169 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerxes52]

He's a politician (and an especially slimy one at that), I don't want him standing directly behind me without my kinetic barriers up.

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

I dunno how good Bhelen was at getting things done without violence or the threat thereof. Never read Discworld, though. Cool.

Bhelen is tricky, because he certainly does mix things up with an application of force. But also trickery and deceit without killing people.


Venitari is the best tyrant in modern literature, because he's a very strong proponent of democracy's premise of One Man, One Vote. He is the Man, and he has the Vote.

He put a scam artist in charge of fixing the city's banks. Apparently the only difference is that you're trying to trick the money into the vault this time.

As far as the British guy goes, perhaps you mean Malcolm Tucker, from The Thick of It and In the Loop? Not the PM, and not "awhile ago" (Season 4 of The Thick of It starts filming next year squeee), but absolutely amoral, Magnificent Bastard, and whatnot. And In the Loop was basically Tucker organizing UN support for an imaginary version of the 2003 Iraq war.

Fairly sure what I'm thinking of ended back in the 90's.

I agree. Castlereagh, Metternich, and Kato Takaaki are all excellent non-American examples. I'd also suggest Bismarck, because he defies such easy categorizations as "authoritarian" (one of his sobriquets was "the White Revolutionary") and at any rate his post-1866 program was objectively a Good Thing for European peace, stability, the standard of living, German political freedom (except, I suppose, for Socialists) and whatnot.

Exactly. Exceptional politicians are rare, but that's true of any exceptional population. If they were common, it wouldn't be exceptional. Western politics is replete with examples of major things getting done by people talking with, not killing or dethroning, their rivals.

While it is true that politicians need coercive abilities to force concessions, modern media confuses 'leverage' with 'political infighting' or 'authoritarian tendencies.' They turn what can be positive-sum games into zero or even negative sum competitions.

[BlueMagitek]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lovecraft is so overrated.

LOL Cthulhu XD!!!!!!


Anyway.

Udina had your back in ME1. When the Council screamed at your recklessness for freeing the rachni queen, or called you a genocidal monster, he defended you.

When they were ranting and raving at your desecration and destruction of a Prothean ruin... they defended you.

When the Council called you insane after Virmire... he defended you.

Then, one time, he dares to not take your side (for your own and humanity's good) and now he's a villain.

Koothulu :innocent:

If you mess with the player, the player hates you, regardless of your actions up to that point.  That's just kind of how they roll. ~_^

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

If you mess with the player, the player hates you, regardless of your actions up to that point.  That's just kind of how they roll. ~_^

I know. The players in this game tend to have oversized egos and an inflated sense of importance that they extend to their characters. They're part of the appeal, I suppose. It's why they play Paragon.

To be fair, it's not like Bioware has done anything but support that. Any game that goes into the start of it with 'you're very, very special' and fails to give a foil of equal caliber will give players an inclination towards omnipotence.

When it comes down to it, Shepard never has been humbled. No major, unnecessary mistake: no overreach, no personal failure, nothing that can be said to be Shepard's fault. Virmire? Both other teams couldn't hold their own, while you could. Arrival? No other choice. The crew abduction on the Normandy? Shepard wasn't even there. There hasn't been an enemy Shepard couldn't make run away. There hasn't even been an argument of note in which Shepard was shown to be wrong.

Being largely infallible, and without a foil to make Shepard fail, it shouldn't be surprised that players think the nature of other characters revolves around their treatment of Shepard.

[BlueMagitek]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I know. The players in this game tend to have oversized egos and an inflated sense of importance that they extend to their characters. They're part of the appeal, I suppose. It's why they play Paragon.

Well, Shepard is pretty good at his job.  And because there isn't a choice that ends in a game over (outside of Morinth), you can't really be in the wrong, despite one choice being more logical than another.  And Bioware did make it too easy sometimes (the gas grenades not only knock out colonists, but kill the Creepers too, for example). 

Dean_the_Young wrote...
To be fair, it's not like Bioware has
done anything but support that. Any game that goes into the start of it
with 'you're very, very special' and fails to give a foil of equal
caliber will give players an inclination towards omnipotence.

When
it comes down to it, Shepard never has been humbled. No major,
unnecessary mistake: no overreach, no personal failure, nothing that can
be said to be Shepard's fault. Virmire? Both other teams couldn't hold
their own, while you could. Arrival? No other choice. The crew abduction
on the Normandy? Shepard wasn't even there. There hasn't been an enemy
Shepard couldn't make run away. There hasn't even been an argument of
note in which Shepard was shown to be wrong.

Being largely
infallible, and without a foil to make Shepard fail, it shouldn't be
surprised that players think the nature of other characters revolves
around their treatment of Shepard.

Well that isn't entirely true; Sole Survivor Shepard has some mistakes, and there was Balak (yes, I know, I know). 
That one Asari on the Citadel (the one who Thane takes out) does
manipulate Shepard, Shepard gets taken advantage of by the Consort, used
by Hackett, used by TIM.

But you are right, Shepard is mostly infalliable unless you purposely choose the "lesser" option.

[DxWill10]

Gaseous Shepard wrote...

Udina can either fight at my side or get crushed under my heel! But he will NOT stand in my way!!

/thread

[Grey34]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

This is off-topic, but I'd just like to tell you I'm very glad you spelled "Cthulhu" correctly. Most don't.

Fan of Lovecraft.

Lovecraft is so overrated.

LOL Cthulhu XD!!!!!!


Anyway.

Udina had your back in ME1. When the Council screamed at your recklessness for freeing the rachni queen, or called you a genocidal monster, he defended you.

When they were ranting and raving at your desecration and destruction of a Prothean ruin... he defended you.

When the Council called you insane after Virmire... he defended you.

Then, one time, he dares to not take your side (for your own and humanity's good) and now he's a villain.

 

how did he defend Shepard on any of those things  i haven't played the game for long time but i don't remember ever really defend  Shepard at all, oh except for the whole "anti human bull thing"

[Dean_the_Young]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well that isn't entirely true; Sole Survivor Shepard has some mistakes,

What mistakes?

Sole Survivor suffered loss, but 'it was your fault' was never part of the narrative.

and there was Balak (yes, I know, I know). 

If you know, you'd know it's not really.

That one Asari on the Citadel (the one who Thane takes out) does
manipulate Shepard, Shepard gets taken advantage of by the Consort, used
by Hackett, used by TIM.

None of those are 'mistakes', though: the Asari politicians' sister really was a danger to be dealt with, the Consort's 'advantage' is mutually beneficial to you, and Hackett and TIM are both people Shepard voluntarily works with.

But you are right, Shepard is mostly infalliable unless you purposely choose the "lesser" option.

Even then those are by and large treated as 'necessary' and proper. And then don't get mentioned again.

[BlueMagitek]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What mistakes?

Sole Survivor suffered loss, but 'it was your fault' was never part of the narrative.
If you know, you'd know it's not really.

None of those are 'mistakes', though: the Asari politicians' sister really was a danger to be dealt with, the Consort's 'advantage' is mutually beneficial to you, and Hackett and TIM are both people Shepard voluntarily works with.

Even then those are by and large treated as 'necessary' and proper. And then don't get mentioned again.

I thought Shepard was in some sort of position of leadership as SS, if not then I'm just plain wrong. ~_^

Balak was a potential one up to the leak. 

Not mistakes, you're right, but they are manipulations.

Well, sacrificing the DA is mentioned a number of times, but that's about it, you're right.

[sonsofanarchy10]

makes you wonder how the illusive man knew where you were when you crashed in ME2. I have a feeling Udina is behind all of that and I think they are good close friends. Can't wait to use a thermal clip on the both of them!

[ttchip]

sonsofanarchy10 wrote...

makes you wonder how the illusive man knew where you were when you crashed in ME2. I have a feeling Udina is behind all of that and I think they are good close friends. Can't wait to use a thermal clip on the both of them!

i thought that was covered by dlc + novels/comics?!

[Blacklash93]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

This is off-topic, but I'd just like to tell you I'm very glad you spelled "Cthulhu" correctly. Most don't.

Fan of Lovecraft.

Lovecraft is so overrated.

LOL Cthulhu XD!!!!!!


Anyway.

Udina had your back in ME1. When the Council screamed at your recklessness for freeing the rachni queen, or called you a genocidal monster, he defended you.

When they were ranting and raving at your desecration and destruction of a Prothean ruin... he defended you.

When the Council called you insane after Virmire... he defended you.

Then, one time, he dares to not take your side (for your own and humanity's good) and now he's a villain.

He only defended you because you were humanity's poster-boy for the Spectres.

And if you're looking to get mad at someone for taking away a character you like, blame whoever is responsible in the story. Not the writers.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 12 janvier 2012 - 08:21 .

[Haresusa]

ttchip wrote...

sonsofanarchy10 wrote...

makes you wonder how the illusive man knew where you were when you crashed in ME2. I have a feeling Udina is behind all of that and I think they are good close friends. Can't wait to use a thermal clip on the both of them!

i thought that was covered by dlc + novels/comics?!

SPOILERS FOR NOVELS/COMICS
SPOILERS
Yep, the Shadow Broker found the body, was about to give it to the Collectors when Liara saved your body and gave it to Cerberus.
SPOILERS

Modifié par Haresusa, 12 janvier 2012 - 08:37 .

[sonsofanarchy10]

ah... yea haven't read the books... guess I should give a game novel a chance after all

[SirBoomstick]

Luc0s wrote...

Yes, Udina will have 'ur back. 

I agree.

[Time Victim]

Take a good hard look at Udina. Is that a trustworthy face?

[SirBoomstick]

Time Victim wrote...

Take a good hard look at Udina. Is that a trustworthy face?

"Trust me, look at my face!"