623 réponses à ce sujet

[John Epler]

simfamSP wrote...

What I think a lot of people misunderstand (including me) is to why are you looking at sources of inspiration? Bioware have been making the best games since Baldur's gate, all you have to do is look at yourselves.

But granted, I'm not part of the group that ignorantly thinks that by looking at Skyrim your going to make an open world RPG, that's just ludicrous. Nor do I understand the major principles of game design. But by your example, it's a clear conclusion no? When people have been screaming 'more DA:O' 'more BG' 'more...etc...' it's clear that what they want is more of you guys and gals at Bioware. Though I'm guessing your understand that :-) and you certainly are. There is no harm in looking at other games because the Bioware formula could use a Beth touch (NPCs that react to you for example.)

Well, here's an example. When looking at Skyrim, it's obvious that the open world approach appeals to a lot of people. Yet what, specifically, is it about that style of game that people like? Personally, I'd argue that a lot of it comes down to the open world allowing for the creation of a highly immersive experience - it's the feeling that you're in a 'real world', with everything that entails. So then, the question becomes, how can you achieve something similar in a more linear, BioWare-style game? And there are certainly things that can be done without taking away from the things that we are, generally, known for.

As to why we look elsewhere instead of just at our own games, well, we do look at our own games. We look at everything we've ever done and pick it apart. While I understand there's a persistent belief among some forum members that we're convinced of our own infallibility, I doubt you'll find anyone who's more critical (and note that I'm saying critical rather than insulting) of any product than the people who've worked on it. We know every flaw, and we know how we've tried to address them.

But we're certainly not going to suggest that there is nothing we can learn from other games. There are things that other companies have done better than we have. And, of course, there are lessons to be learned insofar as what not to do, but every developer has something that they wish they'd done differently. I know I would've handled at least a few major scenes in DA2 differently in hind sight. But still, I think it's worth at least looking at what everyone else in the industry is doing and seeing what lessons we can apply to our own projects.

I apologize for rambling a bit towards the end. Getting a little tired, but still awake due to too much coffee.

[Dominus]

So then, the question becomes, how can you achieve something similar in a more linear, BioWare-style game?

Aye, I wouldn't expect to see Dragon Age III within a so-and-so number of square miles in real-world space. There are certain philosophical elements that will always be retained within most BioWare titles, and there's going to be bits and pieces within the industry that you can add/tweak to whatever design's being created for said game.

[Masako52]

JohnEpler wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I don't think your approaches overlap at all, as the games are so ridiculously different they may aswell be different genres.

I suggest you look at that pesky TW2 that doesn't represent equal rights for everyone. Sure it's realistic in it's representation of Medieval equality, but please don't let that deter you. I'm sure you guys can find someway to incorporate every little population niche out there while still being inspired by it.

And that's the prerogative of The Witcher 2. They've chosen to go for a realistic view of gender politics in that particular period in history, and I certainly don't think it's any less valid of an approach - for many, this somewhat more 'real world' approach has a lot of appeal. And I'm glad! The more variety out there, the more likely that everyone will find something to their taste.

However, that particular goal has never been something we've ever shown much interest in, so it seems rather silly to chide us for not succeeding at something we've never made any suggestion that we were attempting, doesn't it? It's been rather clear since the beginning that inclusivity regardless of gender or sexual orientation is significantly higher on our list of priorities than accurately simulating medieval Europe.

This has been something that I really have appreciated about the direction of Bioware games. I do believe that the Dragon Age series does show real discrimination, but it does so in more subtle ways. For example, I think though Dragon Age Origins showed undeniably some sexist politics/behavior through the plot, they were relatively minor - instead, discrimination takes a fantasy approach. Elves and mages face the brunt of this type of storytelling, and in this way very real social discrimination is portrayed as in the spotlight, but without placing women and gay people as the victims. Frankly, Thedas isn't medieval Europe. There's certainly merit in emulating our history, but if I may say, fantasy gives you freedom - in my case as a woman, it's nice to see Dragon Age 2 featuring women that are not constantly belittled and put down because of their gender. And so on.

I think it's great if the DA team is looking for inspiration in other games. But I like the things that Bioware has done in the past, and hope that those kinds of elements aren't going to be jeopardized (nor other titles merely copied). Still, the evolution of any product ought to include looking at what works and doesn't work, while still being unique with creativity. Skyrim is a good game, but pardon me for saying I don't think it's the best game.

[PaulSX]

Zkyire wrote...

As much as I love TW2 and Skyrim, I have to say:

The devs don't need to look to other franchises for how to make a good next installment for the Dragon Age series.

They already have a good game called 'Dragon Age Origins'.

I do not think it's a good idea to make a game identical to another one. DA3 should bring some good features in DAO back, but making a game like Origins? I hope not.

[Ponendus]

JohnEpler wrote...

So then, the question becomes, how can you achieve something similar in a more linear, BioWare-style game? And there are certainly things that can be done without taking away from the things that we are, generally, known for.

I believe you lot can do anything Mr Epler. My fear is that somewhere along the way you forget the bit bolded above. I don't give two hoots if you think open world (-ishness?) is what you guys think will work, but please don't lose your 'BioWare-ness'. It is my greatest fear.

Bethesda has a lot going for them, but they aint got nothin' on you lot.

[Lintanis]

Just let Bioware,Bethesda and CD Projekt do what they do best and you will have 3 great games to play instead of 3 trying to be the same as each other .   I only get to have 2 of those 3 but im still happy 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

JohnEpler wrote...

It's been rather clear since the beginning that inclusivity regardless of gender or sexual orientation is significantly higher on our list of priorities than accurately simulating medieval Europe.

While I whole-heartedly agree that DA2's world is not TW2's world and has its own lore where matters of gender equality, law, magic, and shapeshifting dragons are concerned, please don't tell me that inclusivity is true for the whole of Thedas.

DA:O did have snippets of lore about, eg. women bearing arms in Antiva being unthinkable, and that there are some people who think homosexuality is wrong (implied by Zevran). Some areas have arranged marriages to the opposite sex only. Vaughan will abduct a female City Elf in her Origin along with her bridal party (all female) with intentions of rape, but he will merely knock out a male.

Also, no qunari warriors with breasts (yet).

I don't want Dragon Age to be The Witcher where it comes to being pseudo 'real world'. But I don't want Dragon Age to treat exclusivity like it's a bad thing either. I'd be terribly disappointed if single PC could acquire and succeed at every quest, join every organisation (if only as an honourary member) and sleep with any seducable NPC regardless of species, gender and class. Sometimes not succeeding or being accepted because of what you are, or winning only by virtue of what you've made your character, can be rewarding.

[DreamwareStudio]

scyphozoa wrote...

TW2 has sold like 300k units, Skyrim has sold 10million+

Don't get your hopes up.

Those are 300K in PC sales.  Digital download sales are not included and that's where the majority of the Witcher sales come from.  From what I read (forget where) TW 2 has sold over 1M.

Of course, that doesn't compare to Skyrim's sales, but then nothing really does.

[byzantine horse]

Whatever ideas Bioware take from The Witcher 2, I hope they don't take the technobabble.

You now the convos with Triss before you fight the Kayran? Where they talk about DNA, genetic mutations and what not as if we were in the 21st century? That broke the game for me. Then and there I slowly grew from enjoying the game to despising it. That coupled with having to hit every enemy 50 times with your sword before they die even on easy difficulty was completely game breaking for me. No, the game wasn't hard, not at all. Just roll around and hit the enemy sometimes. But the combat was boring, tedious, overly stressful and most of all detracted from the experience.

Don't take science-babble and enemies being able to have their heads chopped of 13 times before they die in Dragon Age 3, please, whatever you do don't.

[HiroVoid]

google_calasade wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

TW2 has sold like 300k units, Skyrim has sold 10million+

Don't get your hopes up.

Those are 300K in PC sales.  Digital download sales are not included and that's where the majority of the Witcher sales come from.  From what I read (forget where) TW 2 has sold over 1M.

Of course, that doesn't compare to Skyrim's sales, but then nothing really does.

Once TW series starts moving to consoles as well, it'll probably get a big boost to sales as well.

@JohnEpler I would probably say having NPCS around towns and villages actually moving around and feeling like they're part of the world rather than just being in it would be a good start.  Basically, program them to have their own lives rather than just being part of the scenery.  I feel that's at least one of the major immersions.  I don't know if it would be possible to include with everything else, but I think cutting out on some cinematic scenes for that would be a good exchange.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 12 janvier 2012 - 12:35 .

[DreamwareStudio]

HiroVoid wrote...

@JohnEpler I would probably say having NPCS around towns and villages actually moving around and feeling like they're part of the world rather than just being in it would be a good start.  Basically, program them to have their own lives rather than just being part of the scenery.  I feel that's at least one of the major immersions.  I don't know if it would be possible to include with everything else, but I think cutting out on some cinematic scenes for that would be a good exchange.

Good idea, HiroVoid.

Personally, the surrounding ambience plays a huge factor in immersion.  The closer the surroundings are to lifelike, the easier it is for me to take the game seriously and dive into it.  Of course, there's a million facets to immersion, but ambience is a big one.

[RPGamer13]

Bad idea, we need more cutscenes. Radiata Stories had plenty of cutscenes and still had a full schedule for every recruitable person, there were over 100 of them each with their own schedule and there was actually a time clock. So from say, midnight to 3am, one NPC might be at the bar, but come 4am they're back at their place asleep. So, they don't need to cut back on cutscenes. For DA, all they'd have to do is make some non-critical NPCs walk around in a set path.

We also need flashier magic and attack animations and if there's going to be cooldowns, then remove the mana and stamina. Or vice-versa, we don't need both.

Also, bring back exploding bodies and make an option in the options menu: High (frequency), Normal (frequency), None. I'd play the entire game where the bodies explode every time they die. For DAII, that was my favorite part until it got nerfed,

HiroVoid wrote...

Once TW series starts moving to consoles as well, it'll probably get a big boost to sales as well.

Of which, the Xbox 360 version of Witcher 2 is coming out this year and they added some stuff that the article I read made it sound like it will be exclusive to the console version.

[Dokarqt]

RPGamer13 wrote...

We also need flashier magic and attack animations and if there's going to be cooldowns, then remove the mana and stamina. Or vice-versa, we don't need both.

Also, bring back exploding bodies and make an option in the options menu: High (frequency), Normal (frequency), None. I'd play the entire game where the bodies explode every time they die. For DAII, that was my favorite part until it got nerfed,

I like how you're basically diametrically opposed to the pervading opinions on these boards. Unless of course you're being ironic. Anyways, kudos to you for making things interesting!

[Yrkoon]

DiebytheSword wrote...


If I want to play the Witcher, I'll play that. If I want to play Skyrim I'll play that. Its not bad to copy a good idea now and again, but people honestly sound like they want one game to be more like another game because moar! Unless you are speaking from the soapbox of a fanboy, in which case your argument kind of makes sense because you are hoplessly wishing that other unique experiences be more like the one you had elsewhere.

Or... unless you're speaking from a game company's perspective, and you see another company putting out a game   that outsells yours.    Good Business sense dictates that you  study that game and try to determine why it was so successful, why it captured  a larger share of the market  than yours did.   If you succeed,  then your next step is to   incorporate  your findings into your own  games so that they sell better.   That's how whole gaming Genres  came to be.  Personally, I applaud this practice.  I  routinely find myself wishing that other games would have Bioware's Party system and   witty companion banter, and that Biowares games would have other games' open, explorable worlds, etc.

Of course you could try to do the complete opposite, and be a   'risky trend setter' instead, ignoring all your competators and just trying to come up with new formulas yourself and then praying that the public falls in love with them.  But the chances of financial success  from doing that are remarkably low, and most companies won't take  such a huge risk.    Usually, if they're feeling risky  they'll  simply take another game's proven-successful  formula, make some  modest changes  to it, then pat themselves on the back for their  "innovations".    And usually that's good enough.  That's called Evolution, btw.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 janvier 2012 - 03:30 .

[DreamwareStudio]

RPGamer13 wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Once TW series starts moving to consoles as well, it'll probably get a big boost to sales as well.

Of which, the Xbox 360 version of Witcher 2 is coming out this year and they added some stuff that the article I read made it sound like it will be exclusive to the console version.

Not exclusive to the console version.  They will also be offering the same to PC users (for free to those who've bought the game for PC).  They've added the extra content as a boon to all players.  CD Projekt, from what I've seen, doesn't pander to specific audiences, and is remarkably fair.

Such fairness has garnered them many very loyal customers.

Modifié par google_calasade, 12 janvier 2012 - 03:33 .

[DreamwareStudio]

simfamSP wrote...

This says otherwise

That article estimates close to 5M in bootlegs for TW 2.  Piracy seriously pisses me off, but doubly so when it involves a game developer who goes over and beyond the call of duty for their customers.

Let me say that regardless of game, platform, or developer...

Gamers who steal games are shooting all gamers right in the foot.  Piracy only hurts the chances of quality games being released while also causing the prices to raise either by companies trying to make up what they're losing or what the developers spend in that god-awful DRM software.

If you pirate, stop it.  NOW.

If you know of someone who pirates, tell them to buy a legal copy.  If they refuse, beat them over the damn head.

[Dokarqt]

google_calasade wrote...

That article estimates close to 5M in bootlegs for TW 2.  Piracy seriously pisses me off, but doubly so when it involves a game developer who goes over and beyond the call of duty for their customers.

Let me say that regardless of game, platform, or developer...

Gamers who steal games are shooting all gamers right in the foot.  Piracy only hurts the chances of quality games being released while also causing the prices to raise either by companies trying to make up what they're losing or what the developers spend in that god-awful DRM software.

If you pirate, stop it.  NOW.

If you know of someone who pirates, tell them to buy a legal copy.  If they refuse, beat them over the damn head.

I agree completely. I know a guy (not really a friend, more like an aquaintance) who pirates every single game, even games he really likes and have been waiting a long time for to be released. This is in spite of him having a regular job and an okey economy and so on, I yell at him for being a douchebag everytime we bring it up:p

[csfteeeer]

google_calasade wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

@JohnEpler I would probably say having NPCS around towns and villages actually moving around and feeling like they're part of the world rather than just being in it would be a good start.  Basically, program them to have their own lives rather than just being part of the scenery.  I feel that's at least one of the major immersions.  I don't know if it would be possible to include with everything else, but I think cutting out on some cinematic scenes for that would be a good exchange.

Good idea, HiroVoid.

Personally, the surrounding ambience plays a huge factor in immersion.  The closer the surroundings are to lifelike, the easier it is for me to take the game seriously and dive into it.  Of course, there's a million facets to immersion, but ambience is a big one.

THIS.

One of my biggest problems with DA2,DAO, and even BW in general, is that their worlds just feel so.... stiff.

Let me explain.

In BW, their maps are either very bland(which is the case in DA2), or filled with people that never move and just stand there waiting for you to pass so they can spit a one liner at you(which is the case in DAO).

it doesn't feel alive, there is little to no ambient sound, people aren't partying in a tavern, kids aren't running around idly in the street just playing, no one is just... you know, living.

This is something i can usually forgive if a game is beautiful looking(as is the with Skyrim, which has nothing but a bunch of people walking around,  clashing at each other like morons), or if it's not really necessary most of the time throughout the game(like in DAO, where you visited places that SHOULD be lifeless, like the circle).

but DA2 has neither; it's not beautiful enough, and you're always in a city, which means that it should be alive, but it isn't, it's bare, lifeless, and silent.

in TW2, however, i often just stopped moving, not only to marvel at the graphics, but to see how people just had their lives, doing jobs, kids playing.... it was highly entertaining, IMO.

for me, immersion and atmosphere is a huge deal in RPGs.
there are other ways to make me overlook that(like amazing characters, which DAO did, with the special mention of a particular red haired bard who has a place in my sig), but even then, having it can actually SAVE a game for me, or elevate my already big opinion of it to a hole new level.

I Wish BW would just use that technic, along with what they're known for, obviously.

@OP.

yeah, Personally, if BW needed to "Check aggresively" any game, it should be TW2, particularly because it's much more akin to BW's style than Skyrim is.

IMO, the things that BW Needs to take from it is:

-Atmosphere and immersive aspect of it's world(like i already said before), and maybe it's engine(though i highly doubt that, sadly)
-Importance of Choices.
-a few Cues from it's combat system.

[DreamwareStudio]

Dokarqt wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

That article estimates close to 5M in bootlegs for TW 2.  Piracy seriously pisses me off, but doubly so when it involves a game developer who goes over and beyond the call of duty for their customers.

Let me say that regardless of game, platform, or developer...

Gamers who steal games are shooting all gamers right in the foot.  Piracy only hurts the chances of quality games being released while also causing the prices to raise either by companies trying to make up what they're losing or what the developers spend in that god-awful DRM software.

If you pirate, stop it.  NOW.

If you know of someone who pirates, tell them to buy a legal copy.  If they refuse, beat them over the damn head.

I agree completely. I know a guy (not really a friend, more like an aquaintance) who pirates every single game, even games he really likes and have been waiting a long time for to be released. This is in spite of him having a regular job and an okey economy and so on, I yell at him for being a douchebag everytime we bring it up:p

I've stopped being friends with people like that.  Seriously.  We have them to thank for SOPA.  It was only  a matter of time before something like this was introduced, and unless piracy lessens, something like SOPA will be brought into effect sooner or later.

[DreamwareStudio]

simfamSP wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

This says otherwise

That article estimates close to 5M in bootlegs for TW 2.  Piracy seriously pisses me off, but doubly so when it involves a game developer who goes over and beyond the call of duty for their customers.

Let me say that regardless of game, platform, or developer...

Gamers who steal games are shooting all gamers right in the foot.  Piracy only hurts the chances of quality games being released while also causing the prices to raise either by companies trying to make up what they're losing or what the developers spend in that god-awful DRM software.

If you pirate, stop it.  NOW.

If you know of someone who pirates, tell them to buy a legal copy.  If they refuse, beat them over the damn head.

I was focusing more on the over 1M part but yeah the piracy stuff...just I hate pirates, and I hate it even more when my friends do it...I mean whats the point?

Look at SOPA! The worst thing that could possibly happen in the internet and for what? PIRACY!

CDPR goes to EXTREME measures for DRM free games, most of their sales are from GOG... maybe it's time to make a mirror to steam... I mean if everygame could have DRM like steam then the world would be a better place.

DRM sucks, but steam makes it bareable

The sad thing is even Steam can be hacked and pirated.  Though I would prefer to buy physical copies, if it meant putting an end to piracy, I would be all for digital downloads.

Modifié par google_calasade, 12 janvier 2012 - 05:08 .

[DreamwareStudio]

csfteeeer wrote...


THIS.

One of my biggest problems with DA2,DAO, and even BW in general, is that their worlds just feel so.... stiff.

Let me explain.

In BW, their maps are either very bland(which is the case in DA2), or filled with people that never move and just stand there waiting for you to pass so they can spit a one liner at you(which is the case in DAO).

it doesn't feel alive, there is little to no ambient sound, people aren't partying in a tavern, kids aren't running around idly in the street just playing, no one is just... you know, living.

This is something i can usually forgive if a game is beautiful looking(as is the with Skyrim, which has nothing but a bunch of people walking around,  clashing at each other like morons), or if it's not really necessary most of the time throughout the game(like in DAO, where you visited places that SHOULD be lifeless, like the circle).

but DA2 has neither; it's not beautiful enough, and you're always in a city, which means that it should be alive, but it isn't, it's bare, lifeless, and silent.

in TW2, however, i often just stopped moving, not only to marvel at the graphics, but to see how people just had their lives, doing jobs, kids playing.... it was highly entertaining, IMO.

for me, immersion and atmosphere is a huge deal in RPGs.
there are other ways to make me overlook that(like amazing characters, which DAO did, with the special mention of a particular red haired bard who has a place in my sig), but even then, having it can actually SAVE a game for me, or elevate my already big opinion of it to a hole new level.

I Wish BW would just use that technic, along with what they're known for, obviously.

@OP.

yeah, Personally, if BW needed to "Check aggresively" any game, it should be TW2, particularly because it's much more akin to BW's style than Skyrim is.

IMO, the things that BW Needs to take from it is:

-Atmosphere and immersive aspect of it's world(like i already said before), and maybe it's engine(though i highly doubt that, sadly)
-Importance of Choices.
-a few Cues from it's combat system.

The first time I played the Witcher (1) I was astounded by the kids playing in the streets, all the movement, the purpose of extraneous characters.  That was like quicksand for me.   The same thing with the Witcher 2.  If Bioware were to borrow anything from any developer, liveliness would be my first choice.

[John Epler]

HiroVoid wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

TW2 has sold like 300k units, Skyrim has sold 10million+

Don't get your hopes up.

Those are 300K in PC sales.  Digital download sales are not included and that's where the majority of the Witcher sales come from.  From what I read (forget where) TW 2 has sold over 1M.

Of course, that doesn't compare to Skyrim's sales, but then nothing really does.

Once TW series starts moving to consoles as well, it'll probably get a big boost to sales as well.

@JohnEpler I would probably say having NPCS around towns and villages actually moving around and feeling like they're part of the world rather than just being in it would be a good start.  Basically, program them to have their own lives rather than just being part of the scenery.  I feel that's at least one of the major immersions.  I don't know if it would be possible to include with everything else, but I think cutting out on some cinematic scenes for that would be a good exchange.

And more intelligent and 'life like' ambient behaviour is definitely something we're looking into for future projects. Giving NPCs their own schedules and lives, within certain boundaries, is one of the best ways to make a world feel 'alive'. Even if it's as simple as saying 'when event X happens within Y number of meters, do Z', and then having several sets of those behaviour - if they react to outside stimulus it helps lessen the feeling that you're playing a game that's divided into distinct parts, such as exploration, combat, etc.

We have a lot of ideas on how to improve this aspect in future titles. There's not a lot I can say about it regarding specifics, of course - but we're certainly aware that it's a high priority for a lot of people.