294 réponses à ce sujet

[Am1vf]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

yet you can never actually do anything to follow up on that motivation, which contradicts it. That motivation becomes meaningless when the game doesn't actually let him try to make Kirkwall a decent place.

Well, you can be nice to people and bring them the things they have lost, that is a start:P.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Am1_vf wrote...

Gibb_Shepard - You mean the dragonborn thing? I don't think a majority of Eder Scrolls fans would say that it was the core motivation for them or their characters, but I can't say I have any data to prove that.

Regardless of what they think, as a dragonborn, your duty is to defeat the dragons. That is just the storyline of the game, you can't deny that. Your character may have many otehr motivations, but defeating dragons is still the primary one. End of story.

[Gibb_Shepard]

thats1evildude wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

That is something you created, not something the game explicitly states.

Actually, my Diplomatic Hawke says "Let's make Kirkwall a better place for everyone" when other characters click on him. Plus, there's a few instances in dialogue where Hawke says he's fighting to protect the people he cares about.

That is still a motivation you chose for your character. And that's well in good, but without an ultimate goal or motivation that the game explicitly states, we have to let out imagination do the storytelling for us. 

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:35 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

yet you can never actually do anything to follow up on that motivation, which contradicts it. That motivation becomes meaningless when the game doesn't actually let him try to make Kirkwall a decent place.

Oh, I see. Now, I thought that when I agreed to chase down serial killers, mollify angry qunari and rescue people in diestress, I was trying to help the city. But what you're telling me is  that I was just trying to kill a slow Saturday night. Fair enough.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Well if that is Hawke's primary motivation, why doesn't he act on it?

What are you talking about? I'm constantly going out of my way to help people. I frequently refused financial rewards when it meant taking money for a misdeed. I gave money to the poor and I worked to improve conditions at the Bone Pit.

Do I need to build an orphanage by hand or something?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:38 .

[Mclouvins]

Am1_vf wrote...

Gibb_Shepard - You mean the dragonborn thing? I don't think a majority of Eder Scrolls fans would say that it was the core motivation for them or their characters, but I can't say I have any data to prove that.

I think Skyrim's whole marketing strategy disagree's with you but that's just my feeling.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

yet you can never actually do anything to follow up on that motivation, which contradicts it. That motivation becomes meaningless when the game doesn't actually let him try to make Kirkwall a decent place.

Oh, I see. Now, I thought that when I agreed to chase down serial killers, mollify angry qunari and rescue people in diestress, I was trying to do a good thing. But what you're telling me is  that I was just trying to kill a slow Saturday night. Fair enough.

I'm talking about of Hawke's/your own volition. All of these things you describe are him being reactive and aren't really his motivations. They're the motivations of other people dropped on him that he subsequently adopts simply to as you said kill a Saturday night.

If he really wanted to help Kirkwall, he would've had Aveline launch a serious investigation into the serial killer of Kirkwall after The First Sacrifice and reinstated it after finding out what Gascard had to say. Gascard gives enough testimony that there is in fact a serial killer roaming Kirkwall's streets.

There was clearly enough evidence to search that foundry, but in Act II Aveline's dialogue implies that she doesn't treat it as a serious matter.

Hell a simple warning to your mother about the killer -- she'd still be kidnapped though -- would've been enough, as he would've at least been trying to make what he holds dear -- his family which could be considered Kirkwall to him -- safe.

Making Kirkwall a safer place also extends to seeing who is the threat in a respective Hawke's mind to Kirkwall. The Mages, the Templars, the Chantry, or Meredith?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 03:41 .

[TEWR]

Am1_vf wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

yet you can never actually do anything to follow up on that motivation, which contradicts it. That motivation becomes meaningless when the game doesn't actually let him try to make Kirkwall a decent place.

Well, you can be nice to people and bring them the things they have lost, that is a start:P.

They'll just end up losing them again

[Am1vf]

thats1evildude wrote...
 I'm constantly going out of my way to help people. I frequently refused financial rewards when it meant taking money for a misdeed. I gave money to the poor and I worked to improve conditions at the Bone Pit.  Do I need to build an orphanage by hand or something?

No offense, but your nickname desn't fit you;)


Mclouvins - Who cares about what the maketing department says?

[Mclouvins]

Am1_vf wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...
 I'm constantly going out of my way to help people. I frequently refused financial rewards when it meant taking money for a misdeed. I gave money to the poor and I worked to improve conditions at the Bone Pit.  Do I need to build an orphanage by hand or something?

No offense, but your nickname desn't fit you;)


Mclouvins - Who cares about what the maketing department says?

I'm just saying the way they pushed kill dragons a lot of people have to have picked up the game for the express purpose of doing just that, which is tied to the nature of being the dragonborn.

[Am1vf]

Well, if you put it like that yes, but then, from the trailers, what would be to purpose of purchasing DA2? or Origins?

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

All of these things you describe are him being reactive and aren't really his motivations. They're the motivations of other people dropped on him that he subsequently adopts simply to as you said kill a Saturday night.

In my mind, they're the same thing. The viscount says to Hawke "we need you to meet with the Arishok". He agreed to do so because he was well aware of the tensions involving the qunari. The fact that the quest was compulsory was irrelevant.

There were plenty of other problems that Hawke got involved in that he didn't have to.He didn't have to help Feynriel. He didn't have to run into the Deep Roads after three idiot brothers chasing after a lost treasure.He didn't have to help Sebastian confront his family's killers. He did these things out of a desire to help people.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If he really wanted to help Kirkwall, he would've had Aveline launch a serious investigation into the serial killer of Kirkwall after The First Sacrifice and reinstated it after finding out what Gascard had to say. Gascard gives enough testimony that there is in fact a serial killer roaming Kirkwall's streets.

Oh Jesus, this topic is like a bad weed that keeps popping up. Hawke tried his best to involve the authorities in the case, and it wasn't the only crisis on his plate. Leandra herself was not one of Quentin's typical victims — Gascard said he targeted women with few social ties — and Quentin was a powerful blood mage.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:24 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...


In my mind, they're the same thing. The viscount says to Hawke "we need you to meet with the Arishok". He agreed to do so because he was well aware of the tensions involving the qunari. The fact that the quest was compulsory was irrelevant.

There were plenty of other problems that Hawke got involved in that he didn't have to.He didn't have to help Feynriel. He didn't have to run into the Deep Roads after three idiot brothers chasing after a lost treasure.He didn't have to help Sebastian confront his family's killers. He did these things out of a desire to help people.

But ultimately, it's not something that helps Kirkwall be a safer place. Kirkwall being a safer place requires influence and for Hawke to use that influence to actually help Kirkwall's streets. For him to have influence, he also needs to be politically involved and forge alliances in Act I since his goal was to become a noble again. He doesn't. His influence is relatively nonexistent which makes it hard to believe that any other noble would look to him for assistance or want to associate with him.

These quests you talk about are all relatively minor things that don't help Kirkwall's bigger picture. It doesn't help it in the long run and as such your Hawke's motivation doesn't actually exist in the game.

I'd argue that the only instance of him helping Kirkwall actually helping Kirkwall in the long run would be him killing out the night gangs.

Oh Jesus, this topic is like a bad weed that keeps popping up. Hawke tried his best to involve the authorities in the case, and it wasn't the only crisis on his plate.

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the person that originally brought the topic of the serial killer up?

And this particular crisis should've taken precedence. Aveline isn't always traveling with Hawke and she has the entire bloody City Guard with her, and even the friggin' Templars admit Emeric was right.

There's no excuse for an investigation to not have been launched. Absolutely none.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:36 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But ultimately, it's not something that helps Kirkwall be a safer place.

It saves people's lives. That to me is worth something. By saving the innocent and slaying the wicked, I'd like to think I am making a difference, little by little. Kirkwall would be a smoking ruin by the end of Act 2 were it not for Hawke's involvement.

All of this political manuevering you talk about — inserting yourself in the upper echelons of Kirkwall, making alliiances — takes time, especially for a refugee digging his way out of the slums.The city does not have free elections as such, it's and it's not as though you can knock on all the doors in Hightown and announce to the nobles you intend to become one of the politically powerful figures in Kirkwall. What does that even mean, anyway, when it is the templars who are the true power in the city?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the person that originally brought the topic of the serial killer up?

I did, and now I regret it. It's all so pointless. Leandra's death was inevitable.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 janvier 2012 - 04:58 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...


It saves people's lives. That to me is worth something. By saving the innocent and slaying the wicked, I'd like to think I am making a difference, little by little. Kirkwall would be a smoking ruin by the end of Act 2 were it not for Hawke's involvement.

Little by little doesn't mean much. You can take one step forward by helping the little guy find his lost wallet but the nature of the city makes it take five steps back by having people murder other people left and right.

Without doing something that will affect the bigger picture, then Hawke is not helping anyone. He's deluding himself into thinking he's helping the city get better when really he's doing the bare minimum -- if that -- and then getting pissed when it gets worse.

All of this political manuevering you talk about takes time. It's not as though you can knock on all the doors in Hightown and announce to the nobles you intend to become one of the politically powerful figures in Kirkwall, so they better hope on the bandwagon.

Hawke is reputed after his time with Athenril/Meeran to be able to get things done. He has enough competence to get people to enlist his aid.

He could say to the more influential members of Kirkwall's elite that he'd help them if they assist him. He could petition the Viscount for a good word after saving Saemus.

Favor for a favor.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I did, and now I regret it. It's all so pointless. Leandra's death was inevitable.

I'm not saying she shouldn't have died. Just that Hawke should've tried to prevent the serial killer from striking again, only to fail. Which would've made his comment to Leandra of how he failed to protect her even more powerful.

This is a point I've echoed numerous times on the forums in the last few months. Hawke should've been proactive and attempted to prevent something from happening, only to fail to prevent said something from happening.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 05:00 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hawke is reputed after his time with Athenril/Meeran to be able to get things done. He has enough competence to get people to enlist his aid.

He made a name for himself in the criminal underworld. That doesn't equate to political influence. Of all the refugees squatting in Kirkwall, Hawke is just at the top of the ****heap in Act 1.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hawke is reputed after his time with Athenril/Meeran to be able to get things done. He has enough competence to get people to enlist his aid.

He made a name for himself in the criminal underworld. That doesn't equate to political influence. Of all the refugees squatting in Kirkwall, Hawke is just at the top of the ****heap in Act 1.

I think you missed my point. He has made a name for himself in the criminal underworld and is competent at getting things done. The influential elite would thus enlist his aid because of his competence and reliability and he could use the fact that they sought him out to his advantage later on.

"If I do this for you, I need you to back me up later on when I try to get my estate back. And then we can assist each other afterwards."

Remember that Vanard knew about Hawke's history, as did Varric. Vanard is an influential member of Kirkwall's elite and Varric has connections all over town. So Varric could've maybe helped to spread Hawke's reputation at that time to Kirkwall's other elite. After he met Hawke obviously, though there's no reason to think this might not have happened prior to his meeting Hawke.

"Have you heard about this Hawke guy?"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 05:15 .

[Am1vf]

thats1evildude and TheEtherealWriterRedux - I think both of you have valid points there, it is possible to show Hawke's motivation in a number of ways but there are too many moments in wich there is not any actual way of acting according to those motivations. I don't think this discussion is going anywere, sadly.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 13 janvier 2012 - 05:18 .

[NedPepper]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Gibb_Shepard - You mean the dragonborn thing? I don't think a majority of Eder Scrolls fans would say that it was the core motivation for them or their characters, but I can't say I have any data to prove that.

Regardless of what they think, as a dragonborn, your duty is to defeat the dragons. That is just the storyline of the game, you can't deny that. Your character may have many otehr motivations, but defeating dragons is still the primary one. End of story.

Seriously?  You're saying Hawke has no motivations, but the Dragonborn does?  Hawke has a sister in the Circle.  He is a noble.  He is a part of the city.  He can hate mages or love them and influence the game.  Same with the Qunari.  It's smaller and more personal, but there are TONS of core character motivations.  And a heck of a lot more complex than, "must kill dragons."  You can dislike DA 2 for many reasons, (and you obviously do), but to blame it on character motivation and then mention SKYRIM?!?  Kills your argument.

Modifié par nedpepper, 13 janvier 2012 - 05:28 .

[thats1evildude]

I recognize that Hawke is only "putting out fires" in some cases. I see the flaws that are inherent to the system. But change doesn' t simply occur as a result of doing a bunch of favours for Kirkwall's elite.

You know what speaks loudest of all? Piles of money, plus a status. Which is why the Deep Roads expedition is so important, for both the sake of Hawke' s family and the city.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 janvier 2012 - 05:31 .

[NedPepper]

Mclouvins wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...
 I'm constantly going out of my way to help people. I frequently refused financial rewards when it meant taking money for a misdeed. I gave money to the poor and I worked to improve conditions at the Bone Pit.  Do I need to build an orphanage by hand or something?

No offense, but your nickname desn't fit you;)


Mclouvins - Who cares about what the maketing department says?

I'm just saying the way they pushed kill dragons a lot of people have to have picked up the game for the express purpose of doing just that, which is tied to the nature of being the dragonborn.

And I would argue that's a really hollow roleplaying experience.  I mean, if you really want to turn this into DA 2 vs. Skyrim...Skyrim loses for in depth role playing.  It may even be the whole "dumbed down for the masses" argument....you know, the same argument people threw at Dragon Age.2.  Let's at least be consistent.

[TEWR]

nedpepper wrote...

Seriously?  Your saying Hawke has no motivations

Post Act I he doesn't, which is a problem I have with the game.  

Hawke has a sister in the Circle. 

There's no motivation once she's a part of the Circle, though I find this is one of the few times where personal roleplaying definitely should -- and does -- come into play.

I've roleplayed my Rogue and Warrior Hawkes as vowing to protect her even if she's in the Circle by rooting out the Templars that shouldn't be Templars -- like Alrik and other Templars met in Act II -- by any means necessary.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 05:36 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

I recognize that Hawke is only "putting out fires" in some cases. I see the flaws that are inherent to the system. But change doesn' t simply occur as a result of doing a bunch of favours for Kirkwall's elite.

You know what speaks loudest of all? Money, and piles of it.

No, but connections can help. By doing favors for Kirkwall's elite and garnering influence with Kirkwall's elite, he can rely on them down the line to help him make Kirkwall a better place to live.

This is what I'm getting at. A politically savvy Hawke would be able to do these things. Forge alliances, call on them when needed, and eventually rise to a station where he holds considerable influence.

And no, having money isn't enough to simply win back land that is rightfully yours. You need people to vouch for you that you should have that land back again. If Hawke is going to be a noble again, he needs to forge alliances with other nobles. These are the people he will be interacting with.

Remember that the estate was property of the Viscount after the slavers' "departure". So he's banking a lot on good faith that the Viscount will understand their plea.

He's part of an expedition that IIRC was common knowledge around Kirkwall, and IIRC his part in it was also known. So he's investing in an opportunity, which means there is a good chance he will be made rich. So while he doesn't actually have the money, he's basically already gotten it. Since the Blight just ended and the Deep Roads are less crowded with Darkspawn than usual, there's a very good chance he'll succeed.

And you know what, Leandra made her case after they left on the expedition! Not when they returned, but after they left.

So Hawke definitely needed some alliances to back up Leandra's plea.

thats1evildude and TheEtherealWriterRedux - I think both of you have valid points there, it is possible to show Hawke's motivation in a number of ways but there are too many moments in wich there is not any actual way of acting according to those motivations. I don't think this discussion is going anywere, sadly.

Sadly, I think you're right.

Still an interesting discussion to have though.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 06:24 .

[NedPepper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Seriously?  Your saying Hawke has no motivations

Post Act I he doesn't, which is a problem I have with the game.  

Hawke has a sister in the Circle. 

There's no real motivation once she's a part of the Circle, though I find this is one of the few times where roleplaying definitely should -- and does -- come into play.

I've roleplayed my Rogue and Warrior Hawkes as vowing to protect her even if she's in the Circle by rooting out the Templars that shouldn't be Templars -- like Alrik and other Templars met in Act II -- by any means necessary.

I think the key to role playing Dragon Age, and most Bioware games for that matter, is in the personal relationships created between the characters.  And one of the strengths, to me, about Hawke is that he has both a blood family, and a weird little misfit family that he's part of.  From game to game, those relationships are different.  It's more nuanced character creation and role playing, but it's there.

Hawke and be noble and love his family and be a provider and protector.

Hawke can be a smart ass rogue who just likes pushing people's buttons and cares nothing about the concerns of Kirkwall.

Hawke can be a bounty hunter, obsessed and fortune and money and resentful of his family.

Hawke can be mage rebelling against the circle...as either a revolutionary or and Andrastian.

Hawke can be a politcal schemer, manipulating his friends, the mages, the templars, and the Qunari.

There are endless Hawkes.  But it's all in the nuances.  The game is always going to end the same way and the big plot points will always occur...it's how you roleplay the REACTION that makes it work.  I think you can't really expect more out of video game roleplaying.  And again, Dragon Age gives you much more to connect you with your character than a lot of other recent, popular RPGs.  (Skyrim, Deus Ex).  At least in my eyes.

[TEWR]

nedpepper wrote...

[Hawke and be noble and love his family and be a provider and protector.

While you may see it that way, I don't see it in terms of Leandra.

Bethany though I can see it since I roleplayed my Hawkes in a protector way.

Hawke can be a smart ass rogue who just likes pushing people's buttons and cares nothing about the concerns of Kirkwall.

I posted in a thread in the spoiler section that discussed Hawke as an inactive protagonist how this would be an ideal scenario for a Hawke that didn't want to side with the Mages and Templars were those factions able to be sided with in Act II.

Like if you don't side with anyone then, Act III's beginning plays out more or less the same way.

not the sarcastic part, but the fervently neutral and not-giving-a-damn part.

Hawke can be mage rebelling against the circle...as either a revolutionary or and Andrastian.

Hawke can be a politcal schemer, manipulating his friends, the mages, the templars, and the Qunari.

He isn't able to do either of these things, which I've discussed in this thread and the thread I mentioned above.

I'm not trying to put a damper on how you've roleplayed your Hawke, though I probably am. But this is just how I see it.

If the game cannot be played to accomodate these roleplaying personas, then it has failed imo. A Mage Hawke that wants to be a revolutionary would side with the Mage Underground. One that wants to be a Loyalist mage would side with the Chantry and Templars.

And this would be best accomplished during Act II.

I recommend checking out the thread I mentioned to better understand what I'm saying, as I don't want to retype it all out. But you'll see the case I made for this type of Hawke.

A reactive/inactive protagonist does not make for a compelling protagonist for most players. Only a minority -- at least on the forums -- seems to have found that enjoyable.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 janvier 2012 - 06:17 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

nedpepper wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

Gibb_Shepard - You mean the dragonborn thing? I don't think a majority of Eder Scrolls fans would say that it was the core motivation for them or their characters, but I can't say I have any data to prove that.

Regardless of what they think, as a dragonborn, your duty is to defeat the dragons. That is just the storyline of the game, you can't deny that. Your character may have many otehr motivations, but defeating dragons is still the primary one. End of story.

Seriously?  You're saying Hawke has no motivations, but the Dragonborn does?  Hawke has a sister in the Circle.  He is a noble.  He is a part of the city.  He can hate mages or love them and influence the game.  Same with the Qunari.  It's smaller and more personal, but there are TONS of core character motivations.  And a heck of a lot more complex than, "must kill dragons."  You can dislike DA 2 for many reasons, (and you obviously do), but to blame it on character motivation and then mention SKYRIM?!?  Kills your argument.

Listen to me very carefully. What YOU (YOU!) create for Hawke as a motivation is not the same thing (NOT THE SAME THING) as what the game provides. At no point in DA2, save for ACT 1, is there an overarching goal to ultimately achieve. Every other RPG in history has provided the PC such a goal.

YOU can create other motivations for your character. In Act 1 maybe he is also out to free mages for example, or protect his family; but ultimately Hawke is attempting to net wealth (Which can then weave into your other motivations).

Are you seeing the difference here? I can not explain it in any other way. DA2 does not provide a CORE (GAME GIVEN) motivation for Hawke. End of story.