294 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Sylvianus wrote...

I stopped taking Merril seriously when she said that  '" demons can be as good as the spirits of joy or of justice, etc.. "

Really ? T___T

That's not what said the lore as well. There is difference between demons / abominations, etc and Spirits.

I do not know if it is a mistake of the writers or if she is that naive and stupid.

Considering she never said what you claimed she said, I think you made the mistake

[alex90c]

nvm bsn formatting sucks

Modifié par alex90c, 12 janvier 2012 - 08:21 .

[John Epler]

Marionetten wrote...

Not everyone hates Big Rigs either.

And all those reviews seem entirely serious, too!

I think I made a point about arguing in good faith earlier in this thread. It's still valid.

[Sylvianus]

What you showed me, only proves she does not know what the hell she says and is completely lost.

Remember the scene in the act 1 when she is using her blood magic. And you will see the words she will deliver, they are equivocal.

So, demons can be as good as spirits of justice and joy, as if it was a good thing ?

But actually good spirits don't exist ?

Yeah Merril.

Actually according to Wynn, good spirits exist, that doesn't mean they can't be dangerous, but I am more inclined to listen to her, she is at least consistent with her thoughts.

[Sylvianus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I stopped taking Merril seriously when she said that  '" demons can be as good as the spirits of joy or of justice, etc.. "

Really ? T___T

That's not what said the lore as well. There is difference between demons / abominations, etc and Spirits.

I do not know if it is a mistake of the writers or if she is that naive and stupid.

Considering she never said what you claimed she said, I think you made the mistake

NO. The bold part is exactly what she said, in my native language. I said the same words. Or then shows me what she says in english at this part.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 12 janvier 2012 - 08:25 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I stopped taking Merril seriously when she said that  '" demons can be as good as the spirits of joy or of justice, etc.. "

Really ? T___T

That's not what said the lore as well. There is difference between demons / abominations, etc and Spirits.

I do not know if it is a mistake of the writers or if she is that naive and stupid.

Considering she never said what you claimed she said, I think you made the mistake

Slyvianus might be thinking of an argument Anders and Merrill have over her refusal to concede to Anders' religious, Andrastian beliefs in how spirits and demons are seperated due to how they responded to the Maker (according to religious docturine). Their conversation:

Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?
Merrill: We’ve never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.
Varric: You can say that again.
Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins—
Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less...

Again, the difference is that Anders' sees it in terms of his Andrastian views, while Merrill doesn't because she's Dalish. However, as I referenced in my prior post, Merrill addresses all spirits as dangerous.

[Great_Horn]

Well, I definitely recommend a second review.

http://www.wired.com...-age-ii-review/

[Marionetten]

JohnEpler wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Not everyone hates Big Rigs either.

And all those reviews seem entirely serious, too!

I think I made a point about arguing in good faith earlier in this thread. It's still valid.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suggest that someone, somewhere managed to wring some enjoyment out of it. I had a friend who absolutely adored Superman 64 despite its countless flaws. I can't say I understand why but I can't really understand why someone would find Dragon Age II enjoyable either having unsuccessfully tried to trudge through it on more than one occassion. I acknowledge that as my own limitation.

And I'm really not sure what qualifies as arguing in good faith here.

[TEWR]

Sylvianus wrote...

What you showed me, only proves she does not know what the hell she says and is completely lost.

Remember the scene in the act 1 when she is using her blood magic. And you will see the words she will deliver, they are equivocal.

So, demons can be as good as spirits of justice and joy, as if it was a good thing ?

She never once said that demons are good. She said they can help. That is hardly equivalent. That's not even on the same level!

Demons can help. Usually to serve their own needs, but this isn't always the case.

The Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads helped the party figure out how they could leave, to which Merrill responds that you can play a demon before you can play it. Torpor helped the party understand more about Feynriel's state of mind, the demons plaguing him, and how to help Feynriel; to which Merrill talks about once again playing a demon before it can play you.

one example of a demon that helped someone without an ulterior motive is the Sloth Demon in the Mage Origin.

But actually good spirits don't exist ?

Yeah Merril.

Actually according to Wynn, good spirits exist, that doesn't mean they can't be dangerous, but I am more inclined to listen to her, she is at least consistent with her thoughts.

Wynne happens to be possessed by a Spirit of Faith. Spirits are devoted to one idea, one concept. And they sometimes take that to the extreme.

What Merrill's talking about is that no spirit is safe to interact with. Anders and Justice showed that spirits are just as dangerous as demons, if not more so due to the commonly held belief that they are harmless.

Anders is clearly talking about how Spirits can be either good or bad. Good implies that they're harmless and no danger can come from interacting with them. Merrill disputes this. Hence why she says that they're akin to humanity. Because there is always a danger in associating with people. Sometimes even good people do horrible things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 janvier 2012 - 08:42 .

[TEWR]

Sylvianus wrote...

NO. The bold part is exactly what she said, in my native language. I said the same words. Or then shows me what she says in english at this part.

Someone's modded game, but the dialogue is the same. Note that the surtitles call it "spirit" and not "Spirit". David Gaider said many moons ago that all denizens of the Fade are spirits, but a differentiation must be made. That differentiation has the safer spirits called Spirits.

And she says it can help. I addressed how demons can help above.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 janvier 2012 - 08:40 .

[Marionetten]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

one example of a demon that helped someone without an ulterior motive is the Sloth Demon in the Mage Origin.

One could easily argue that his motive was becoming top dog without having to lift a finger.

[Sylvianus]

Except that in your video, the player didn't use the renegade line Like I did. " The demon, you mean "

Did you ever choose this line ?

[TEWR]

Marionetten wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

one example of a demon that helped someone without an ulterior motive is the Sloth Demon in the Mage Origin.

One could easily argue that his motive was becoming top dog without having to lift a finger.

The sloth demon in the Mage Origin in DAO? Doubtful. If he had any ulterior motive, it was to help people so that he could just lay around and be lazy.

He said he wanted to be left alone and didn't even try to possess the mage Warden.

[TEWR]

Sylvianus wrote...

Except that in your video, the player didn't use the renegade line Like I did. " The demon, you mean "

Did you ever choose this line ?

Well had you told me which line you selected I could've found the appropriate video. I have chosen that line before, and she didn't say whay you claimed she did in my version of DAII.

I'm fairly certain MahaloVideoGames' walkthrough on youtube had the red line chosen.

EDIT: Nope it didn't. And I'm not going to start a new game just to prove it. I know for a fact that she didn't say that, as I've picked that option numerous times to earn some favor from Anders and Fenris.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 janvier 2012 - 08:49 .

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
What you showed me, only proves she does not know what the hell she says and is completely lost.

Remember the scene in the act 1 when she is using her blood magic. And you will see the words she will deliver, they are equivocal.

So, demons can be as good as spirits of justice and joy, as if it was a good thing ?

If you've read Asunder, you know that a few mages in the book summoned spirits to aid them.  I'm not sure how this case is different.

[Marionetten]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The sloth demon in the Mage Origin in DAO? Doubtful. If he had any ulterior motive, it was to help people so that he could just lay around and be lazy.

He said he wanted to be left alone and didn't even try to possess the mage Warden.

"The sloth demon hides in its forms, a master of shapes and disguises, always in the last place you look... and from its hiding place it spreads its influence."

They're deceivers by nature. Him using the mage warden as a pawn against the more powerful demons makes perfect sense. Especially since sloth demons tend to avoid direct conflict.

[Gunderic]

bleetman wrote...

Facial animations, y'say? I'll just drop this here, then.

(Hooray for the internet, where I can just plug other people's work and save myself the effort of making my own points.)

I'd take that over this, always.

warning: balls.

[thats1evildude]

Once it was revealed that Mouse was a Pride demon, I assumed that Sloth was acting on its behalf. The riddle contest was just a show meant to deflect suspicion about its intentions. You defeated it in a challenge, so it "unwillingly" gave Mouse the knowledge he needed to become a bear. But really, Sloth and Pride were working together.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 janvier 2012 - 09:07 .

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
What you showed me, only proves she does not know what the hell she says and is completely lost.

Remember the scene in the act 1 when she is using her blood magic. And you will see the words she will deliver, they are equivocal.

So, demons can be as good as spirits of justice and joy, as if it was a good thing ?

If you've read Asunder, you know that a few mages in the book summoned spirits to aid them.  I'm not sure how this case is different.

I read what they've done. But they didn't call demons, spirits are different. They aren't evil, they are neutral at wrse, they can hurt you, but it is something else than evil.

Well, also It does not mean that I approve necessarily their actions. To be honest, Dragon age asunder is the first book where I struggle to approve totally what the hero and protagonists do in their action. I thought for example that for Cole, I wasn't at all on the same line.

But to remain on the subject, What bothers me,(  "I'll try to look to find the English sentence to verify if that(s the same of if there is simply a problem with the translation )

is the thought that we can trust the demons, as we can trust the spirits. The demons are only preoccupied by their own desires, and they have their own objectives, even if these seem good in apparence. They can corrupt all what they see that can be corrupted at the end.

A mage should not think they can become their friends or people to be trusted. They are simply useful and must be only controlled. If you are weak, or let feelings affect or alterate your mind, it's over for you.

[Am1vf]

Sylvianus, no, you can't trust demons nor spirits, just like jou can't trust fire to burn only what you want it to burn or water to wet the earth just enough for your crops and not flood the whole valley. Would you say that water is "good" and fire is "evil"? You can use both but you better be carefull.
That is the way I see it and I belive that is the way Merril sees it. Anders disagrees, because he belives in the chantry, andraste an all that.

[hoorayforicecream]

Sylvianus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I stopped taking Merril seriously when she said that  '" demons can be as good as the spirits of joy or of justice, etc.. "

Really ? T___T

That's not what said the lore as well. There is difference between demons / abominations, etc and Spirits.

I do not know if it is a mistake of the writers or if she is that naive and stupid.

Considering she never said what you claimed she said, I think you made the mistake

NO. The bold part is exactly what she said, in my native language. I said the same words. Or then shows me what she says in english at this part.

The exact line in english is:

"Demons are just spirits. Like honor or joy. It's not their fault they are what they are."
Talktable entry #6085715

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The exact line in english is:

"Demons are just spirits. Like honor or joy. It's not their fault they are what they are."
Talktable entry #6085715

Just so it's certain, this is the response given to the aggressive/direct choice?

EDIT: Actually I'm sure this is it. It's similar to what Sylvianus said, but has a different meaning behind it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 janvier 2012 - 09:24 .

[DreGregoire]

jlb524 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
What you showed me, only proves she does not know what the hell she says and is completely lost.

Remember the scene in the act 1 when she is using her blood magic. And you will see the words she will deliver, they are equivocal.

So, demons can be as good as spirits of justice and joy, as if it was a good thing ?

If you've read Asunder, you know that a few mages in the book summoned spirits to aid them.  I'm not sure how this case is different.

In Asunder, they summoned lesser spirits. Spirits that were useful and easily 'controlled' or manipulated or used. I'm not really sure that a Spirit like Justice is equal to the spirit that saved Wynne. Maybe equal isn't what I'm looking for but they are definately different. Justice is more like Valor. The spirit that saved Wynne was a healing spirit. But all three spirits seem bigger (for lack of a better word) than many of the spirits that I remember reading about in Asunder. I would think that Cole is more on the level of Justice and Valor; however, they were spirits of ideas or concepts, and I'm not sure that Cole is of that type. I would love to have the chance to read a more detailed idea of the various spirits/demons.

Is that too spoiler? *sighs*

Modifié par DreGregoire, 12 janvier 2012 - 09:25 .

[jlb524]

How do we even know exactly what Merrill summoned?