had way more time to work on it they might of had that option or reason not to, i even swore she said something regarding why you couldnt kill her.

[TEWR]

MagmaSaiyan wrote...

i do agree on what you are trying to prove, The Ethereal, but i would rather have no choice than a failed attempt and get my hopes up, i realize that this isnt Origins, which has no effect on this discussion, but there are parts in which Origins dont give an option to take care of things, why? because its how its made and the game also doesnt give an absolute reason not to do it. suppose if they had way more time to work on it they might of had that option or reason not to, i even swore she said something regarding why you couldnt kill her.

I'm not arguing that the player should've attempted to kill Petrice only to fail. What I'm arguing is that the player should threaten to kill Petrice -- Hawke's words I believe were "I should kill you for what you did" -- to which she counters why that isn't an option using what I've stated in this thread.

Two different ideas. One has Hawke actually try to kill her and fail, while the other just has him threaten to kill her for what she did and be told that he can't act on them.

And these types of things would be required for the game. While you might not want to have the option to threaten Petrice, other players undoubtedly would want it as they would roleplay their character to feel rightfully angry. The narrative however would provide a good reason why killing her isn't an option.

There will always be restrictions in what you can do in the game. I would rather have the option to properly roleplay my character's feelings regarding certain matters and be told in a believable and plot-strengthening method why they can't act on them, then to have the option not be there at all.

Because the lack of that option would restrict how you could play the game more then being able to threaten her and being told why you can't kill her would.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 janvier 2012 - 03:14 .

[Agamo45]

Hawke just doesn't give a ****, he's lazy and apatheitc and only reacts, despite the fact that he is supposed to be the Champion.

[GavrielKay]

Agamo45 wrote...

Hawke just doesn't give a ****, he's lazy and apatheitc and only reacts, despite the fact that he is supposed to be the Champion.

Sometimes Hawke doesn't even react to what's going on.

[Quething]

GavrielKay wrote...

I'm just saying, if Petrice was trying to be some kind of criminal mastermind that has set Hawke up to die and is untouchable herself due to connections...  well, that fails almost as badly as what we actually observe in the game.

It's not like she had to wipe down fingerprint.  What on earth would she have brought to a hovel in Lowtown that was going to be used to contact a Lowtown thug and stir up troubel with the Qunari.  It just doesn't make sense.

There would have been nothing to clean up, and Petrice would want to be as far away from the place as possible before Hawke returned.

Which is why the obvious solution is just to have the post-quest confrontation with Petrice in the damn Chantry at daytime. You wouldn't have anyone wondering why Hawke doesn't just shank her then any more than anyone wonders why you can't shank her in the Chantry during Act II.

[GavrielKay]

Quething wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

I'm just saying, if Petrice was trying to be some kind of criminal mastermind that has set Hawke up to die and is untouchable herself due to connections...  well, that fails almost as badly as what we actually observe in the game.

It's not like she had to wipe down fingerprint.  What on earth would she have brought to a hovel in Lowtown that was going to be used to contact a Lowtown thug and stir up troubel with the Qunari.  It just doesn't make sense.

There would have been nothing to clean up, and Petrice would want to be as far away from the place as possible before Hawke returned.

Which is why the obvious solution is just to have the post-quest confrontation with Petrice in the damn Chantry at daytime. You wouldn't have anyone wondering why Hawke doesn't just shank her then any more than anyone wonders why you can't shank her in the Chantry during Act II.

I'd be fine with that.

You should have to hunt her down and confront her, given she expects you've died.

Or, let Hawke kill her only to discover she really is part of a group and the other members have carried on with their plans.

[Dokarqt]

What frustrated me the most was not being able to kill Zevran at the end of "murder of crows". I actually thought I would be able to turn him in to the antivans or atleast kill him after killing the antivans. It really annoyed me:(

[TEWR]

pretty sure you can in fact turn him in to the Antivans. And then they try to kill you because you're a loose end

[Dokarqt]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

pretty sure you can in fact turn him in to the Antivans. And then they try to kill you because you're a loose end

No you try turning him in and the antivans decide to kill you after which Zevran says goodbye and leaves (and you still can't kill him).

[GavrielKay]

Dokarqt wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

pretty sure you can in fact turn him in to the Antivans. And then they try to kill you because you're a loose end

No you try turning him in and the antivans decide to kill you after which Zevran says goodbye and leaves (and you still can't kill him).

Perhaps it's better that they don't let you think you've killed him.  That way, when he shows up again, they don't have to answer another round of "how did so-and-so return from being beheaded?"

[TEWR]

Dokarqt wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

pretty sure you can in fact turn him in to the Antivans. And then they try to kill you because you're a loose end

No you try turning him in and the antivans decide to kill you after which Zevran says goodbye and leaves (and you still can't kill him).

I know. You originally said you wished you could've turned him into the Antivans, to which I said that you actually could.

And I'm glad he can't be killed in DAII. He's obviously going to be important for the downfall of the Crows.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 janvier 2012 - 02:21 .

[HiroVoid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

pretty sure you can in fact turn him in to the Antivans. And then they try to kill you because you're a loose end

No you try turning him in and the antivans decide to kill you after which Zevran says goodbye and leaves (and you still can't kill him).

I know. You originally said you wished you could've turned him into the Antivans, to which I said that you actually could.

And I'm glad he can't be killed in DAII. He's obviously going to be important for the downfall of the Crows.

But what about those that killed him in DAO?

[TEWR]

HiroVoid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dokarqt wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

pretty sure you can in fact turn him in to the Antivans. And then they try to kill you because you're a loose end

No you try turning him in and the antivans decide to kill you after which Zevran says goodbye and leaves (and you still can't kill him).

I know. You originally said you wished you could've turned him into the Antivans, to which I said that you actually could.

And I'm glad he can't be killed in DAII. He's obviously going to be important for the downfall of the Crows.

But what about those that killed him in DAO?

Don't know. This is why I'm so vehemently opposed to Bioware resorting to killing off the companions in the DA series as a method to get rid of them. They're obviously going to have importance in the future. There are other methods that they can use to remove the companions. Betrayal, anger, deceit, etc.

From Zevran's codex in DAII, he's been operating on his own and has managed to gain allies. He's the mastermind of the downfall, so how Bioware is going to deal with this is something I don't know.

He's got two Guildmasters in his pocket, but how's that going to happen if he's dead? He's apparently bribed them into supporting him, which means that if he's dead the Crows aren't facing a revolt.

But this seems to be something that Bioware wants to happen. At least that's how I see it. So I see their notion of killing off the companions as something that will paint themselves into a corner.