Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Luc0s wrote..
Morality is subjective.
Depends whom you ask.
Duh.
That's why it's subjective.
Renegades are NOT all enamored by cerberus/TIM
Débuté par
SarunasAndSoOn
, janv. 10 2012 12:08
#176
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 04:27
Someone With Mass
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Duh.
That's why it's subjective.
Retour en haut
#177
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 04:28
The Prince Zeel
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Someone With Mass wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Luc0s wrote..
Morality is subjective.
Depends whom you ask.
Duh.
That's why it's subjective.
Reminds me of a Hitchens debate I just watched. (R.I.P) The pastor was going on and on about how OBJECTIVE morality was.
#178
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 04:31
Guest_Luc0s_*
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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Luc0s wrote..
Morality is subjective.
Depends whom you ask.
I know there are people who believe that morality is objective, but the evidence points towards the contrary. Morality is subjective.
#179
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 04:32
Il Divo
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Someone With Mass wrote...
Duh.
That's why it's subjective.
I think there's two levels to consider here. Morality is subjective in the sense that every individual might have a different conception of what morality is, which gets debated ad infinitum. However, there are systems, such as moral absolutism, which paint very black and white pictures. In those systems, morality isn't considered to be based on perspective or relative to the person.
#180
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 04:36
AlexXIV
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Luc0s wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Luc0s wrote..
Morality is subjective.
Depends whom you ask.
I know there are people who believe that morality is objective, but the evidence points towards the contrary. Morality is subjective.
That's convenient because you can just say hey, that's your opinon of morale. Raped someone and think it is morally acceptable? Well since morals are subjective it may be for some people.
#181
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 04:37
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Il Divo wrote...
Someone With Mass wrote...
Duh.
That's why it's subjective.
I think there's two levels to consider here. Morality is subjective in the sense that every individual might have a different conception of what morality is, which gets debated ad infinitum. However, there are systems, such as moral absolutism, which paint very black and white pictures. In those systems, morality isn't considered to be based on perspective or relative to the person.
Moral absolutism is a hoax and doesn't exist. I know some people believe it does exist, but I think it doesn't. Morality depends on the consequences or the context of the act and there is no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil.
#182
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 04:40
Il Divo
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Luc0s wrote...
Moral absolutism is a hoax and doesn't exist. I know some people believe it does exist, but I think it doesn't. Morality depends on the consequences or the context of the act and there is no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil.
And that's exactly how a consequentialist would look at it, which is fine. I lean in that direction as well. But to anyone who believes there are certain rules of morality and conduct, it becomes an issue of depending on whom one talks to, which was Lotion's claim.
Modifié par Il Divo, 10 janvier 2012 - 04:40 .
#183
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 04:46
JamieCOTC
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My last full playthrough was a full throttle renegade femshep and although she takes a pro-human stance, she doesn't like Cerberus. The main reason is that she doesn't trust TIM. She in fact blew up the base. My renegade manShep works w/ Cerberus and even vouches for them up to the point that they are fighting a greater evil, but he doesn't trust TIM either. None of my Shepards trust him, though two gambled and gave him the base.
#184
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 06:10
Kaiser Arian XVII
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Morality is objective. The point is there is so many things and factors in each situation to consider for proper moral decision.
Absolute good deeds, Individual and social good acts, Political Honor, the war situation, Good or Evil Government, benefit and etc. . It is so complex .. anarchists, gray-moral followers and evil persons tend to abuse this complexity and say that Morality is subjective and do everything they want.
There is different levels of morality: From saints and very good people, above and below average to very evil people and devils. A new collective book of moral laws is necessary, majorly based on morality of Plato, Aristotle, Kant and Hegel. Also Nietzsche can stare to his abyss! ... but currently This project is beyond my knowledge.
Absolute good deeds, Individual and social good acts, Political Honor, the war situation, Good or Evil Government, benefit and etc. . It is so complex .. anarchists, gray-moral followers and evil persons tend to abuse this complexity and say that Morality is subjective and do everything they want.
There is different levels of morality: From saints and very good people, above and below average to very evil people and devils. A new collective book of moral laws is necessary, majorly based on morality of Plato, Aristotle, Kant and Hegel. Also Nietzsche can stare to his abyss! ... but currently This project is beyond my knowledge.
#185
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 06:20
Arkitekt
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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Luc0s wrote..
Morality is subjective.
Depends whom you ask.
Now that made me chuckle.
#186
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 06:23
Arkitekt
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AlexXIV wrote...
That's convenient because you can just say hey, that's your opinon of morale. Raped someone and think it is morally acceptable? Well since morals are subjective it may be for some people.
The problem is not if whether it is "convenient" or not, but if you can pull it off or not. Clearly, you haven't thought this through, which does not surprise me in the least. Morals are built by the society at large, and you don't get to decide what kind of morals the rest of us judge you with. This utterly stupid argument that morals are objective, else everyone gets to rape everyone is so so so dumb, that I'm amazed that so many people actually use it.
Oh. Oh wait.
#187
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 06:38
Kaiser Arian XVII
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Arkitekt wrote...
Morals are built by the society at large
I read a sociology book for two weeks and what I think about it: crap.
A good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers. Morality is about how to make decisions and the crowd aren't capable of understanding every important and complex matters. I'm not a fan of Democracy for many reasons and this is one of them.
The Empire with Philosopher Elites ftw.
In other hand It's also about the scientists who want to enhance their overrated science as master of everything: Only our great science is Objective; Everything else is subjective and therefore Bs.
#188
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 06:40
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Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...
Morality is objective.
No it's not. You have no proof that morality is objective. The evidence hints towards the opposite, that morality is subjective.
Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...
The point is there is so many things and factors in each situation to consider for proper moral decision.
Absolute good deeds, Individual and social good acts, Political Honor, the war situation, Good or Evil Government, benefit and etc. . It is so complex .. anarchists, gray-moral followers and evil persons tend to abuse this complexity and say that Morality is subjective and do everything they want.
That's bull**** I'd expect Christian fundamentalists to say. Are you a Christian fundamentalist?
Subjective morality does not mean we can and will do whatever the hell we want. There is still a biological leash and there is still peer pressure. Our moral compass is based on whatever we believe is right and whatever is expected from us from our peers and superiors.
A Muslim who commits a suicide attack against the American army, for the sake of freedom for his people, is a bad person in the eyes of most Americans, but back home his family tell he was a hero and his suicide attack was an act of heroism.
Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...
There is different levels of morality: From saints and very good people, above and below average to very evil people and devils.
A person can be a saint in the eyes of his comrades but a devil in the eyes of his enemies. There is no objective scale to measure people's morality. Not a single person on this planet is objectively good or objectively evil. It's all subjective and each person has a different view on this.
For example, I think the pope is an evil douchebag. I bet most Catholics would disagree with me.
I think that God as described in the Old Testament of the Christian bible is a completely ruthless, deceptive and evil tyran, he's worse than the devil. Again, I bet most Christians would disagree with me.
#189
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 06:43
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Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...
In other hand It's also about the scientists who want to enhance their overrated science as master of everything: Only our great science is Objective; Everything else is subjective and therefore Bs.
You clearly don't understand much about science.
Science is nothing more than a tool. Science is a tool to find the objective truth, or at least find something close to it.
We humans search for knowledge and the truth, we all do, it's in our nature. Science is a tool that will help us to find knowledge and truth. It's a reliable and unbiased tool. It has done a great job so far.
Science isn't knowledge. Science isn't truth. Instead, science is the pursuit of knowledge, and the pursuit of truth.
Without science, most technology we own today wouldn't even exist.
Modifié par Luc0s, 10 janvier 2012 - 06:45 .
#190
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 07:12
element seventynine
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Morality is objective. Good and Evil is the same thing as Right and Wrong and some things are more right than others, but often we disagree on what is good and evil. Just because we think something is right doesn't mean it is but there is always something is right.
My opinion is that good actions are beneficial and evil actions are detrimental (which may seem obvious) to the universe and therefore to humanity which usually means to me and you. You could also say that good actions are beneficial and evil actions are detrimental to yourself but then morality would be subjective.
To say that all actions are equally moral or subjectively moral are very dangerous for obvius reasons.
My opinion is that good actions are beneficial and evil actions are detrimental (which may seem obvious) to the universe and therefore to humanity which usually means to me and you. You could also say that good actions are beneficial and evil actions are detrimental to yourself but then morality would be subjective.
To say that all actions are equally moral or subjectively moral are very dangerous for obvius reasons.
#191
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 07:26
Dean_the_Young
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Morality is not objective because there many different forms of morality, some of which are mutually exclusive to each other. Deontological versus teleological is one big divide, but even within one side or another you have contradictions.
#192
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 07:36
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element seventynine wrote...
Morality is objective. Good and Evil is the same thing as Right and Wrong and some things are more right than others, but often we disagree on what is good and evil. Just because we think something is right doesn't mean it is but there is always something is right.
My opinion is that good actions are beneficial and evil actions are detrimental (which may seem obvious) to the universe and therefore to humanity which usually means to me and you. You could also say that good actions are beneficial and evil actions are detrimental to yourself but then morality would be subjective.
To say that all actions are equally moral or subjectively moral are very dangerous for obvius reasons.
No no no no NO! Again, NO! *facepalm*
Read Dean Young's comments and my previous comments. Morality is NOT objective, it's SUBJECTIVE.
You say that "good" actions are beneficial to the universe and "evil" actions are detrimental to the universe. Can you explain this in detail? When is an action beneficial to the universe and when is an action detrimental to the universe? One action can be beneficial to me and at the same time be detrimental to someone else. Take the final decision in ME1 for example.
Saving the Destiny Ascention is beneficial to the Council but detrimental to the Alliance soldiers.
Sacrificing the Destiny Ascention is detrimental to the Council but benefitial to the Alliance soldiers.
So what action in ME1's final chapter is "benefitial to the universe" and what action is "detrimental to the universe"?
You even contradict yourself in your own post. First you say morality is objective, then you state what morality is in your opinion. The very fact that you're able to have an opinion on what is good and what is evil, already means that "good" and "evil" aren't objective, but subjective. You have your opinion on what is "good" and what is "evil", I have mine. Opinions are in their very nature subjective.
Modifié par Luc0s, 10 janvier 2012 - 07:40 .
#193
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 07:38
Arkitekt
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Find me one objective absolute moral statement that will always be true no matter what and I'll demolish it to smithereens with counter-examples. Absolutism has been the big poison of our societies at large, and yet people are willing to preserve this medieval line of thought.
To be "Absolutist" regarding science is also dangerous, with all this talk about science being the porsuit of "objective knowledge" and whatever, albeit it is far less dangerous (like a thousand times less dangerous) than all this talk about absolute morality.
You people need to get up to speed to current knowledge about the state of affairs that mankind is into, hell it's not as if you lot aren't like two hundred years late to the party or anything...
To be "Absolutist" regarding science is also dangerous, with all this talk about science being the porsuit of "objective knowledge" and whatever, albeit it is far less dangerous (like a thousand times less dangerous) than all this talk about absolute morality.
You people need to get up to speed to current knowledge about the state of affairs that mankind is into, hell it's not as if you lot aren't like two hundred years late to the party or anything...
#194
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 07:41
Archer Two Four
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I have two renegades: a cerberus loyalist, if you will; and an aggressive shep who always tries to do what is right (sorta like a dr cox shep XD). and I prefer the 2nd. just more interesting as a character, as opposed to the total renegade that killls anything and anyone
#195
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 07:45
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Arkitekt wrote...
To be "Absolutist" regarding science is also dangerous, with all this talk about science being the porsuit of "objective knowledge" and whatever, albeit it is far less dangerous (like a thousand times less dangerous) than all this talk about absolute morality.
You people need to get up to speed to current knowledge about the state of affairs that mankind is into, hell it's not as if you lot aren't like two hundred years late to the party or anything...
Calm down. No one here ever said that science is absolute. I know I didn't.
Science is the pursuit of objective knowledge. Science TRIES to get as close to the objective truth as possible. I fully realize that even science will always be subjective. Everything we observe will always be subjective, since we are prisoners of our bodies and subjective to our body's senses. However, that does not mean one cannot make an attempt to at least try to get as close as possible to the objective truth. Because regardless of the fact that all our experiences are subjective, I do believe such thing as an objective truth exists (and many people with me).
Modifié par Luc0s, 10 janvier 2012 - 07:49 .
#196
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 07:58
Medhia Nox
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@LuC0s: I play "Dark Heresy" - though I also own the Rogue Trader and Deathwatch books.
Dark Heresy is about the Imperial Inquisition.
At any rate - I actually disagree with your assessment of the "Angel of Mercy" - in Warhammer 40K, the bad guys ARE going to win... what the 40K universe is about is stretching failure on indefinitely.
The Angel of Mercy WOULD try to save them... but in the end, I think the only difference between a "Paragon" space marine and a "Renegade" space marine would be how they felt after they burned down the village.
Saving them... is the path to Chaos. Sympathizing with the enemy... is subversive to the soul (the soul is a scientific fact in the Warhammer 40K universe).
====
At any rate - it is "Renegade" acts that have landed 40K in the place it is. The Chaos gods feed off base emotions.
The Imperium empowers the Chaos gods far more than it defeats them.
The Eldar know this - that's why their race is polarized (they practice self-control/the Dark Eldar give in to passions). They've been trying to get through to humanity in the 40K universe for eons... but the Imperium won't hear it.
====
At any rate - the 40K universe is the defiance against insurmountable odds.... I sincerely have NEVER felt that way in Mass Effect. I have only felt that people on the boards have blown the Reapers way out of proportion until they have become their own uber-evil.
Uber-evils are literary contrivances to take morality out of the equation. They're sloppy... and I despise the Reaper's role in ME (even with how all encompassing it is).
In something like 40K - uber-evils are just a backdrop. "You're going to lose - but, you can lose on your own terms. Do you give in to the inevitability of the Chaos gods... or do you rage against the dying of the light?"
====
Well - I'm not familiar with Deathwatch's rules as much... but in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader there is Insanity and Corruption.
Corruption would actually be the small things... like hitting reporters, kicking people out windows, etc.
While insanity would be the big things... like blowing up the DA.
Of course - they would provide minor hits of the other. ((Blowing up the DA would provide "some" Corruption))
Corruption in 40K is about the slow subversion of the human will - "slouching toward Bethlehem" as it were - and, if the DM does it right - you won't even know you're worshiping the Chaos gods until it's WAY too late.
Insanity is as much about mental damage - as it is about realizing damaging truths about the universe (especially the 40K universe)
====
I simply do not feel that ME has these qualities... at all.
To me... ME has always been just a heroic space opera where the good guy was destined to win from day one.
It likely doesn't matter to you at all.... but in 40K I am an entirely different mentality than my real life mentality (which I use to make the Mass Effect decisions).
Dark Heresy is about the Imperial Inquisition.
At any rate - I actually disagree with your assessment of the "Angel of Mercy" - in Warhammer 40K, the bad guys ARE going to win... what the 40K universe is about is stretching failure on indefinitely.
The Angel of Mercy WOULD try to save them... but in the end, I think the only difference between a "Paragon" space marine and a "Renegade" space marine would be how they felt after they burned down the village.
Saving them... is the path to Chaos. Sympathizing with the enemy... is subversive to the soul (the soul is a scientific fact in the Warhammer 40K universe).
====
At any rate - it is "Renegade" acts that have landed 40K in the place it is. The Chaos gods feed off base emotions.
The Imperium empowers the Chaos gods far more than it defeats them.
The Eldar know this - that's why their race is polarized (they practice self-control/the Dark Eldar give in to passions). They've been trying to get through to humanity in the 40K universe for eons... but the Imperium won't hear it.
====
At any rate - the 40K universe is the defiance against insurmountable odds.... I sincerely have NEVER felt that way in Mass Effect. I have only felt that people on the boards have blown the Reapers way out of proportion until they have become their own uber-evil.
Uber-evils are literary contrivances to take morality out of the equation. They're sloppy... and I despise the Reaper's role in ME (even with how all encompassing it is).
In something like 40K - uber-evils are just a backdrop. "You're going to lose - but, you can lose on your own terms. Do you give in to the inevitability of the Chaos gods... or do you rage against the dying of the light?"
====
Well - I'm not familiar with Deathwatch's rules as much... but in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader there is Insanity and Corruption.
Corruption would actually be the small things... like hitting reporters, kicking people out windows, etc.
While insanity would be the big things... like blowing up the DA.
Of course - they would provide minor hits of the other. ((Blowing up the DA would provide "some" Corruption))
Corruption in 40K is about the slow subversion of the human will - "slouching toward Bethlehem" as it were - and, if the DM does it right - you won't even know you're worshiping the Chaos gods until it's WAY too late.
Insanity is as much about mental damage - as it is about realizing damaging truths about the universe (especially the 40K universe)
====
I simply do not feel that ME has these qualities... at all.
To me... ME has always been just a heroic space opera where the good guy was destined to win from day one.
It likely doesn't matter to you at all.... but in 40K I am an entirely different mentality than my real life mentality (which I use to make the Mass Effect decisions).
Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 janvier 2012 - 08:00 .
#197
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 08:30
Guest_Luc0s_*
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Medhia Nox wrote...
@LuC0s: I play "Dark Heresy" - though I also own the Rogue Trader and Deathwatch books.
Dark Heresy is about the Imperial Inquisition.
At any rate - I actually disagree with your assessment of the "Angel of Mercy" - in Warhammer 40K, the bad guys ARE going to win... what the 40K universe is about is stretching failure on indefinitely.
The Angel of Mercy WOULD try to save them... but in the end, I think the only difference between a "Paragon" space marine and a "Renegade" space marine would be how they felt after they burned down the village.
Saving them... is the path to Chaos. Sympathizing with the enemy... is subversive to the soul (the soul is a scientific fact in the Warhammer 40K universe).
====
At any rate - it is "Renegade" acts that have landed 40K in the place it is. The Chaos gods feed off base emotions.
The Imperium empowers the Chaos gods far more than it defeats them.
The Eldar know this - that's why their race is polarized (they practice self-control/the Dark Eldar give in to passions). They've been trying to get through to humanity in the 40K universe for eons... but the Imperium won't hear it.
====
At any rate - the 40K universe is the defiance against insurmountable odds.... I sincerely have NEVER felt that way in Mass Effect. I have only felt that people on the boards have blown the Reapers way out of proportion until they have become their own uber-evil.
Uber-evils are literary contrivances to take morality out of the equation. They're sloppy... and I despise the Reaper's role in ME (even with how all encompassing it is).
In something like 40K - uber-evils are just a backdrop. "You're going to lose - but, you can lose on your own terms. Do you give in to the inevitability of the Chaos gods... or do you rage against the dying of the light?"
====
Well - I'm not familiar with Deathwatch's rules as much... but in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader there is Insanity and Corruption.
Corruption would actually be the small things... like hitting reporters, kicking people out windows, etc.
While insanity would be the big things... like blowing up the DA.
Of course - they would provide minor hits of the other. ((Blowing up the DA would provide "some" Corruption))
Corruption in 40K is about the slow subversion of the human will - "slouching toward Bethlehem" as it were - and, if the DM does it right - you won't even know you're worshiping the Chaos gods until it's WAY too late.
Insanity is as much about mental damage - as it is about realizing damaging truths about the universe (especially the 40K universe)
====
I simply do not feel that ME has these qualities... at all.
To me... ME has always been just a heroic space opera where the good guy was destined to win from day one.
It likely doesn't matter to you at all.... but in 40K I am an entirely different mentality than my real life mentality (which I use to make the Mass Effect decisions).
[If you don't care about all the Warhammer 40k stuff, skip directly to the red part of the comment.]
Deathwatch is exactly like Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader.
However, I do think you do not understand the concept of 'corruption' and 'insanity' in the 40k roleplaying games.
Corruption is acting against morality (in 40k morality is frankly enough objective), Insanity comes from experiencing traumatic events.
Both Corruption and Insanity eat away your soul, but both from a different cause. A Space Marine that goes insane because his Insanity points are too high, does not necessarily fall to Chaos. He'll just lose grip on reality and become a liability. A Space marine that goes corrupt because is Corruption points are too high, will be prone to the influence of the Chaos gods and eventually they will fall to Chaos.
Purity (the opposite of Corruption in Deathwatch) is your protection against the Chaos god's influence, it shields your soul from corruption and Corruption points will have less influence on your soul.
I've been a DM (or GM actually, e.g. Game Master) for one of our Deathwatch campaigns once and this is how I handles Insanity and Corruption:
Insanity: If the Space Marine experiences something traumatic, such as getting into contact with the warp or being a witness of the summoning of a warp deamon, the Space Marine can recieve Insanity points (I roll a d5 for this, maybe with a multiplier depending on the severity of the experience).
Corruption: If the Space Marine does something that goes against his purpose or his nature, or if the Space Marine does something that feeds the Chaos gods (like giving in to emotions such as greed) the Space Marine will recieve Corruption points. Again I'll roll a d5 with a multiplier depending on the severity of the situation.
Anyway, about Mass Effect:
I think that the writers of Mass Effect do try to put us in a similar desperate situation as the Imperium of Man is in 40k, but they kinda failed.
I do sense that the reapers are dangerous and we will have to face insane odds in ME3 (I think), but I still don't feel the same sense of desperation as I do when I play Deathwatch (as a player, I'm no longer the GM).
I think if Mass Effect was able to make me feel more desperate as Commander Shepard who has to face insane odds, the Paragon and Renegade choices would become a lot harder. Then the question would be: "How far are you willing to go in a desperate attempt at defeating impossible odds?"
I feel that this question doesn't really fit Mass Effect right now. I don't feel desperate and I feel like I can beat the Reapers without sacrificing my personal moral values. I think this is because BioWare favors the Paragon path and turned the Paragon path into "Paragon = epic win" and "Paragon = best ending". Giving up your personal moral values and going down the Renegade path feels useless and unnecessary. Such a shame...
Modifié par Luc0s, 10 janvier 2012 - 08:33 .
#198
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 08:34
Shepard needs a Vacation
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My renegade shep fights for humanity not cerberus
#199
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 08:40
wright1978
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My renegade Shep likes the idea of Cerberus and many of its people. He thinks TIM is an idiot who needs kicking out of the top job and replaced with someone saner, either Shep himself or Miranda. Hopefully in ME3 the entire organisation won't be portrayed as a cardboard cutout villain.
#200
Posté 10 janvier 2012 - 08:47
Lotion Soronarr
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Luc0s wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Luc0s wrote..
Morality is subjective.
Depends whom you ask.
I know there are people who believe that morality is objective, but the evidence points towards the contrary. Morality is subjective.
What evidence?
Thinking differentely about moraltiy doesn't mean it is different.
objective/universeal/true morality does not mean that everyone must agree on it. It means that there is only one truth, regardless if anyone recognizes it or not.
