623 réponses à ce sujet

[Am1vf]

Ringo12 wrote...
...

Another thing I hope Bioware looks at are Deus Ex persuasion system. Really great and since DA2 doesn't even have a coercion skill it would definitely add a lot.

This, seriously. There are many thinks bioware could look at Human Revolution, more than Skyrim and TW2, in mu opinion, since Bioware games have more in common with it. But specially the persuasion system in HR, it is beautiful.

Imagine if blood magic, the way the "apostitute" in the Rose explained it, would work somehow like the CASIE implants.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 13 janvier 2012 - 01:17 .

[Yrkoon]

Ringo12 wrote...
Are the DA2 fanatics still saying Witcher 2 is sexist? It's like games aren't allowed to show a realistic world yet a book, movie or tv show is fine.

Yeah, I don't get (and never did)  the "sexist" argument for Witcher 2.  Just about all the women in the game are politically significant/Powerful Individuals that quite literally pull the world's strings (many Are Sorcereses who work directly with Kings and Emperors and are seen as Earth-shakingly powerful. More so than Geralt) others are described, in game, as the Deadly elites (Roche describes Ves as the best member of his Blue Stripes). Then we've got a whole race, no, make that 2 whole races of people who declare Saskia the Dragon Slayer as their ruler.

Even the Game's two Brothel Maddams have overbearing, strong personalities and don't take crap from anyone, including Geralt.

So where are people seeing this sexism?   Oh wait, is it because the game forces you to be a heterosexual Male Mutant? If that's your argument, then you've got nothing. None of us ever called Tomb Raider "sexist" even though it forces you to be a chick.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 13 janvier 2012 - 01:34 .

[Am1vf]

Yrkoon wrote...

...

I think it might be more about how males and females are represented, the important females are all sexy and the males, well...

I don't think it is sexist, that is oversimplifying things, I would say that they could use more feminine views in the develoment.

edit: but I don't really know what I'm talking about, so feel free to ignore me if you wish.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 13 janvier 2012 - 01:38 .

[Masako52]

Yrkoon wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...
Are the DA2 fanatics still saying Witcher 2 is sexist? It's like games aren't allowed to show a realistic world yet a book, movie or tv show is fine.

Yeah, I don't get (and never did)  the "sexist" argument for Witcher 2.  Just about all the women in the game are politically significant/Powerful Individuals that quite literally pull the world's strings (many Are Sorcereses who work directly with Kings and Emperors and are seen as Earth-shakingly powerful. More so than Geralt) others are described, in game, as the Deadly elites (Roche describes Ves as the best member of his Blue Stripes). Then we've got a whole race, no, make that 2 whole races of people who declare Saskia the Dragon Slayer as their ruler.

Even the Game's two Brothel Maddams have overbearing, strong personalities and don't take crap from anyone, including Geralt.

So where are people seeing this sexism?   Oh wait, is it because the game forces you to be a heterosexual Male Mutant? If that's your argument, then you've got nothing. None of us ever called Tomb Raider "sexist" even though it forces you to be a chick.

If a woman says she thinks a certain game might be sexist... your best course of action is to listen to her why. Sorry to say, but lots of men don't realize something is sexist. It's not your fault, you're men, you've never had to experience being a woman. And a woman can certainly give an unfair opinion, but chances are, women see things that men don't notice or take for granted. So please just be sensitive about sexist claims.

I've been gaming all my life, and video games have always been perceived to be a male dominated thing. Even though these days, I think the number of men and women gamers is much closer. But I still am bothered in principle by women always dressed "sexy", for example. How many women in action games are wearing as much clothing as men? Yeah... it's not that being sexy is a bad thing, it's that female characters ALWAYS have to be sexy to appeal to a male audience. So if that sort of thing is bothering women, well, women have the right to be irritated by it.

Just giving one example, is all. (and I don't think having a male protagonist is sexist, obviously, and would agree that it's an unfair critique. But most games -especially in the genres I like - do have male protagonists, and when it stops being about individual games and starts being about every single game, that's when things start to get a little annoying.)

PS - you can't really be sexist toward men. Tomb Raider having a female protagonist isn't really a good argument anyway, since it was marketed toward a male audience.

Sorry that this is getting off topic.

[Costin_Razvan]

Witcher 2 on Insane was the most challenging thing I've ever had in a RPG. Dark Mode, what the **** is Dark Mode lol?

[casadechrisso]

Masako52 wrote...

If a woman says she thinks a certain game might be sexist... your best course of action is to listen to her why. Sorry to say, but lots of men don't realize something is sexist. It's not your fault, you're men, you've never had to experience being a woman. And a woman can certainly give an unfair opinion, but chances are, women see things that men don't notice or take for granted. So please just be sensitive about sexist claims.

I've been gaming all my life, and video games have always been perceived to be a male dominated thing. Even though these days, I think the number of men and women gamers is much closer. But I still am bothered in principle by women always dressed "sexy", for example. How many women in action games are wearing as much clothing as men? Yeah... it's not that being sexy is a bad thing, it's that female characters ALWAYS have to be sexy to appeal to a male audience. So if that sort of thing is bothering women, well, women have the right to be irritated by it.

Sorry that this is getting off topic.

I understand this very much, and I don't think that males in general don't get the idea. You make valid points, but don't think it's only you who's bothered by it. I don't like oversexed females in games at all, I always prefer believable characters who come over like real, natural persons. But I also have to say that the Witcher does very well on that end - at least as much as I'm able to judge without having gotten far in TW2 yet. Again Triss comes as my prime example. She's certainly not bad looking, but she comes over as a very strong, self-assured woman with her own head, she's not overstyled and doesn't look like a photoshopped model, and her clothing is actually fantastic: Click  (I love the armor conversion for Skyrim and would like to have it in NWN2 too).

Another example in defense of my own gender would be that one of the most famous game characters ever seems to be Alyx from Half Life, a girl that regulary wins all the votes from male gamers and hardly fits into any sexy stereotype.

Now compare these women to Miranda from Mass Effect and her bodysuit. The only thing I really rememeber from Mass Effect 2 and Miranda is constantly looking at her arse in cutscenes, Bioware even left a hint of a camel... err, I won't use the word, but yeah... in. So yeah, in general I'd call Bioware's characters even more stylized.

The worst example though are clearly MMORPGs, and there again JRPGs. That's where things get really ridiculous. So yeah, my point, if you compare the Witcher to the great bulk of modern games, I think it's actually one of the tamest and most realistic examples. It's just that you actually have sex in that game, while MMORPGs are all about having the shortest skirts and chainmail bikinis, yet stay on a teen-friendly level of roleplay (or rather, none at all, but anyway).

Now something you might really not like to hear, but it's something that bothers me as well and I don't say it to counter your point: A lot of female players bring this thing oin themselves. It might sound like a generalization, but in many multiplayer games I played or screenshots I saw many female players actually seem to prefer more ridiculous clothing than hormone-driven males playing female chars would ever dare to try on. Of course there are again other examples, I guess all those "huge boob" mods on the nexus sites aren't developed for female players, but still... many female youngsters are simply used to the overhyped anime style and like that goth lolita image, and apparently are just fine with wearing sexy dresses in their games.
I don't even want to blame them, to each their own, but I think in modern games sexy outfits are by far not only made for male players to have something to drool over. And I, personally, find natural characters much more interesting anyway.

Anyway, I'm rambling again...  <_<

Modifié par casadechrisso, 13 janvier 2012 - 02:44 .

[Il Divo]

Masako52 wrote...

I've been gaming all my life, and video games have always been perceived to be a male dominated thing. Even though these days, I think the number of men and women gamers is much closer. But I still am bothered in principle by women always dressed "sexy", for example. How many women in action games are wearing as much clothing as men? Yeah... it's not that being sexy is a bad thing, it's that female characters ALWAYS have to be sexy to appeal to a male audience. So if that sort of thing is bothering women, well, women have the right to be irritated by it.

I think this extends to the larger issue of why we expect every character we interact with to be attractive, which we tend to see in most movies and games, unless the individual is intended as a person to dislike. Everyone might disagree with what is attractive, but it's clear, especially with Bioware games, to always design love interests which at first glance might appeal to the opposite sex. We don't see LIs who are fat or deformed, for example.

Great example, right here: http://games.ign.com.../1216144p1.html

I sympathize with Ken and think Bioshock Infinite is looking to be an incredible game. But let's take his claim seriously for a moment: if Elizabeth is more than her body, as are many other female protagonists, why must they always be attractive? You can argue that's just how they chose to make them look, but it's pretty interesting to consider how many are designed in this way, versus other, less appealing, physical characteristics. I'm not certain that's something we'll ever escape, going back to the adage that "sex sells".

[Pzykozis]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Witcher 2 on Insane was the most challenging thing I've ever had in a RPG. Dark Mode, what the **** is Dark Mode lol?

Supposedly as hard as Insane (never played insane but loved dark) but without the "hardcore" ness of Insanity as in you can save it and die and not lose the character. Once the game is understood Wticher 2 isn't that hard, I found it better than Dark souls which whilst I loved Demons I found Dark more inclined towards cheapness and some bad choices when it came to some encounter designs and the like.

Dark souls isn't that hard either though, I mean I can understand why it's considered hard but, I found that rather than being hard it just overly punishes some playstyles in comparison to others, and it's poorly explained "leveling" or "building" or whateer you want to call soul level advancement is one of the problems with this, if you build for a knighty character or if you go with pure magic the game is pretty easy. If you make a hybrid and play like that you'll suffer for it. For knights the game is simply a matter of standing infront of the enemy hitting your shield and when they rebound cause your shield is too strong for them you hit them and because of high stability your guard doesn't break even if they wail on you, even against boss monsters and the like, it becomes block, hit, block, hit.

If I'm honest I found DA2 on nightmare with no losses harder in the tutorial section i.e. the sibling death bit than I did with Dark Souls, even against Gwyn, since greatshield folks are fairly poorly treated by Gwyn's encounter. But then that's mostly because it's not a matter of playing the game well in so much as it's partially luck based.

Hardest game ever (and in line with DA2's tutorial just x1000), possibly Final Fantasy Mystic Quest or well it's normally just known as Mystic Quest.. why is it hard? Because the first fight you have in the game is against a boss, you have no abilities and a finite amount of healing potions, he hits very hard and you miss a lot. I believe that, that fight you're more likely to lose than win. Of course after that its fairly easy, but that first fight can switch from managing it to impossible in one single attack.

[casadechrisso]

Oh, I could as well ask "Why did Alistair had to have that totally anachronistic 21th century boy hairstyle? And what about Kaidan Alenko in Mass Effect?" Answer: "To make it clear from the very beginning they are the main female romance option". And it works, count the "Ooooooh Alistair is schooooo schweet" posts and fanfic... Seriously, it's not only girls who have to face the prettiness of characters of their gender, times are changing and males become anorexic too.

Modifié par casadechrisso, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:03 .

[Schratty]

Masako52 wrote...
PS - you can't really be sexist toward men.

LOL

[Chromie]

Masako52 wrote...
 It's not your fault, you're men, 

Woman here and like I said I don't find it sexist. I have to agree with what 
casadechrisso said. The women in Witcher 2 are powerful women. They use everything in their disposal to get what they want and I have to applaud CDProjekt for how well written the characters in the game are.

Modifié par Ringo12, 13 janvier 2012 - 02:59 .

[Yrkoon]

Masako52 wrote...
If a woman says she thinks a certain game might be sexist... your best course of action is to listen to her why. Sorry to say, but lots of men don't realize something is sexist. It's not your fault, you're men, you've never had to experience being a woman. And a woman can certainly give an unfair opinion, but chances are, women see things that men don't notice or take for granted. So please just be sensitive about sexist claims.

Ok, do you really need to start off your post with this presumptious drivel?   As a  sentient Human being, I'll be sensitive to something that deserves my sensitivities.   And that includes actual sexism when I see it.    I don't need someone else's help on the matter.

Masako52 wrote...
I've been gaming all my life, and video games have always been perceived to be a male dominated thing. Even though these days, I think the number of men and women gamers is much closer. But I still am bothered in principle by women always dressed "sexy", for example. How many women in action games are wearing as much clothing as men?

How about:  Almost all of them.  The Conan Look  is used  so often in games that it's become cliche.      And Conan wears nothing but a loin cloth.

And you're  sidestepping  The Witcher 2.  Do the women dress more scantily than the men in the witcher 2?     No.  They certainly  don't in  my copy.

Yeah... it's not that being sexy is a bad thing, 

You're right.  it's not.   Ever.    And no rational person on earth would claim that something is sexist just because it's portrayed as  sexy.   So why even bring it up?

female characters ALWAYS have to be sexy to appeal to a male audience. So if that sort of thing is bothering women, well, women have the right to be irritated by it.

Right.  You're stating obvious, "in general" things.  And I'd agree with you, if the topic was "sexism in our society/media/world".    But it isn't.    We are  discussing The witcher 2, and that being the case, your argument doesn't apply.     In The Witcher 2 we've got something else going on  entirely.  We've got Brothels consisting of nothing but fat, Freckle-faced  prostitutes who   ALL wear the butt-ugliest non-sexy  granny clothes you'll ever see on a woman.   Prostitutes!  The very manifestation of  "using sex to appeal to  males".  But on the other hand,  we've got the significant characters that the game is actually about.  There's a  Triss Marigold for every Iorveth..  There's Roche, and then there's  Phileppa Eilhart.  All four are  deliberately sexy.  They're also male and female respectively.

The question is:  Is the Witcher 2 Sexist?  The answer is an obvious...  no?      Or at least  It  doesn't fit  into any of  the scenariors/descriptors  that you just posted.

  

PS - you can't really be sexist toward men. Tomb Raider having a female protagonist isn't really a good argument anyway, since it was marketed toward a male audience.

What?


 Tomb Raider uses a  female protagonist,  But it's not  sexist because  it's marketed towards men.  Ok, but  But on the other hand,  The Witcher 2 is sexist, because it's got a male protagonist and the game is marketed towards men....?


LOL  So basically your argument is:   If it's  marketed to men then it's sexist, unless it has a female protagonist, then it's not.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:41 .

[Pzykozis]

Masako52 wrote...
PS - you can't really be sexist toward men.

It sometimes unnerves me to wonder if people actually believe this.

I don't understand any of the prejudices because I just see people, I do sometimes wonder if by self segregation and clinging onto some sort of division between people, people create this problem for themselves in general. Though i imagine this particular statement will be misconstrued but alas.

[Il Divo]

Schratty wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
PS - you can't really be sexist toward men.

LOL

Eh, this is one of those little technical distinctions that can lead to arguments becoming petty. If I remember right, sexism requires backing from some power structure or institution. I usually see that brought up whenever we men describe something as sexist. Technically it's not sexist against men but "discriminatory against men". It doesn't really help for our purposes, since the content of what we're describing remains the same: content is put out which offends our gender.

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:02 .

[Gotholhorakh]

I don't like overly sexualised characters, and I certainly have truck with demeaning objectification but I don't see the issue with sexy. . Fantasy characters tend to look fabulous and/or outlandish, that's why you can fight a battle in a pair of fur underpants and little else if you want and still have armour stats.

I guess it's where an individual draws that line, and we have to respect
the perceptions of women who feel they are being discriminated against to a certain extent.

One thing I like about (sorry to mention it, but) Skyrim is that the women don't all prance about pouting, they're not made up to impress the viewer, they have't all just had their eyebrows done and they don't look fastidiously clean. They look like real people from the setting.

However, if there were clearly identified characters in it, I'd expect them to look (in the marketing and the game) either pleasant or interesting. People like looking at stuff they like looking at, and more importantly they like buying it.

If there's a little beauty and sexiness in there to sell the game, well as long as it isn't demeaning what is that but intelligent production/marketing?

Schratty wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
PS - you can't really be sexist toward men.

LOL

Don't LOL, it's quite simple. If you're sexist towards men it doesn't count because the rules are different according to their gender.

Discrimination will never be beaten if we just go around making the rules the same for everyone.

Il Divo wrote...
Eh,
this is one of those little technical distinctions that can lead
to arguments becoming petty. If I remember right, sexism requires
backing from some power structure or institution. I usually see that
brought up whenever we men describe something as sexist. Technically
it's not sexist against men but "discriminatory against men". It doesn't
really help for our purposes, since the content of what we're
describing remains the same: content is put out which offends our
gender.

One of those cynical and intellectually dishonest technical distinctions, and one some schools of thought have come up with in circle-jerk style and declared to be definitive.

As it happens, not only is there penty of sexism towards women left, there is plenty of this "you-can't-call-it-sexism-men-don't-count" in the other direction, some of which can be shown through demonstrable lack of equitable treatment by the authorities/under the law (meeting every conceivable definition of sexism) WRT male victims of rape, domestic violence, people who dare to have same-sex relationships and be male, custody of children and the enforcement of life-long gender roles from the 1950s on (specifically) men against their will, under cultures and even legal frameworks that, with the other hand, expressly forbid the same thing happening to women.

It's beyond the scope of this post but there are many interesting examples. Ultimately there is no stomach in modern society for equitable treatment of the sexes, only skewing things in one direction or the other in a never-ending polar cycle of inequality.

On which note of positivity re: the doomedness of human nature, I'll stop posting off-topic.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:44 .

[Schratty]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
One thing I like about (sorry to mention it, but) Skyrim is that the women don't all prance about pouting, they're not made up like pole dancers, and they don't look fastidiously clean. They look like real people from the setting.

I agree.
And mods allow a player to adjust this according to his/her preferences. Which is also nice, and something I like about Skyrim: (alleged) mod community support. *continues waiting for the Creation Kit release*

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Don't LOL, it's quite simple. If you're sexist towards men it doesn't count because the rules are different according to their gender.

I had no idea that being female entitled me to say inflammatory things against men and have it be completely permissible. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. *runs off to go try out her b!tchin' new power*

[casadechrisso]

.. how about getting a bit more on topic again? I agree that the sexism thing is getting old, but it's not that it's out of the world either just because this is the 21st century. In these modern times a lot of things go right back to medieval standards (fundamentalism, anyone?) and a lot of reactionary old standards still exist in nicer clothes. Sexism from women towards men exists too, just for the record, and no, by giving us back what we deserve things won't get any better.

But I'd rather discuss this with games in mind again, because I'd hate to see this topic derail (I rambled way too much in it and am interested in more OT posts just to let it go) =)

Edit: Ack, too late, we ARE on topic again already!

Modifié par casadechrisso, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:34 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

I just can't believe BW fans can find TW2 to be sexist based on appearance of the characters when BW games, the ones that apparently advocate equality, have the most skimpy dressed character next to JRPGs.

And the characters who may seem sexualized in The Witcher actually have a reason to. The actual lore of The Witcher tells of Sorceresses who often change their physical appearance to become as physically attractive as possible. This ultimately serves larger purposes other than vanity, like manipulation.

You guys just have to give it up. The game is not in the least bit "sexist" or "misogynistic".

[John Epler]

Alright, this has drifted almost entirely off-topic. Let's pull it back to discussion more related to DA2, thank you.

[Gotholhorakh]

simfamSP wrote...
You can, but I don't think we care...? But you CAN demasculinize men hehe xD By the way, this sexism in video games arguement is getting... well old? We are in the 21st century! Or are we still keeping wives in to cook and clean whilst we slouch about complaining about everything.. why don't we go to the next level! RACISM! Because games with white protagonists must obviously have something against other races... <_< Meh...I don't think it matters, someone will obviously come and verbally rape me.

Well <_< quite often some idiot takes it there, don't they?

I'm not going there if it does go there, because the last time I had read posts by some... "person" publicly calling BioWare, and half of this community, of being racists, I found it  bit depressing.

JohnEpler wrote...

Alright, this has drifted almost entirely off-topic. Let's pull it back to discussion more related to DA2, thank you.

Righty ho - fair point, I think.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:47 .

[LobselVith8]

casadechrisso wrote...

Which brings me to Skyrim.

If there's one thing Bioware should really not look at it's Bethesda's writing, and the above mentioned superhero stuff. Seriously, I enjoyed Skyrim a lot in the beginning, but when I was made leader of a dozen guilds, including being named archmage even though my character can barely cast a cantrip, I stopped playing. Skyrim's writing and that superhero thing annoys me to no end, and it's really nothing anyone should take an example of.

I don't really think it's "superhero" to have a protagonist who can be proactive. The protagonist can stop murder attempts if he acts quickly enough, he can investigate murders, he can rise to power in the different Holds, he can make decisions that provide different outcomes, and he can handle certain situations in different ways. As for being a member of different guilds - if you don't think it's in-character that your protagonist would become a member of different organizations, then you don't have to join them. The narrative provides the opportunity for your protagonist to join them, but it isn't a necessity.

casadechrisso wrote...

Bethesda's games always suffered from sub-par dialogues and storylines and the companions are an insult to any RPer because they are lifeless bots. You can easily blame the open world design and say "you can't expect better writing in such a game", but Obsidian proved the opposite in New Vegas, with enjoyable sidequest and great companions (still like Felicia Day as Veronica much more than Talis!). Sure, the plot still lacks, but it's a vast improvement over the standard Bethesda ware.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here about storylines and dialogue - especially with the release of Dragon Age II. Just look at the treatment of the schism between the mages and templars in comparison to the dichotomy established between the Stormcloaks and the Legion, especially when we see how Tullius and Ulfric are handled if either leader becomes an antagonist - flawed men of imperfect groups who don't devolve into an absurd monstrosity or a possessed villain out of Devil May Cry. In contrast, every mage antagonist was a ridiculous mockery of stupidity in Kirkwall, and the templar antagonists were no different as little more than sadists with no real personality. The narrative does a very, very poor job of giving the protagonist any valid reason to side with either side when the player is choosing between one group of caricatures over another.

As for companions, I'd agree that they should have been fleshed out more - but Bethesda does seem to listen to the fans and implement changes (as they did with the leveling system when people complained about the 5+5+5 leveling system of Oblivion), so I would trust them to genuinely address these concerns as opposed to Bioware, where we were told by Mike Laidlaw that the problem with the "significance of choice" would be addressed, and received two following story DLCs where choice, once again, didn't matter.

casadechrisso wrote...

What Bethesda really does good again is the love for detail, and comparing Skyrim's junk laying around in the world being useable is the total opposite to Dragon Age 2's or Mass Effect's loveless loot nobody cares about.
Also, it's one of the few games where NPCs actually react to looting their houses! Hell, give me that. Not much to say about general world design, screenshots speak for themselves. But all that doesn't make up for a good story.

I thought the story in Skyrim was pretty good myself, especially with the inclusion of philosophical characters like Paarthurnax.

[casadechrisso]

I was actually not talking about the main storyline, but about the detail in storytelling and dialogues. The main plot is average RPG stuff, nothing exiting, but surely not worse than Mass Effect's or DA's main plots. Fallout 3 had a decent main plot too. Where Bethesda really disappointed me every time was the smaller things like sidequests and companions. They put all that love for detail into world design, but then stop completely when it comes to immersive dialogues etc. and stay on an average MMO level of story depht. I was totally traumatized by Clover in F3, I spent hours getting my Karma all the way down only to recruit that girl because she sounded so interesting, and then... the usual 5 ooc commands. BLEH!

[Joy Divison]

How to say this without being too cynical?

Devs are saying they are learning from Skyrim bc/ Skyrim sold lots of games and has been applauded as a good game. Of course they are going to say that.

This does NOT mean they aren't learning from TW2. Had TW2 sold as many copies as Skyrim, I'm sure we would read reports of how the devs are inspired by this or that from TW2.

RPGs have been around for over thirty years. Why such basic things that have already been done and shown to be successful gaming elements have to be "learned" every 5 years or so is a mystery to me...

[Il Divo]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I thought the story in Skyrim was pretty good myself, especially with the inclusion of philosophical characters like
Paarthurnax.

I personally thought it was one of the worse I've experienced in TES gaming, which admittedly isn't saying very much. Paarthurnax didn't strike me as being remotely philosophical, particularly, or even an enjoyable character, especially in comparison to characters like Kreia in KotOR 2, who delves into systems of philosophy. The fact that he kept reverting to the Dragon Tongue didn't help matters. It eventually became tiresome, more than anything else.

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:10 .