434 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Luc0s wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

 In fact, the Alliance was doing exactly the same at Sidon, they simply used other, less extreme methods.

Um, no, they weren't.  That was Shu Qian's theory about what might be done with Sovereign, and Sovereign was not something he had shared with the Alliance.

Euhm, did you actually pay attention at all? The project at Sidon was an A.I. project, trying to understand and control A.I's, that would give the Alliance (and the rest of Council space) and upper edge against the geth, maybe even control them. That's the main reason why the Alliance started the project. Sovereign had nothing to do with it at that point.

Nope:

"I'm sorry, ma’am. I’m just surprised we’re conducting AI research. Seems pretty risky.”

“We are well aware of the dangers,” the ambassador reassured him. “We have no intention of unleashing a fully formed AI on the galaxy. The goals of the project were very specific: create limited AI simulations for observation and study.

“Humanity is the underdog now,” she continued. “We’re expanding, but we still don’t have the numbers or the fleets to match the major species vying for power in Council space. We need some kind of advantage. Understanding AI technology would help give us the edge we need to compete and survive.”

“You of all people should understand,” the captain added. “Without rudimentary AI technology we’d all be living under turian rule right now.”

How does that not directly prove my point? Especially the last part. Your quotes actually prove me right, not wrong.

Because it had nothing to do with learning how to control the geth, as you originally claimed when equating it with Overlord.

[DiebytheSword]

AlexXIV wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

SarunasAndSoOn wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus

But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.

that is a more exceptable generalization.

I cannot honestly think of a single pro-Cerberus person who doesn't main a Renegade Shepard.

I actually can.  Lotion Sorronar plays mostly Paragon, and he support Cerberus' efforts and methods in as far as stopping the reapers.

That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.

Lotion is what I would consider selfrighteous paladin. Bit like Meredith without the crazy. He is not a real paragon though. Paragade or Renegon, as you may see it. A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus. Paragades may, Renegons may, Renegades may support Cerberus, but anyone who is a true paragon just doesn't. That's why Cerberus is closer to renegades than to paragons.

I disagree, I like Didy's breakdown.  Paragon and Renegade are more tendancy/attitude than they are true alignments.  By definition, a Ceberus Paragon would always do things freindly to Cerberus, and a Cerberus Renegade would screw them at every turn.  A straight Paragon/Renegade path doesn't actually make sense in any way shape or form.

I personally play Paragrade more than anything else, finding true Paragon and Renegade to be tedious and boorish respectively.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus.

Says who?

I smell a 'no-true Scotsman fallacy' here.

Because a paragon is an ideal. Or rather stands for ideals. Bigger than life. They are 'unreal'. They are the heroes sung in stories when everyone knows that the real person probably was different. They are Robin Hood or King Arthur, or Hercules, or Siegfried. They have no flaws. They live and die like heroes.

Basically, if you want so, a renegade doesn't let morals ruin a good plan. A paragon won't give up his ideals for a good plan/tactic. Paragons can only succeed because they live in a fairytale world in which being a paragon will pay off in the end because there is a higher power protecting them.

Not sure what being scotsman has to do with it, because paragon is a mindset, not a race or nationality.

All I see here is YOUR personal take on what it means to be Paragon. That doesn't mean I agree with it. You can think whatever you want about Paragon, but that doesn't make it so. Your entire post is entirely your opinion and by no means a fact.

If I remember correctly you are not a paragon. Make a playthrough and only pick paragon choices, no matter what. No matter how much you want to do a renegade interrupt or pick a snarky response, no matter if you want to cut of connection to the Council. Stay true to paragon at any time at any cost. Then you know what being true paragon is about. The game itself tells you and make no mistake, it is not as easy as some people make it. I did it once and not a second time after.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

What defines a Paragon and Renegade is different in everyone's opinion, keep that in mind guys.

Y'all might not see things the same way, so lets try to stay away from any dictations of facts.

But if I don't dictate the facts, someone else will do it. I can't let that happen.

You don't dictate the facts, you merely dictate your own opinion, which you try to sell as facts, but they aren't. Stop deluding yourself.

Stop being so serious buddy, you should know by now that I am mostly not

[DiebytheSword]

AlexXIV wrote...

Because a paragon is an ideal. Or rather stands for ideals. Bigger than life. They are 'unreal'. They are the heroes sung in stories when everyone knows that the real person probably was different. They are Robin Hood or King Arthur, or Hercules, or Siegfried. They have no flaws. They live and die like heroes.

Basically, if you want so, a renegade doesn't let morals ruin a good plan. A paragon won't give up his ideals for a good plan/tactic. Paragons can only succeed because they live in a fairytale world in which being a paragon will pay off in the end because there is a higher power protecting them.

Not sure what being scotsman has to do with it, because paragon is a mindset, not a race or nationality.

And Cerberus does not have ideals or heroes?  They may clash with your ideals, but that does not make them inellegable to be a Paragon of their ideal.

You are confusing a paragon of virtue with paragons as defined by the game.  By being nice to Aria T'Loak, or shredding a freind in a crisis of confidence (Mordin) in what way are you a paragon of virtue?

Paragon is situational and subjective, as is Renegade.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:48 .

[Bekkael]

Shub-Niggurath64 wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

My Renegon FemShep (who is one of my favorite playthroughs) utterly despises Cerberus and sneered at/insulted TIM all the way through ME2. She didn't forget her history with the organization in ME1 and hated being railroaded into working with them just as much as my Paragade FemSheps did.

So, Renegade does not automatically = Cerberus devotee. *shudder* Not by a long shot.

I have a few renegade (renegon really I guess, though I'm not sure where the dividing line is) FemSheps that are the same. It didn't make any sense for either of them to be pro-Cerberus when they both have alien LIs.

I just realized that I don't have any renegade ManSheps though. I may have some strange subconscious form of sexism going on.

I think it likely that most people end up being renegon or paragade, just because pure paragon and pure renegade are really hard to do every. single. choice. My paragons always have 1/4 full renegade and vice versa when I play it from the other side.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

What defines a Paragon and Renegade is different in everyone's opinion, keep that in mind guys.

Y'all might not see things the same way, so lets try to stay away from any dictations of facts.

But if I don't dictate the facts, someone else will do it. I can't let that happen.

You don't dictate the facts, you merely dictate your own opinion, which you try to sell as facts, but they aren't. Stop deluding yourself.

Stop being so serious buddy, you should know by now that I am mostly not

That's what you always say when I point out that you're wrong.

I don't care if I am wrong. There is no reason for me to be right all the time, just as there is no reason to be serious all the time.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus.

Says who?

I smell a 'no-true Scotsman fallacy' here.

Because a paragon is an ideal. Or rather stands for ideals. Bigger than life. They are 'unreal'. They are the heroes sung in stories when everyone knows that the real person probably was different. They are Robin Hood or King Arthur, or Hercules, or Siegfried. They have no flaws. They live and die like heroes.

Basically, if you want so, a renegade doesn't let morals ruin a good plan. A paragon won't give up his ideals for a good plan/tactic. Paragons can only succeed because they live in a fairytale world in which being a paragon will pay off in the end because there is a higher power protecting them.

Not sure what being scotsman has to do with it, because paragon is a mindset, not a race or nationality.

All I see here is YOUR personal take on what it means to be Paragon. That doesn't mean I agree with it. You can think whatever you want about Paragon, but that doesn't make it so. Your entire post is entirely your opinion and by no means a fact.

If I remember correctly you are not a paragon. Make a playthrough and only pick paragon choices, no matter what. No matter how much you want to do a renegade interrupt or pick a snarky response, no matter if you want to cut of connection to the Council. Stay true to paragon at any time at any cost. Then you know what being true paragon is about. The game itself tells you and make no mistake, it is not as easy as some people make it. I did it once and not a second time after.

And again with the no-true Scotsman fallacies.


What makes you think a "true Paragon" isn't allowed to do Renegade interrupts? That doesn't make any sense. Even if it did make sense, it still only YOUR perception of what it means to be a "true Paragon". But again, I don't agree with it.

YOUR definition of "true Paragon" =/= MY definition of "true Paragon".


Nothing of what you say  here is fact, merely opinion and personal view.

Because there are decisions. You have the choice to go the right path or the left. If you want to be a true lefty, always pick the left. The term 'true' is used to stress a certain purity, an actual effort. It makes no sense to say 'true Paragon' if you make Renegade choices whenever you feel like it. You don't create something pure with halfarsedness.

That said, Shepard isn't even a true Paragon anymore. Not since ME2. Because a true Paragon would never have worked with Cerberus to begin with. That's why my Shepard isn't the same anymore since he died and was revived.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

SarunasAndSoOn wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus

But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.

that is a more exceptable generalization.

I cannot honestly think of a single pro-Cerberus person who doesn't main a Renegade Shepard.

I actually can.  Lotion Sorronar plays mostly Paragon, and he support Cerberus' efforts and methods in as far as stopping the reapers.

That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.

Lotion is what I would consider selfrighteous paladin. Bit like Meredith without the crazy. He is not a real paragon though. Paragade or Renegon, as you may see it. A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus. Paragades may, Renegons may, Renegades may support Cerberus, but anyone who is a true paragon just doesn't. That's why Cerberus is closer to renegades than to paragons.

A No True Paragon fallacy? Really?

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

SarunasAndSoOn wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Not all Renegades are pro-Cerberus

But a very hefty amount of pro Cerberus are Renegade.

that is a more exceptable generalization.

I cannot honestly think of a single pro-Cerberus person who doesn't main a Renegade Shepard.

I actually can.  Lotion Sorronar plays mostly Paragon, and he support Cerberus' efforts and methods in as far as stopping the reapers.

That's just one example, I'm sure there are others.

Lotion is what I would consider selfrighteous paladin. Bit like Meredith without the crazy. He is not a real paragon though. Paragade or Renegon, as you may see it. A true paragon can under no circumstances support Cerberus. Paragades may, Renegons may, Renegades may support Cerberus, but anyone who is a true paragon just doesn't. That's why Cerberus is closer to renegades than to paragons.

A No True Paragon fallacy? Really?

Yeah really.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shape up, then, and pick a better argument than 'it is what it is because I say it is because that is what it is, despite evidence to the contrary.'

You're usually not this farcical.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 janvier 2012 - 02:00 .

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Nothing of what you say  here is fact, merely opinion and personal view.

Because there are decisions. You have the choice to go the right path or the left. If you want to be a true lefty, always pick the left. The term 'true' is used to stress a certain purity, an actual effort. It makes no sense to say 'true Paragon' if you make Renegade choices whenever you feel like it. You don't create something pure with halfarsedness.

That said, Shepard isn't even a true Paragon anymore. Not since ME2. Because a true Paragon would never have worked with Cerberus to begin with. That's why my Shepard isn't the same anymore since he died and was revived.

Again:

Nothing of what you say  here is fact, merely opinion and personal view.


So a heterosexual girl who kissed another girl in the past because she was curious, is not a true heterosexual girl?

Trying something different, or choosing something different on occasions, for whatever reason, does not mean your not a true [fill something in here].

I'm a total sci-fi fan. I love sci-fi. I consider myself a true sci-fi fan. However, I do not like every single sci-fi movie or game.

According to your logic, I'm not a "true" sci-fi fan. Because according to you, a "true" sci-fi fan would love every single sci-fi movie or sci-fi game ever made.

See how ridiculous that sounds?

Then why use the term 'true'? Just say you are a sci-fi fan. And considering that fan stands for fanatic ...

Your examples are a bit bad. For once there are sci-fi stories of different quality. And also kissing someone doesn't make you heterosexual or homosexual. I kiss my parents, am I bi because of that? No. It is about wanting to have sex with same sex or different sex. And tbh if you have 100 lovers in your life, and 90 were opposite sex and 10 same sex, then likely you are bisexual. 99% is not 100%.

[didymos1120]

AlexXIV wrote...

That said, Shepard isn't even a true Paragon anymore.

Allow me to demolish this simplistic "One True Paragon" notion:

Citadel: Homecoming:

You can either have the body returned to Samesh, or retained by the Alliance.  You can accomplish either via a Paragon or Renegade option.  The same exact choice can be "Paragon" or "Renegade". 

And that is not an isolated example.

Modifié par didymos1120, 10 janvier 2012 - 02:15 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

I would side with Cerberus because their seats are made from real leather.

[AlexXIV]

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

That said, Shepard isn't even a true Paragon anymore.

Allow me to demolish this simplistic "One True Paragon" notion:

Citadel: Homecoming:

You can either have the body returned to Samesh, or retained by the Alliance.  You can accomplish either via a Paragon or Renegade option.  The same exact choice can be "Paragon" or "Renegade". 

And that is not an isolated example.

Paragon is to give him the body, renegade is to let the alliance survey it. Not sure what you are talking about.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Then why use the term 'true'?

You started it. You started by saying that a true Paragon would never agree with Cerberus.

I always place "true" between quotes for a reason, because the word "true" is completely meaningless and there is no clear definition of "true" in this context. That's why your arguments are no-true Scotsman fallacies.


When someone says: "I'm a true sci-fi fan", he's actually saying: "I'm a really big sci-fi fan".

When someone says: "I'm a true Paragon player", he's most likely saying: "I mostly pick Paragon decision and every rarely do I pick Renegade decisions".

No one always picks exclusively the Paragon options in every single dialogue. I can't believe anyone would truly play like that. So according to you, no one on this entire forum is a "true Paragon".

AlexXIV wrote...

Your examples are a bit bad.

My examples are not bad. Your view on Paragon and Renegade is bad and your definition of "true Paragon" is even worse.

It's not my fault people use words without meaning it. Also I am entitled to my opinion. Meaning my opinion is fact as far as I am concerned. Argueing with you guys is hard work and I rather just say my piece and let you think about it whatever you want.