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[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

That said, Shepard isn't even a true Paragon anymore.

Allow me to demolish this simplistic "One True Paragon" notion:

Citadel: Homecoming:

You can either have the body returned to Samesh, or retained by the Alliance.  You can accomplish either via a Paragon or Renegade option.  The same exact choice can be "Paragon" or "Renegade". 

And that is not an isolated example.

Paragon is to give him the body, renegade is to let the alliance survey it. Not sure what you are talking about.

Not true.

You convince Samesh that studying the body is a good thing with a Paragon persuasion.

Which is why the system sucks.

[didymos1120]

Another one where the same action can be either Paragon or Renegade:

Citadel: Presidium Prophet

[DiebytheSword]

AlexXIV wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

That said, Shepard isn't even a true Paragon anymore.

Allow me to demolish this simplistic "One True Paragon" notion:

Citadel: Homecoming:

You can either have the body returned to Samesh, or retained by the Alliance.  You can accomplish either via a Paragon or Renegade option.  The same exact choice can be "Paragon" or "Renegade". 

And that is not an isolated example.

Paragon is to give him the body, renegade is to let the alliance survey it. Not sure what you are talking about.

Paragon of Virtue:

Paragon:  Reuniting a greiving man with his departed's corpse.
Renegade: Allowing the body to be studied against the next of kin's wishes.

Paragon of the Alliance:

Paragon: Instead of getting the body for Samesh, convince Samesh that this is a course of actions that will save lives, and that this action is for the greater good.

Renegade:  Get the body for Samesh by screaming at the alliance beurocrat.

It depends, utterly, on what set of morals you ascribe to.  There is no true paragon true renegade path, but a path for a Paragon of Virtue, which may well include renegade choices.

[didymos1120]

AlexXIV wrote...

Which is why the system sucks.

Nope.  You're just trying to turn Paragon and Renegade into something they're not.  Which is to say, internally consistent ideologies (or "philosophies", if you prefer).

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

It's not my fault people use words without meaning it. Also I am entitled to my opinion. Meaning my opinion is fact as far as I am concerned. Argueing with you guys is hard work and I rather just say my piece and let you think about it whatever you want.

You clearly need to learn what the word "fact" really means.


But based on your comments, I believe you still need to learn a lot about life and this world in general.

What do the words 'as far as I am concerned' mean to you? All morals are opinons. But some people make them facts in their lives, no matter if others agree or not. And so do I. I don't need to explain everything. Especially if it is about things that everyone and their mom have a different opinion on. I think rapists shouldn't go to jail, they should be publicly killed like in the good old medivial times. Alot of people would disagree and argue how society made them or how they had a bad childhood. Do I care? No I don't. Neither do I care that people think I am a bad person because of it. Because I believe in it. Like-minded people understand each other without words. I'd like to discuss every single decision you made and why you made it. But we neither have the time nor patience.

[AlexXIV]

didymos1120 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Which is why the system sucks.

Nope.  You're just trying to turn Paragon and Renegade into something they're not.  Which is to say, internally consistent ideologies (or "philosophies", if you prefer).

Bioware are inconsistent in their paragon/renegade system. That's why it sucks. Where is the paragon decision to keep the base or the renegade decision to destroy it?

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Because a paragon is an ideal. Or rather stands for ideals. Bigger than life.

What a sad world we live in when loyalty to your people and nation is a "flaw".

It's not a flaw in itself.

[AlexXIV]

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

It's not my fault people use words without meaning it. Also I am entitled to my opinion. Meaning my opinion is fact as far as I am concerned. Argueing with you guys is hard work and I rather just say my piece and let you think about it whatever you want.

You clearly need to learn what the word "fact" really means.


But based on your comments, I believe you still need to learn a lot about life and this world in general.

What do the words 'as far as I am concerned' mean to you? All morals are opinons. But some people make them facts in their lives, no matter if others agree or not. And so do I. I don't need to explain everything. Especially if it is about things that everyone and their mom have a different opinion on. I think rapists shouldn't go to jail, they should be publicly killed like in the good old medivial times. Alot of people would disagree and argue how society made them or how they had a bad childhood. Do I care? No I don't. Neither do I care that people think I am a bad person because of it. Because I believe in it. Like-minded people understand each other without words. I'd like to discuss every single decision you made and why you made it. But we neither have the time nor patience.

You still don't get it do you? Opinions can never be fact. An opinion is the direct opposite of fact.

It's a fact that you're posting comments on this forum. It's my opinion that you're posting stupid comments on this forum. See the difference?

Something is a fact when it's objectively true. Objective truth is fact. Objective reality is fact. Opinions are not objective. Opinions are subjective. And there is no such thing as a subjective fact.


Get real kid and stop with the BS comments.

You are so hung up with semantics that you fail to grasp what I am talking about. There are many facts that are actually opinons. Because it could only be a fact to you if you can be 100% sure, and when can you really?

[Ryuzetsu]

I can see why a renegade would have problems with Cerberus, it's a big balls thing. A lot of Renegades believe that they are the baddest ass in the galaxy, and some are right, but I would think that most renegades would view Cerberus as a usurper of their potential power. At that point it just comes down to ****** waving.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Because a paragon is an ideal. Or rather stands for ideals. Bigger than life.

What a sad world we live in when loyalty to your people and nation is a "flaw".

This I very much agree with, I consider you to be a Cerberus Paragon, a perfect example of what I was talking about before.

[squee365]

Lets make some positives of this:

Mass Effect has a really diverse fan base with people of different opinions, viewpoints, and interests. I think its awesome but I may be one of the few to see the social aspect of this >_>

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ryuzetsu wrote...

I can see why a renegade would have problems with Cerberus, it's a big balls thing. A lot of Renegades believe that they are the baddest ass in the galaxy,

I only ever get that vibe from the Paragon players.

No, Paragon players are the badasses Renegade players want to be.

[squee365]

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Lets make some positives of this:

Mass Effect has a really diverse fan base with people of different opinions, viewpoints, and interests. I think its awesome but I may be one of the few to see the social aspect of this >_>

All of you make me miserable and I wouldn't miss you if you were gone.

Diversity is overrated. It's a lie. It's bad.

And there's the downside. Theres people who just want to make you miserable no matter what you think...

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Lets make some positives of this:

Mass Effect has a really diverse fan base with people of different opinions, viewpoints, and interests. I think its awesome but I may be one of the few to see the social aspect of this >_>

All of you make me miserable and I wouldn't miss you if you were gone.

Diversity is overrated. It's a lie. It's bad.

And let me add to this that sometimes less opinions are better than more opinions.

[AlexXIV]

squee365 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Lets make some positives of this:

Mass Effect has a really diverse fan base with people of different opinions, viewpoints, and interests. I think its awesome but I may be one of the few to see the social aspect of this >_>

All of you make me miserable and I wouldn't miss you if you were gone.

Diversity is overrated. It's a lie. It's bad.

And there's the downside. Theres people who just want to make you miserable no matter what you think...

Don't take him serious. Because he isn't.

[BlueMagitek]

AlexXIV wrote...

Because a paragon is an ideal. Or rather stands for ideals. Bigger than life. They are 'unreal'. They are the heroes sung in stories when everyone knows that the real person probably was different. They are Robin Hood or King Arthur, or Hercules, or Siegfried. They have no flaws. They live and die like heroes.

Basically, if you want so, a renegade doesn't let morals ruin a good plan. A paragon won't give up his ideals for a good plan/tactic. Paragons can only succeed because they live in a fairytale world in which being a paragon will pay off in the end because there is a higher power protecting them.

Not sure what being scotsman has to do with it, because paragon is a mindset, not a race or nationality.

I realize I come into this late, but what?

Every single hero you listed has flaws. Especially Hercules. They didn't choose the "morally correct" option every single time, nor should they be expected to.  Heck, the qualifications of a hero changes based on the time they're in.  From your Robin Hood example, a lot of people see King Richard as a hero, but he was a warmonger who would sell London to finance his wars.  And the flaws are a part of the story (especially for Siegfried & Hercules).

No true Scotsman is a fallacy.  It's like a red herring; doesn't have to be about fish.

http://en.wikipedia....o_true_Scotsman

[GodWood]

Saphra Deden wrote...
All of you make me miserable and I wouldn't miss you if you were gone.

Seeing how the majority of people tackle the 'moral issues' of Mass Effect has certainly exacerbated my misanthropy.

[Laser Beam]

People are still arguing about two pre-determined choices?

It's like arguing about whether peanut butter or jelly taste better.