623 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Yrkoon wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
 Then you can't do a side quest, you have to join the collage just to complete a quest that has nothing to do with the Collage.

So you join the College to do said quest and never return once it's completed. You only joined just to access information easily.

And out of curiosity, which quest? The Azura one?

Definitely not the Azura's Star quest, as you don't  have to  ever set foot in the Mage college to do any aspect of it.

He might be talking about the Forbidden Legends  (Galdur's Amulet) quest, which you can't complete the last part of  until you join the college.  But no... That can't be it either.    Because Even a Brief perusal of the  Story behind that quest makes it Obvious that it has EVERYTHING to do with Mages, and therefore, should, in fact, involve the college.

But where were we?  Oh  yeah.  Nipples.  No wait, Inventories.

Forbidden Legends yes and since you don't have to complete it to advance anything in the College it does not belong to the faction.

It's not part of the  Faction's Quest line.     It simply involves the college because Gaulder  was the Archmage of the Skyrim's High King.  The quest is  ABOUT Mages.   Would you rather the Thieves guild handle it instead?

Why does it need a guild? Why can't it be by itself? You get the quest by reading a flippen book that you can find anywhere. Had it been given by a College member or by a uniuqe book only found in the College I would agree, but it does not. Thus it's poor design.

[Yrkoon]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The quest with Jyrik Gauldurson in Saarthal? I still have to investigate more dealing with that quest, but all one needs to do is join the College, do said part of quest, and then never return to the College.

Granted I'll admit one shouldn't be forced to join the College just to access this part of that particular quest, but it's not like you were forced to stay either.

But what if you can't do teh spell to get in? Then you have to invest in magic and use gold.

You don't need a spell to get in.  You can Shout.  It will impress the "door guard" and she will send you right in.

[TEWR]

Oh that! The woman on the bridge! Yea Yrkoon's right. Shouting suffices to get inside.

[Anomaly-]

Mr.House wrote...
Why does it need a guild? Why can't it be by itself? You get the quest by reading a flippen book that you can find anywhere. Had it been given by a College member or by a uniuqe book only found in the College I would agree, but it does not. Thus it's poor design.

Personally, I prefer that design. I find the idea that everything involving a certain group or faction will be contained entirely within it pretty uninteresting and unrealistic. It introduces you to new areas of the game, and the logic there is sound. You need access to the guild's resources for what you seek, and that is only available to members (I haven't actually done that quest, that's just an example of what I'm talking about). That's perfectly reasonable and actually more believable to me. Life is full of instances like that. Have you never had to register on a site you didn't plan to just to download a file?

It's not like they were making you commit to the whole questline, and you really don't need any magical expertise.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:14 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

A limited inventory that can be expanded serves two purposes:

1) Backpacks provide an avenue of progression for the player that encourages exploration of the stores
Finding and purchasing the backpacks make your life easier, which allow for a sense of accomplishment when you find them and can afford them. In a very real way your "team" has just gotten better, in that they can carry more stuff from dungeons. Also, seeking that progression (after establishing backpacks as a desirable, and very affordable thing, in the first store in Ostagar, for instance) causes players to look in stores in new places they visit to see if there's another one. In doing so, they're exposed to some of the rare, powerful loot lurking in those stores, ideally sitting there as aspirational items to be acquired later.

Encouraging the player to visit merchants is a good point I hadn't considered.

I'm not so sure about progression, but as you said YMMV. I find looking for backpacks/storage as a chore rather than achievement (probably because I'm not one of the players who bothers buying armour or weapons. I'm mostly: in store, check for backpack and plot items, out. Exception was DA:O; because I liked reading item descriptions I stopped to smell the roses so to speak).

2) A limited inventory provides an impetus to return to store locations and note potentially upgraded stock. Some people noticed that new stuff appeared in the stores at certain points of DAO and DAII. If you never had to sell, you might get no exposure to the evoloving stock.

Granted, although putting plot/gift items in the stores did this just as well, as did their armour upgrades (in DA2 at least). I'm sure not everyone bothered with companion items, but still...

We went with the more abstract "space" concept for the inventory rather than weight so as not to penalize mage-heavy parties (who presumably would have lower collective strength than warriors, but don't deserve to have to leave a bunch of loot lying around, since multi-mages should be viable).

This is understandable, although strength-increasing or encumbrance-lowering items/spells/skills could counter that. As an example (not proposal) an Arcane Warrior skill could allow the PC to use the Magic score as the strength score. Such items would also promote looking to merchants, and skills would be as desirable as the progression you mentioned earlier.

(I'm not arguing that DA's system should change from a list, btw. I just like discussing. )

We went for non-inventory-tetris because in early prototypes that proved to be a LOT of shuffling if your bags were full and you needed to move things between party members. I tend to feel inventory tetris works far better with one "grid" than multiple grids.

All I can say to that is "Thank the Maker!" I hate inventory tetris with a passion...even single grid ones.

Ultima 7 was my favourite inventory system, but I don't expect the love of individual weight-based completely dynamic layouts in which one could add additional containers to be appealing to everyone. Especially people who can't organise gear if the fate of the world depended on it )

That's the thinking behind it, anyway. YMMV, but we have put a fair amount of thought into it.

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

[Mr.House]

What happens if you can't shout then?

[Yrkoon]

Mr.House wrote...
 Why does it need a guild? Why can't it be by itself?

Because it's an ancient political legend involving royalty and Magic.  Two things   that are extremely difficult come  by via any other means than the source itself.    Even The Book that starts the quest contains just enough information to vaguely lead you to the first area, which you can, in fact, do without setting foot in the College.

You might as well ask  "why do I have to join the Dark Brotherhood if I want Shadowmere"?

[Yrkoon]

Mr.House wrote...

What happens if you can't shout then?

Then  they will ask you to cast either healing, flames, or icebolt(?), all of which  you  start the game with.

There is no way to "fail" the door test..

Modifié par Yrkoon, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:18 .

[Mr.House]

Yrkoon wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

What happens if you can't shout then?

Then  they will ask you to cast either healing, flames, or icebolt(?), all of which  you  start the game with.

There is no way to "fail" the door test..

I was asked to conjure.

[TEWR]

Can't you also say "I don't know any of those spells" and the woman will sell you a tome dealing with that spell?

[Addai]

Am1_vf wrote...
Aside from that, when I face choices in typical Bethesda games it reminds me of the qun: "Do it or do not" "You have the choice not no be, or follow the qun" (not exact quotes of the qun). The choices within quests are scarce, wich is wierd because in a open world game it should be easier to make branching consequences I think.

Why would you think that?  I would say it's the opposite- it's easier to account for branching outcomes in a game where the player is led by the hand and forced down tunnels never to return.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Can't you also say "I don't know any of those spells" and the woman will sell you a tome dealing with that spell?

What happens if you can't buy the tome?

Modifié par Mr.House, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:04 .

[Am1vf]

Addai67 wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
Aside from that, when I face choices in typical Bethesda games it reminds me of the qun: "Do it or do not" "You have the choice not no be, or follow the qun" (not exact quotes of the qun). The choices within quests are scarce, wich is wierd because in a open world game it should be easier to make branching consequences I think.

Why would you think that?  I would say it's the opposite- it's easier to account for branching outcomes in a game where the player is led by the hand and forced down tunnels never to return.

Because for it to be "branching" and actually having consecuences you would have to make diferent tunnels for each coice, while in an open world like Bethesda's you can just replace a city with a radioactive crater and have some npcs mention it from time to time.

That said, I've never worked in the videogame industry so my personal experience in the field is just some attempts at creating new adventures in the NWN editor and some others (writing branching dialogues is fun).

[Il Divo]

Addai67 wrote...

That is about roleplay freedom.  They don't limit player freedom because of completionists.  Another reason I love them.  If it breaks your roleplay, don't do it- bottom line- and don't take away other players' ability to mold their stories as they see fit by imposing class rigidity on the game.

But this only accounts for scenarios where your character has absolutely no interest in the College of Winterhold,  ignoring the in-between scenarios: someone decent in magic or only selectively interested in certain aspects (such as Restoration). My character can still be interested in helping the College of Winterhold and still be completely unsuited to magic and, by extension, the Arch-Mage position. And the world needs to be internally consistent, regardless of role-playing concepts. The role-player shouldn't be the one responsible to keep a coherent setting. Sure, he/she shouldn't go out of character. But the game needs to do its part in keeping things together. 

I personally think that if it breaks the game's internal logic, ultimately the game shouldn't allow it.
 

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:15 .

[DreamwareStudio]

Atakuma wrote...

google_calasade wrote...
Yeah, ****, I hate to admit this because of the love I have for the BG series and wishing for the Bioware of old, but, yeah, I would say the stories behind the Witcher games are superior.  They are more intricate, subtle, and decidedly darker (i.e., more adult).

Eh, to me they are only better because they tell a singular story, instead of piecing together a bunch of largely unrelated ones like both dragon age games.

Assassins of Kings was actually a direct sequel from the Witcher's end, and a direct result of what happened in the Witcher combined with things that were mentioned in the Witcher.  Yes, they are two separate tales, but tied together nicely.  Frankly, each game should tell a story of its own, and if those stories piece together in the end to create a larger tapestry, that's even better.

So I guess deciding which is superior depends on how the stories are pieced together.  If, in the end, what you end up with is a cohesive tale from different parts, then that's good.  If, in the end, what you end up with is a disjointed, loosely connected tale then it's bad.  Bottom line is, on its own DA:O's story is cliche` but entertaining (IMO).  The DA 2 story is just not at all well done (again, IMO).

I think you either need to have each tale connected or each game with its own independent storyline, otherwise what you end up with is kind of like sludge.  It's no different than writing a trilogy of novels with each novel independent but dependent upon the others or writing an anthology of novelettes that happen over the course of a few years but in their entirety tell the story of a nobleman's fall into the status of warrior-slave and his subsequent quest for freedom.  Both of these I'm doing.  I could, of course, put a bunch of short stories together that are loosely connected but there's no gain from that other than to have them in between one cover/under one title.  Doing so, however, does not make those short stories a more cohesive story or more meaningful.

[DreamwareStudio]

Ponendus wrote...

I hope they do take away the beautiful graphics from TW2. That was certainly a triumph.

I hope they do not take away from it how to create the most unlikeable protagonist in RPG history. :-)

Sorry, I just do not get that at all.  What's so unlikable about Geralt?  He's one of the rare true human type of protaganists.  He's not black or white but grey in that he can do much good but he is also tempted to do bad and often does.  What's not to like about that?

It means he's human and possess fraility, thereby making him ultimately more interesting than say a character who never has the option of taking the lower road.

Modifié par google_calasade, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:26 .

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Can't you also say "I don't know any of those spells" and the woman will sell you a tome dealing with that spell?

What happens if you can't buy the tome?

I'm assuming you're not being serious given the emoticon, but... you go out and earn some gold? Tomes don't really cost that much. Under 500 gold I believe. If you've done some looting, you can easily make that much.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:27 .

[Addai]

Il Divo wrote...

But this only accounts for scenarios where your character has absolutely no interest in the College of Winterhold,  ignoring the in-between scenarios: someone decent in magic or only selectively interested in certain aspects (such as Restoration). My character can still be interested in helping the College of Winterhold and still be completely unsuited to magic and, by extension, the Arch-Mage position. And the world needs to be internally consistent, regardless of role-playing concepts. The role-player shouldn't be the one responsible to keep a coherent setting. Sure, he/she shouldn't go out of character. But the game needs to do its part in keeping things together. 

I personally think that if it breaks the game's internal logic, ultimately the game shouldn't allow it.
 

There's nothing inconsistent about the head of the college not being a master wizard.  It's a figurehead position, not even an administrative one.  The Dragonborn herself, being possessive of an inborn type of magic that is a direct gift of the gods, is a strong candidate for it to begin with.

But if it breaks someone's immersion to be involved with the mage guild, they just shouldn't do the quest line.  I'm not sympathetic to calls for more restrictions on player freedom.  Aren't there enough games who are all about that?  Not... naming any names, mind you.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Can't you also say "I don't know any of those spells" and the woman will sell you a tome dealing with that spell?

What happens if you can't buy the tome?

I'm assuming you're not being serious given the emoticon, but... you go out and earn some gold? Tomes don't really cost that much. Under 500 gold I believe. If you've done some looting, you can easily make that much.

But what if you can't find gold?

[Il Divo]

Addai67 wrote...

There's nothing inconsistent about the head of the college not being a master wizard.  It's a figurehead position, not even an administrative one.  The Dragonborn herself, being possessive of an inborn type of magic that is a direct gift of the gods, is a strong candidate for it to begin with.

There's nothing inconsistent about the head of a school for arcane magic having absolutely no magical capability? It certainly sounds like a contradiction.

But if it breaks someone's immersion to be involved with the mage guild, they just shouldn't do the quest line.  I'm not sympathetic to calls for more restrictions on player freedom.  Aren't there enough games who are all about that?  Not... naming any names, mind you.

Role-playing is built on the understanding that you have full control of your character's actions and his actions alone. You don't get control of anyone else's, or the setting. You're not asking for more player freedom. You're asking for the DM to change the world to fit your desires. That's not role-playing, but actively rewriting the world to fit your needs. There's a substantial difference between the errors which DA2 commits and which Skyrim commits.

[TEWR]

Il Divo wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

There's nothing inconsistent about the head of the college not being a master wizard.  It's a figurehead position, not even an administrative one.  The Dragonborn herself, being possessive of an inborn type of magic that is a direct gift of the gods, is a strong candidate for it to begin with.

There's nothing inconsistent about the head of a school for arcane magic having absolutely no magical capability? It certainly sounds like a contradiction.

The same thing could apply to Irving and how weak he is when you take control of him in the Fade to save Connor.

I think that's enough to show that you don't need to be a powerful mage to be the head of a place for mages. Granted they're different games in two different series, but your argument is that only powerful mages should be the head of a place for mages.

And we don't know the extent of Savos Aren's magical aptitude do we?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:41 .

[Il Divo]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


The same thing could apply to Irving and how weak he is when you take control of him in the Fade to save Connor.

I think that's enough to show that you don't need to be a powerful mage to be the head of a place for mages.

You'll have to elaborate. Weak, how? From a gameplay mechanics standpoint?

[DreamwareStudio]

Il Divo wrote...

Role-playing is built on the understanding that you have full control of your character's actions and his actions alone. You don't get control of anyone else's, or the setting. You're not asking for more player freedom. You're asking for the DM to change the world to fit your desires. That's not role-playing, but actively rewriting the world to fit your needs. There's a substantial difference between the errors which DA2 commits and which Skyrim commits.

This is such a consequential point that many developers overlook in an attempt at pandering to the audience for "ease/convenience" of play (or as Mike Laidlaw put it, not letting the world or "sim" get in the way of gameplay).  What they fail to understand is the sim, nay the entire game world itself, is part of the gameplay and the more challenging that makes the game, the better off the game will be.

Modifié par google_calasade, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:43 .

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Can't you also say "I don't know any of those spells" and the woman will sell you a tome dealing with that spell?

What happens if you can't buy the tome?

I'm assuming you're not being serious given the emoticon, but... you go out and earn some gold? Tomes don't really cost that much. Under 500 gold I believe. If you've done some looting, you can easily make that much.

But what if you can't find gold?

Everyone has gold .

[Il Divo]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And we don't know the extent of Savos Aren's magical aptitude do we?

Sure, we don't know. But it's clearly implied that he has exceptional magical abilities in merely being able to survive the Staff of Magnus Dungeon.