honestly i dont understand why that generalization is being made so often. yes there are cerberus supporters, and their logic may not make sense to everyone, but cerberus support and the renegade lifestyle do not go hand in hand.
i enjoy playing renegade more than paragon, and i dont see how my character would ever work with TIM under different circumstances. i do support some of the aspects of cerberus, but not because i enjoy playing renegade.
what are everyones thoughts about the corrilation between cerberus supporters and renegades? do you agree with the generalization? if you do support cerberus, is it because you play renegade?
Renegades are NOT all enamored by cerberus/TIM
Débuté par
SarunasAndSoOn
, janv. 10 2012 12:08
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#2
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 12:09
AgitatedLemon
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Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus
But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.
But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.
#3
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 12:12
SarunasAndSoOn
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AgitatedLemon wrote...
Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus
But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.
that is a more exceptable generalization.
#4
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 12:25
PauseforEffect
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Indeed. I know a few renegades who despise TIM as much as I do. Much of what makes a person renegade or paragon is far more complicated than the game can explain when it comes to motivation.
#5
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 12:30
KotorEffect3
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Not all renegades are pro-cerberus it is just that there is a small but rabid cult of cerberus loyalists on the bsn
#6
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 12:33
AgitatedLemon
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SarunasAndSoOn wrote...
AgitatedLemon wrote...
Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus
But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.
that is a more exceptable generalization.
I cannot honestly think of a single pro-Cerberus person who doesn't main a Renegade Shepard.
#7
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Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 12:33
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I'm pretty much "Renegon", though sometimes I feel like playing "Paragade". Over all I have a good chunk of Renegade choices in all of my playthroughs. However, I'm in no way a Cerberus supporter.
I know what you think now if you look at my signature. You'd probably think I'm a hypocrite. I'm not. I think The Illusive Man has the right idea and his motivations are something I agree with. However, his methods are debatable. I don't agree with every single thing Cerberus does and I certainly don't support them in the long run. But if I have to work with them, so be it. If I have to work against them, so be it.
I know what you think now if you look at my signature. You'd probably think I'm a hypocrite. I'm not. I think The Illusive Man has the right idea and his motivations are something I agree with. However, his methods are debatable. I don't agree with every single thing Cerberus does and I certainly don't support them in the long run. But if I have to work with them, so be it. If I have to work against them, so be it.
#8
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 12:44
KotorEffect3
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Luc0s wrote...
I'm pretty much "Renegon", though sometimes I feel like playing "Paragade". Over all I have a good chunk of Renegade choices in all of my playthroughs. However, I'm in no way a Cerberus supporter.
I know what you think now if you look at my signature. You'd probably think I'm a hypocrite. I'm not. I think The Illusive Man has the right idea and his motivations are something I agree with. However, his methods are debatable. I don't agree with every single thing Cerberus does and I certainly don't support them in the long run. But if I have to work with them, so be it. If I have to work against them, so be it.
If cerberus was the way Chambers describes them if you bring it up with her that would be one thing but it is obvious it is not. In ME 2 cerberus tried to put on a good face for Shepard but my Shepards knew better and stuff like Teltin and Overlord only confirmed Cerberus's true nature to Shepard as well as when Tali brought up the events of ascension. It wasn't hard to tell that Cerberus was BSing Shepard.
#9
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:04
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KotorEffect3 wrote...
If cerberus was the way Chambers describes them if you bring it up with her that would be one thing but it is obvious it is not. In ME 2 cerberus tried to put on a good face for Shepard but my Shepards knew better and stuff like Teltin and Overlord only confirmed Cerberus's true nature to Shepard as well as when Tali brought up the events of ascension. It wasn't hard to tell that Cerberus was BSing Shepard.
Like I said, I don't agree with Cerberus' methods, but their ideas are right. Trying to find a way to control the geth is not wrong. In fact, the Alliance was doing exactly the same at Sidon, they simply used other, less extreme methods.
Same with Teltin. The Alliance does exactly the same at the John Grisson Acedamy, but less extreme. And don't forget that Teltin actually went rogue. TIM did not approve of everything they did there. In fact, when TIM found out what Teltin was doing, he shut the project down and instead TIM decided to piggyback on the Alliance's Ascension program.
And the infiltration on the Quarian flotilla, I don't see how that's any worse than some things that Shepard himself did. Just because Cerberus is portrayed as "the bad guys" doesn't make their infiltration any worse than all those times Shepard infiltrated bases and operations. In both cases things are destroyed and lifes are ended in order to get to their goal.
When you look at Cerberus' infiltration at the Quarian flotilla, you see an terrorist act, while I see a rescue mission. After all, Gillian was in fact kidnapped, Paul Grayson simply wanted to rescue her (and so did TIM, but for whole different reasons of course).
Modifié par Luc0s, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:06 .
#10
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:11
DiebytheSword
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AgitatedLemon wrote...
SarunasAndSoOn wrote...
AgitatedLemon wrote...
Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus
But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.
that is a more exceptable generalization.
I cannot honestly think of a single pro-Cerberus person who doesn't main a Renegade Shepard.
I actually can. Lotion Sorronar plays mostly Paragon, and he support Cerberus' efforts and methods in as far as stopping the reapers.
That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.
#11
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:13
AlexXIV
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Cerberus are renegades. That's why. You may not agree with everything they do, but Cerberus is closer to renegades than paragons, easy as that.
#12
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Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:13
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DiebytheSword wrote...
AgitatedLemon wrote...
SarunasAndSoOn wrote...
AgitatedLemon wrote...
Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus
But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.
that is a more exceptable generalization.
I cannot honestly think of a single pro-Cerberus person who doesn't main a Renegade Shepard.
I actually can. Lotion Sorronar plays mostly Paragon, and he support Cerberus' efforts and methods in as far as stopping the reapers.
That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.
Indeed. You can add me to that list too. Though I've been told I'm not actually Paragon, but "Paragade" or "Renegon", since a good chunk of my choices are Renegade choices (though Paragon dominates Renegade in most of my playthroughs, with Paragon filled up to 100% and Renegade about 60%).
Modifié par Luc0s, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:14 .
#13
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:14
didymos1120
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Luc0s wrote...
In fact, the Alliance was doing exactly the same at Sidon, they simply used other, less extreme methods.
Um, no, they weren't. That was Shu Qian's theory about what might be done with Sovereign, and Sovereign was not something he had shared with the Alliance.
#14
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:16
LPPrince
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Cerberus lies to itself.
Kelly, Rupert Gardner, the rest of the Cerb crew- they legitimately think Cerberus isn't all that bad. Doesn't seem like they know much about what Cerberus is doing and what they are trying to achieve.
I feel for them, but for Cerberus as a whole? Screw them. I play a Paragade Shep who's mostly Paragon with Renegade tendencies, but I imagine most Renegades and Renegons STILL wouldn't side with Cerberus.
Kelly, Rupert Gardner, the rest of the Cerb crew- they legitimately think Cerberus isn't all that bad. Doesn't seem like they know much about what Cerberus is doing and what they are trying to achieve.
I feel for them, but for Cerberus as a whole? Screw them. I play a Paragade Shep who's mostly Paragon with Renegade tendencies, but I imagine most Renegades and Renegons STILL wouldn't side with Cerberus.
#15
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:16
AlexXIV
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Lotion is what I would consider selfrighteous paladin. Bit like Meredith without the crazy. He is not a real paragon though. Paragade or Renegon, as you may see it. A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus. Paragades may, Renegons may, Renegades may support Cerberus, but anyone who is a true paragon just doesn't. That's why Cerberus is closer to renegades than to paragons.DiebytheSword wrote...
AgitatedLemon wrote...
SarunasAndSoOn wrote...
AgitatedLemon wrote...
Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus
But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.
that is a more exceptable generalization.
I cannot honestly think of a single pro-Cerberus person who doesn't main a Renegade Shepard.
I actually can. Lotion Sorronar plays mostly Paragon, and he support Cerberus' efforts and methods in as far as stopping the reapers.
That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.
Modifié par AlexXIV, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:17 .
#16
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:17
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didymos1120 wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
In fact, the Alliance was doing exactly the same at Sidon, they simply used other, less extreme methods.
Um, no, they weren't. That was Shu Qian's theory about what might be done with Sovereign, and Sovereign was not something he had shared with the Alliance.
Euhm, did you actually pay attention at all? The project at Sidon was an A.I. project, trying to understand and control A.I's, that would give the Alliance (and the rest of Council space) and upper edge against the geth, maybe even control them. That's the main reason why the Alliance started the project. Sovereign had nothing to do with it at that point.
Also, if that's your argument, I can say the same about project Overlord. It was not TIM's idea to connect David directly to the geth neural network, but Archer's idea. TIM didn't know at that point, just like the Alliance didn't know about Sovereign and Shu Qian's personal twist on their research after finding Sovereign.
Modifié par Luc0s, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:25 .
#17
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:19
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AlexXIV wrote...
A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus.
Says who?
I smell a 'no-true Scotsman' fallacy here.
Modifié par Luc0s, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:20 .
#18
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:23
didymos1120
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Luc0s wrote...
didymos1120 wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
In fact, the Alliance was doing exactly the same at Sidon, they simply used other, less extreme methods.
Um, no, they weren't. That was Shu Qian's theory about what might be done with Sovereign, and Sovereign was not something he had shared with the Alliance.
Euhm, did you actually pay attention at all? The project at Sidon was an A.I. project, trying to understand and control A.I's, that would give the Alliance (and the rest of Council space) and upper edge against the geth, maybe even control them. That's the main reason why the Alliance started the project. Sovereign had nothing to do with it at that point.
Nope:
"I'm sorry, ma’am. I’m just surprised we’re conducting AI research. Seems pretty risky.”
“We are well aware of the dangers,” the ambassador reassured him. “We have no intention of unleashing a fully formed AI on the galaxy. The goals of the project were very specific: create limited AI simulations for observation and study.
“Humanity is the underdog now,” she continued. “We’re expanding, but we still don’t have the numbers or the fleets to match the major species vying for power in Council space. We need some kind of advantage. Understanding AI technology would help give us the edge we need to compete and survive.”
“You of all people should understand,” the captain added. “Without rudimentary AI technology we’d all be living under turian rule right now.”
#19
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:24
Bekkael
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My Renegon FemShep (who is one of my favorite playthroughs) utterly despises Cerberus and sneered at/insulted TIM all the way through ME2. She didn't forget her history with the organization in ME1 and hated being railroaded into working with them just as much as my Paragade FemSheps did.
So, Renegade does not automatically = Cerberus devotee. *shudder* Not by a long shot.
So, Renegade does not automatically = Cerberus devotee. *shudder* Not by a long shot.
#20
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:25
AlexXIV
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Because a paragon is an ideal. Or rather stands for ideals. Bigger than life. They are 'unreal'. They are the heroes sung in stories when everyone knows that the real person probably was different. They are Robin Hood or King Arthur, or Hercules, or Siegfried. They have no flaws. They live and die like heroes.Luc0s wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus.
Says who?
I smell a 'no-true Scotsman fallacy' here.
Basically, if you want so, a renegade doesn't let morals ruin a good plan. A paragon won't give up his ideals for a good plan/tactic. Paragons can only succeed because they live in a fairytale world in which being a paragon will pay off in the end because there is a higher power protecting them.
Not sure what being scotsman has to do with it, because paragon is a mindset, not a race or nationality.
#21
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:27
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didymos1120 wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
didymos1120 wrote...
Luc0s wrote...
In fact, the Alliance was doing exactly the same at Sidon, they simply used other, less extreme methods.
Um, no, they weren't. That was Shu Qian's theory about what might be done with Sovereign, and Sovereign was not something he had shared with the Alliance.
Euhm, did you actually pay attention at all? The project at Sidon was an A.I. project, trying to understand and control A.I's, that would give the Alliance (and the rest of Council space) and upper edge against the geth, maybe even control them. That's the main reason why the Alliance started the project. Sovereign had nothing to do with it at that point.
Nope:"I'm sorry, ma’am. I’m just surprised we’re conducting AI research. Seems pretty risky.”
“We are well aware of the dangers,” the ambassador reassured him. “We have no intention of unleashing a fully formed AI on the galaxy. The goals of the project were very specific: create limited AI simulations for observation and study.
“Humanity is the underdog now,” she continued. “We’re expanding, but we still don’t have the numbers or the fleets to match the major species vying for power in Council space. We need some kind of advantage. Understanding AI technology would help give us the edge we need to compete and survive.”
“You of all people should understand,” the captain added. “Without rudimentary AI technology we’d all be living under turian rule right now.”
How does that not directly prove my point? Especially the last part. Your quotes actually prove me right, not wrong.
#22
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:27
LPPrince
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What defines a Paragon and Renegade is different in everyone's opinion, keep that in mind guys.
Y'all might not see things the same way, so lets try to stay away from any dictations of facts.
Y'all might not see things the same way, so lets try to stay away from any dictations of facts.
#23
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:28
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But if I don't dictate the facts, someone else will do it. I can't let that happen.LPPrince wrote...
What defines a Paragon and Renegade is different in everyone's opinion, keep that in mind guys.
Y'all might not see things the same way, so lets try to stay away from any dictations of facts.
#24
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:28
Shub-Niggurath64
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I have a few renegade (renegon really I guess, though I'm not sure where the dividing line is) FemSheps that are the same. It didn't make any sense for either of them to be pro-Cerberus when they both have alien LIs.Bekkael wrote...
My Renegon FemShep (who is one of my favorite playthroughs) utterly despises Cerberus and sneered at/insulted TIM all the way through ME2. She didn't forget her history with the organization in ME1 and hated being railroaded into working with them just as much as my Paragade FemSheps did.
So, Renegade does not automatically = Cerberus devotee. *shudder* Not by a long shot.
I just realized that I don't have any renegade ManSheps though. I may have some strange subconscious form of sexism going on.
Modifié par Shub-Niggurath64, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:29 .
#25
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 01:28
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AlexXIV wrote...
Because a paragon is an ideal. Or rather stands for ideals. Bigger than life. They are 'unreal'. They are the heroes sung in stories when everyone knows that the real person probably was different. They are Robin Hood or King Arthur, or Hercules, or Siegfried. They have no flaws. They live and die like heroes.Luc0s wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus.
Says who?
I smell a 'no-true Scotsman fallacy' here.
Basically, if you want so, a renegade doesn't let morals ruin a good plan. A paragon won't give up his ideals for a good plan/tactic. Paragons can only succeed because they live in a fairytale world in which being a paragon will pay off in the end because there is a higher power protecting them.
Not sure what being scotsman has to do with it, because paragon is a mindset, not a race or nationality.
All I see here is YOUR personal take on what it means to be Paragon. That doesn't mean I agree with it. You can think whatever you want about Paragon, but that doesn't make it so. Your entire post is entirely your opinion and by no means a fact.
