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End of The Line for DA2 DLC?


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#326
Melca36

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MageTarot wrote...

My feeling is that there should be one more DLC released, this time with a warrior-based storyline. I say this because "Legacy" had a Tevinter Mage (Corypheus) as its focus and "Mark of the Assassin" had a rogue (Taris). Perhaps a journey to Ferelden to help Alistair (either as king or as a Grey Warden) stop a usurper from taking the throne?


I definitely agree with one more which give closure to Hawke's story and provide hints for the next game.

The know it all marketing experts posting here will tell you otherwise. :lol:

#327
Uhh.. Jonah

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DLC was the best thing about DA2. I want MOAR.

#328
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*

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Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

DLC was the best thing about DA2. I want MOAR.


Tell that to Bioware cause they like the silent treatment. I would assume they already have an idea for where the DA2 DLC's will guide the story and probably have them either finished or in the testing stages (and we all know testing takes time).<_<

Modifié par shadowhawk233, 25 janvier 2012 - 03:01 .


#329
Game_Fan_85

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Bryzon wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

There is also the third option: DAO DLC sucked and Bioware has decided to take its time to make sure the DA2 DLC is of high quality, especially after the criticism of the base game.


DAO DLC did not suck. In fact, I think it is better than any of the DLC's for DA2 and is a part of why I cherish DA:O so much. For as long as it has taken them to put out DLC for DA2, it should have been much better than it has been.


You have played Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, right? o_O  They were bloody fantastic!  I have not bought DLC for anything other than ME, DA:O/2 and Fable II&III and DA2's was by FAR the best DLC I have played. 

Other than Awakening and the DLC that was split from the main game (so that EA had one of their pathetic 'online pass' things to add to the game) that should have been IN the main game without having to download it, it did kind of suck.  Witch Hunt has to be one of the most disappointing, over hyped DLC's ever.  I thought it was almost 100% pointless as it did not "resolve" a damn thing about Morrigan's story with the Warden. 

As much as I could not stand God-girl Leliana, I did enjoy her DLC the most.  I would have given 5 times the money to have an Alistair DLC instead though.  Reading that it was suggested and rejected made me very sad :(

#330
Gibb_Shepard

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BW made you buy a damn companion on release for godsake. Condemning DAO DLC because it was "Split" from the main game to try and boost your argument on why you think DA2 DLC is better is utterly pointless.

DA2 had the most "Split" content from a video game i have ever seen in my entire life.

#331
Game_Fan_85

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

BW made you buy a damn companion on release for godsake. Condemning DAO DLC because it was "Split" from the main game to try and boost your argument on why you think DA2 DLC is better is utterly pointless.

DA2 had the most "Split" content from a video game i have ever seen in my entire life.


How did I condemn it for "that" reason?  I was saying that the download code bullcrap should have been (and was obviously created to be) part of the game without having to become "dlc" to satisfy EA's obsession to include "online pass" rubbish with every game.  That was the best DLC for DAO IMHO.  I also said I don't count Awakening as DLC because it was a proper expansion pack.  So excluding the online pass "dlc" and Awakening, I thought the rest was disappointing.  I was so looking forward to Witch Hunt and when I played it was hugely disappointed.  

On the other hand, Legacy and Mark of the Assassin are the 2 biggest, most fun and most value for money DLC I have ever played.  They were even better than the rather awesome ME2 DLC for me.  I put over 4 hours into both of them, the longest DAO DLC for me was about 1hr-1 1/2 hrs at most.  I think you should try reading people's comments properly before jumping down their throat.

#332
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*

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It all comes down to business I'm afraid. DA is dark right now because Bioware/EA have so much invested in SWTOR and ME3. SWTOR sold very well at first but is tailing off a lot faster than expected it seems. The thought process was the game would sell huge out of the gate, getting back most of the enormous investment (Over 200 mill per numerous reports it seems) that way, and they could then retain a sizable enough portion of players to pay monthly fees to make a steady profit.

Well that isn't really happening. The game is certainly popular and doing well, but not the runaway hit sales wise they hoped for either, and it certainly won't kill off that Warcraft thing like many thought. That means more have to pay the monthly fee, and for much longer, to probably make their money back. Now, it's Star Wars, so that will happen, but it looks like it will take a much longer period of time for that to happen than BW/EA expected. Which then doubles down on the pressure for ME3, and some of the "upgrades" there aren't really garnering much love so far. Some grumbles remind me of DA2, but we won't go there.....Which leads to DA2. DA2 did not sell to expectations. Period. It's not even debatable.

The DLC's have reportedly done much worse. Does that mean we're done? No. But that probably does mean, with all these other very significant monetary aspects at play, that DA2 is probably just about done, save prepping for any DA3, barring catastrophe of course. As a business, they just have too much invested in other areas right now, with far too much risk involved to be delving back into something that did not really do all that well to begin with.

Modifié par shadowhawk233, 26 janvier 2012 - 01:00 .


#333
Ponendus

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shadowhawk233 wrote...

I guess it's true that Bioware has gone to the dogs...


I think you are just trolling now.

#334
Guest_ShadowHawk28_*

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Ponendus wrote...

I think you are just trolling now.


And i think you are being offensive and rude<_<

Modifié par shadowhawk233, 26 janvier 2012 - 02:31 .


#335
Fast Jimmy

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shadowhawk233 wrote...

It all comes down to business I'm afraid. DA is dark right now because Bioware/EA have so much invested in SWTOR and ME3. SWTOR sold very well at first but is tailing off a lot faster than expected it seems. The thought process was the game would sell huge out of the gate, getting back most of the enormous investment (Over 200 mill per numerous reports it seems) that way, and they could then retain a sizable enough portion of players to pay monthly fees to make a steady profit.

Well that isn't really happening. The game is certainly popular and doing well, but not the runaway hit sales wise they hoped for either, and it certainly won't kill off that Warcraft thing like many thought. That means more have to pay the monthly fee, and for much longer, to probably make their money back. Now, it's Star Wars, so that will happen, but it looks like it will take a much longer period of time for that to happen than BW/EA expected. Which then doubles down on the pressure for ME3, and some of the "upgrades" there aren't really garnering much love so far. Some grumbles remind me of DA2, but we won't go there.....Which leads to DA2. DA2 did not sell to expectations. Period. It's not even debatable.

The DLC's have reportedly done much worse. Does that mean we're done? No. But that probably does mean, with all these other very significant monetary aspects at play, that DA2 is probably just about done, save prepping for any DA3, barring catastrophe of course. As a business, they just have too much invested in other areas right now, with far too much risk involved to be delving back into something that did not really do all that well to begin with.


I agree with much of this.

Though sales figures and numbers are never exact when they are not made public by the company, the writing on the wall is certainly there for the DA franchise as a whole and TOR.

Nowhere near termination, but less than expected, making it harder to recoup sunk costs. Which means tightening the belt across the board for all products until a game comes out that brings in the expected (or hopefully MORE than expected) amount of revenue. Bioware is really hanigng a lot of the success of their company on Mass Effect 3, so I would assume that is why any and all news about other products are being kept mum.

Either DA2 is going to have no more DLC, or we won't hear a peep about it until after April. Its not worth the small amount of revenue DLC generates to even CONTEMPLATE competing with its own market share to make Mass Effect 3 everything it can be. Its a business move and, frankly, its one of the smarter ones that Bioware has made in a while. While I would like a better wrap up to DA2's unfinished ending, I don't think we'll get a proper finale to Hawke outside of a cameo or references in DA3.

#336
Dubya75

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shadowhawk233 wrote...

It all comes down to business I'm afraid. DA is dark right now because Bioware/EA have so much invested in SWTOR and ME3. SWTOR sold very well at first but is tailing off a lot faster than expected it seems. The thought process was the game would sell huge out of the gate, getting back most of the enormous investment (Over 200 mill per numerous reports it seems) that way, and they could then retain a sizable enough portion of players to pay monthly fees to make a steady profit.

Well that isn't really happening. The game is certainly popular and doing well, but not the runaway hit sales wise they hoped for either, and it certainly won't kill off that Warcraft thing like many thought. That means more have to pay the monthly fee, and for much longer, to probably make their money back. Now, it's Star Wars, so that will happen, but it looks like it will take a much longer period of time for that to happen than BW/EA expected. Which then doubles down on the pressure for ME3, and some of the "upgrades" there aren't really garnering much love so far. Some grumbles remind me of DA2, but we won't go there.....Which leads to DA2. DA2 did not sell to expectations. Period. It's not even debatable.

The DLC's have reportedly done much worse. Does that mean we're done? No. But that probably does mean, with all these other very significant monetary aspects at play, that DA2 is probably just about done, save prepping for any DA3, barring catastrophe of course. As a business, they just have too much invested in other areas right now, with far too much risk involved to be delving back into something that did not really do all that well to begin with.


Makes sense.

#337
Nash Latkje

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Hopefully they haven't given up fixing the save corruption problem with DA2's latest DLC.

#338
savagesparrow

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I imagine they're probably spacing out the DLC so it doesn't compete with any of the other Bioware launches. Because for the most part, like, you have MotA which came out around October, then the TOR open beta happened in November, with the full game launching in December. January gave us DA: Asunder, and in Febuary we get Dawn of the Seeker (at least in Japan) and the ME demo with the full game coming out in March. So my guess is next DA dlc would probably come out/be announced in april/may to continue with the trend of providing us with bioware content every month.

#339
Melca36

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shadowhawk233 wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

I think you are just trolling now.


And i think you are being offensive and rude<_<



And how do you know they done worse Mr Expert?

You sound like the same broken record I read everytime someone doesn't get their way. LOL 

#340
Melca36

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Ponendus wrote...

shadowhawk233 wrote...

I guess it's true that Bioware has gone to the dogs...


I think you are just trolling now.



Oh but didn't you know? He's a marketing expert. :o

Isn't amazing how people think they know it all?

#341
Melca36

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Multiple post. *delete*

Modifié par Melca36, 26 janvier 2012 - 11:07 .


#342
ElitePinecone

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shadowhawk233 wrote...
DA2 did not sell to expectations. Period. It's not even debatable. 


"Not meeting expectations" doesn't mean "didn't make money."

DA2 made a healthy return on investment, it recouped its budget, it made money - however you want to put it. 

It might not have sold nearly as much as Origins, but it also didn't take over five years to develop. Whether this was driven by pre-order sales and goodwill from the first game is certainly possible (even likely), and I'd be the first to argue that it wouldn't happen again for a hypothetical DA3.

We'll probably never know the precise zots involved, but suffice to say Dragon Age 2 was nowhere near a terminal loss for the company. 

With all due respect, I think you're pontificating about a highly complex business situation from the lowly perspective of a customer, with no inside information. 

That's a perilous position to make sweeping and confident claims. 

#343
Dubya75

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ElitePinecone wrote...

shadowhawk233 wrote...
DA2 did not sell to expectations. Period. It's not even debatable. 


"Not meeting expectations" doesn't mean "didn't make money."

DA2 made a healthy return on investment, it recouped its budget, it made money - however you want to put it. 

It might not have sold nearly as much as Origins, but it also didn't take over five years to develop. Whether this was driven by pre-order sales and goodwill from the first game is certainly possible (even likely), and I'd be the first to argue that it wouldn't happen again for a hypothetical DA3.

We'll probably never know the precise zots involved, but suffice to say Dragon Age 2 was nowhere near a terminal loss for the company. 

With all due respect, I think you're pontificating about a highly complex business situation from the lowly perspective of a customer, with no inside information. 

That's a perilous position to make sweeping and confident claims. 


Good to know that you DO have that inside information then...:whistle:

#344
Fast Jimmy

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ElitePinecone wrote...

DA2 made a healthy return on investment, it recouped its budget, it made money - however you want to put it. 


Who is making perilous and sweeping claims now? 

A "healthy return on investment" is an incredibly subjective term. Given that Bioware only has three real products (TOR, ME and DA), just recouping the money you sunk in isn't good enough. Not even NEAR good enough. You have to make enough money to get the next project going, you have to make enough to fund the work neccessary to close the current project (patches, DLC, etc.) AND you have to have enough left over to show the stock holders and say "Hey, we are making money."

If Bioware was a drug company, that had hundreds of products out there, a few drugs that just broke even or even lost money would be acceptable, as there is invariably going to be a blockbuster that makes a ton and pays for fifteen other "duds." But its not. Its got three bullets in the chamber. And if they suspect one of them is a blank, it involves SERIOUS discussion about what needs to happen to make sure the gun fires.

DAO sold much more than expected, bringing in more than enough revenue to covers its five year development cycle. DA2 sold considerably less, but still a respectable amount. However, its consumer base shrunk significantly. DA3 now has the possible risk of shrinking the fanbase even further. While I don't think Bioware will make the same mistakes as in DA2, when you are doing financial projections, you are to look at the best case scenario, the most likely scenario and the worst possible outcome, give probability rankings to all three, factor them together and that is the weighted potential return on your investment.

If DA2 broke even and made them a, let's say, 10% profit margin, but sold 50% less copies than the original, that downward trend of lost consumers would have to be factored into the risk of DA3.

Here's an example of how DA3's weighted risk might look:
Best case - sales exceed that of DAO by 20%, reaching 5 million
Most likely case - sales exceed those of DA2, reaching 3 million
Worst case - sales drop 50% from DA2, reaching 1 million

Let's say that, after the backlash of DA2, some RPG fans swore off the DA franchise for life (which people across the internet and the forums have stated). But DA3 is an AMAZING game, so they won them all back, plus created more buzz and sold more tha a million more copies than DAO. This is 25% likely.

Let's say instead that those same "never again Bioware" fans don't hear amazing things about DA3, but the DA2 fans come back and some DAO fans, or other gamers new to the franchise decide to hop in, selling slightly more than DA2. I'd say this is about 60% likely.

Let's say instead that Bioware fixes certain things about DA2, but STILL manages to tick off the fans of both DA2 AND DAO. They lose half the fans who bought DA2 and only sell 1 million copies. I'd say that is 15% likely.

So... (5 mill X 25%)+(3 mill X60%)+(1 mill X15%)= 3.2 million weighted sales projections.

Not bad. But it is nowhere as rosey as the scenarios projected for DA2, I guarantee you. Losing half of your sales between the first game and the next is an almost unheard of projection, so it probably wasn't even given as the "worst case" scenario in discussions, let alone given any weight. And regardless, that's STILL not showing a projection for DA3 to sell better than DAO. Granted, these are fairly arbitrary numbers I've pulled, but after getting burned on DA2, don't think that the Bioware/EA financial teams aren't factoring in a scenario of the loss of 50% sales again in the DA3 projections. DA2 I'm sure was projected to top 5 or 6 million in sales most likely, 7 or 8 in a perfect scenario. 

So to say "it made its money back, it is in no danger" is pretty naive. I think DA3 will be made, regardless. But if it doesn't blow the door off of sales and FAR outperform DA2 (since it will have likely a 3 year development cycle, closer to DAO's five year) then it may very well be the end of the series.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 janvier 2012 - 01:37 .


#345
ElitePinecone

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Dubya75 wrote...
snip


The ability to search on the internet doesn't constitute inside information. As much as I'd like a way to steal all of Mr Gaider's future story plans, Google will have to suffice for my sekrit knowledge:

http://social.biowar...12538/9#7528823 

Point being: if DA2 tanked, there wouldn't be a future in it. One of the devs said as much when they referenced fans' wailing and gnashing of teeth: if we all stop buying Bioware games out of some misguided sense of entitlement, that won't mean they change their development process. It'll mean they stop getting the money to make games. 

DA2 made money. Probably not as much as some were expecting (and I don't think anybody truly anticipated the reaction from some fans) - but it was by no means a financial failure. 

I was just pointing it out to suggest that doom-mongering, as ever, is probably shrill, hysterical and hyperbolic. 

As far as this relates to DLC: I've never seen even estimates of sales figures. Where is this information coming from? Granted they were never that high in, say, Xbox Live download popularity lists... 

#346
ElitePinecone

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
Granted, these are fairly arbitrary numbers I've pulled, but after getting burned on DA2, don't think that the Bioware/EA financial teams aren't factoring in a scenario of the loss of 50% sales again in the DA3 projections. DA2 I'm sure was projected to top 5 or 6 million in sales most likely, 7 or 8 in a perfect scenario. 


How on earth are you 'sure' of any of this? 

Sorry, but this entire conversation is absurd. You're speculating on... literally no information about DA2's budget, DA3 projections or any semblence of internal discussions. 

If you're going to quantify DA2 sales projections or DA3 investment scenarios, at least link to the vaguest of articles that feature someone from Bioware or EA. Otherwise this is... perilous and sweeping claims. o_o

#347
HiroVoid

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DA2 was a game that disappointed many people. When a game comes out that's not well-recieved, there's a probable chance that the sequel at least won't sell initially as much.

#348
Gnaeus.Silvanus

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HiroVoid wrote...

DA2 was a game that disappointed many people. When a game comes out that's not well-recieved, there's a probable chance that the sequel at least won't sell initially as much.


Haha, the bad rap of Dragon Age 2 doesn't seem to hold ground anymore when you play the game after a long hiatus. Why not do yourself a favor and play with it again. My opinion changed when I gave it another try, hell I'm enjoying it now more than ever.

#349
Fast Jimmy

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ElitePinecone wrote...

How on earth are you 'sure' of any of this? 

Sorry, but this entire conversation is absurd. You're speculating on... literally no information about DA2's budget, DA3 projections or any semblence of internal discussions. 

If you're going to quantify DA2 sales projections or DA3 investment scenarios, at least link to the vaguest of articles that feature someone from Bioware or EA. Otherwise this is... perilous and sweeping claims. o_o


How am I sure about what, exacty? 

The 50% loss in sales between DAO and DA2 (4 mil vs. 2 mil) is fairly well known, here's a clip right here:
http://www.escapistm...gon-Age-2-Sales

As for the other numbers, I said it was an EXAMPLE of what a weighted risk analysis might look like. We have no way of seeing these actual analysis without breaking into Edmonton. HOWEVER, given that there was a 50% drop in sales between DAO and DA2, any financial analyst or number cruncher at Bioware/EA would be negligent to NOT include this possibility for DA3 in their estimates.

And again, my whole point was to demonstrate that "DA2 sold well enough to cover its costs" is a dead-end argument. If you settle on a franchise that is likely to only break even, you run the risk of an iteration of that series doing poorly and NOT covering its expenses. On the other hand, if you have a series that continuosly grows and develops its fanbase over time, iterating a similar type of gameplay experience, but with both mechancial and graphical upgrades, then you can expect sustainable growth and sales.

In the above, the leap between DAO to DA2 is the franchise that makes enough to cover its own costs and provides very little return for a two year investment when you only have three products. An example of consistently delivering the same gameplay and feel with steady improvements would be a franchise like The Elder Scrolls, which has steadily increased its marketshare with every iteration.

This is not a "Skyrim for DA3" point, its a matter of continuity in your series. One series builds upon its previous fanbase, the other sought to go in "another direction" at the risk of alienating original fans.

Point being, a game IP that breaks even is a game IP that offers little in terms of "why are we still making this?" You can have your individual games like Allan Wake do this, because occassionally they break out and sell much more than expected. But to base a franchise off a model like that? Its not a financially feasible concept. Games that don't hit it out of the park and deliver top-shelf experience AND top shelf sales are going further and further by the wayside. The future of gaming, as of the current market trends, is a dozen AAA games come out a year, while a few thousand Flash, freeware, cell phone or cheap XBox Live games come out, with those who are too high tech to be produced and sold for less than a few dollars, but NOT big enough to demand millions of sales, are dead or dying.

If DA3 suffers the same percentage loss of fans that DAO to DA2 saw, it will not be in the AAA category. Which means the franchise is not suited to survive in this environment.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 janvier 2012 - 03:02 .


#350
RinpocheSchnozberry

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So.... appears we'll get a Dragon Age movie reveal tomorrow.


Tie in DLC?  What do you think the chances are?