483 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaeliorin]

I have to admit, while the only thing I'd like to see DA take from KOA is the silent protagonist, and maybe the crafting system (I haven't been able to see enough of it to say for sure), I've kind of fallen in love with the demo. It, to me, is open-world action RPG finally done right. The dungeons so far all have interesting things to find (even if it's just a tough boss fight or some interesting lore) and the combat in more than boring spam/hold the mouse button. I'm not saying the game's perfect, but spending more time with the demo (I've played through it about 6 times now) has prompted me to order it (though this is also partially because I've become disenchanted with TOR.)

I think the people that really need to take a look at KOA are Bethesda (mostly in terms of combat design and making dungeons that are interesting.)

Oh...and every fantasy game designer needs to take a look at KOA's doors. I love watching the doors in the dungeons open up.

[LPPrince]

Well, after Bioware's extensive reuse of the same areas in DA2, I think they SURE AS HELL need to look at KoA for inspiration on how to keep things interesting and varied.

[culletron1]

OK so after playing the demo I feel it falls into some of the same traps as DA2

Overly Cartoony looking
Unrealistic combat animations
Combat is too fast paced
Character design is a little to over the top

Thats really all I can comment on. I'll wait for reviews to determine if its worth a go or not as, the things I've listed are big immersion breakers, it can be saved by a good story and deep characters.

[LPPrince]

culletron1 wrote...

OK so after playing the demo I feel it falls into some of the same traps as DA2

Overly Cartoony looking
Unrealistic combat animations
Combat is too fast paced
Character design is a little to over the top

Thats really all I can comment on. I'll wait for reviews to determine if its worth a go or not as, the things I've listed are big immersion breakers, it can be saved by a good story and deep characters.

1. Cartoony? Still not getting it.
2. That I can give you, but that attracts some people and pushes others
3. The combat is supposed to be actiony, so its perfectly paced for what its supposed to be.
4. I don't see the character designs as over the top. This isn't some Beach Volleyball game, hahaha

I guess its down to every person's unique personal interests and opinions.

[Morroian]

Vaeliorin wrote...

I have to admit, while the only thing I'd like to see DA take from KOA is the silent protagonist, and maybe the crafting system (I haven't been able to see enough of it to say for sure), I've kind of fallen in love with the demo. It, to me, is open-world action RPG finally done right. The dungeons so far all have interesting things to find (even if it's just a tough boss fight or some interesting lore) and the combat in more than boring spam/hold the mouse button. I'm not saying the game's perfect, but spending more time with the demo (I've played through it about 6 times now) has prompted me to order it (though this is also partially because I've become disenchanted with TOR.)

I think the people that really need to take a look at KOA are Bethesda (mostly in terms of combat design and making dungeons that are interesting.)

1. Its not exactly open world.
2. The Skyrim dungeons are far more interesting than KOA's because most of them have interesting backstories involved that you follow as you go deeper into the dungeon via diary entries and other documnetation. KOA form what I saw was merely go into dungeon, kill some enemies, get some loot. Skyrim is actually a superb example of how to deliver background info about the world integrated into the game that Bioware could follow.

[DreamwareStudio]

Morroian wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...

I have to admit, while the only thing I'd like to see DA take from KOA is the silent protagonist, and maybe the crafting system (I haven't been able to see enough of it to say for sure), I've kind of fallen in love with the demo. It, to me, is open-world action RPG finally done right. The dungeons so far all have interesting things to find (even if it's just a tough boss fight or some interesting lore) and the combat in more than boring spam/hold the mouse button. I'm not saying the game's perfect, but spending more time with the demo (I've played through it about 6 times now) has prompted me to order it (though this is also partially because I've become disenchanted with TOR.)

I think the people that really need to take a look at KOA are Bethesda (mostly in terms of combat design and making dungeons that are interesting.)

1. Its not exactly open world.
2. The Skyrim dungeons are far more interesting than KOA's because most of them have interesting backstories involved that you follow as you go deeper into the dungeon via diary entries and other documnetation. KOA form what I saw was merely go into dungeon, kill some enemies, get some loot. Skyrim is actually a superb example of how to deliver background info about the world integrated into the game that Bioware could follow.

Very good points re Skyrim dungeons.

Modifié par google_calasade, 20 janvier 2012 - 08:41 .

[Atakuma]

Morroian wrote...
1. Its not exactly open world.
2. The Skyrim dungeons are far more interesting than KOA's because most of them have interesting backstories involved that you follow as you go deeper into the dungeon via diary entries and other documnetation. KOA form what I saw was merely go into dungeon, kill some enemies, get some loot. Skyrim is actually a superb example of how to deliver background info about the world integrated into the game that Bioware could follow.

Bioware has already done the whole find a journal entry in the dungeon thing.

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

...I was told I was an elf through codexes and dialogue, but there was no real visual identity to strike them as being different from the human population. As such, I couldn't get into this mindset of being an elf because I didn't look nor feel the part of one. There is nothing different about them in terms of appearance or even tribal culture for how they should be different.

They have no unique clothing. They have no unique armor. They do not wear fur. They do not strike me as being their own version of any of the four cultures both you and I have called them. It's clear this is Bioware's intent, but they have yet to visualize it and make it apparent.

For all of the bluster the item descriptions of certain Dalish armor and weapons give, it's just a copypasta of old Origins model armor. And even in DAII, Dalish armor is just a copypasta of the Ancient Elven Armor or some leather armor, with a different color scheme.

These guys are supposed to be close to nature. As such, I want to see this be apparent in the culture. I want to see the clans doing things that they should be doing to reflect on these four cultures.

As it stands, all they seem to really do is practice their superiority complex.

I mean, the Welsh/Irish voices are nice because that certainly adds a little visual identity all their own, but the DA elves have a far ways to go to be visually unique.

For some flavor of my own, here's a Cherokee mourning song:



and an Ojibwe -- my tribe -- song:



and one more Native American song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUU_om7a8MQ&feature=related


If DA3 could depict the Elves to have more of a Native American feel -- as well as Celtic, Gypsy, and Jewish -- then I would be willing to play as one in DA3.

Granted, Dwarves are still my favorite race, but Elves would immediately be a close second if they could do what I want. Which is make the Elves be Elves in more than just the physical depiction. The psychological and cultural depictions are crucial to this whole thing.

Some great photographs in those videosB)

The Dwarves in DA cling pretty close to the established fantasy cliché. The 'cult' of the paragons feels a bit like ancestor worship, and doesn't really clash with or radically differ from the various established themes and concept concerning fantasy dwarves. The Varric character works very well in DA2 precisely because he differs from his more fantasy cliché-like kin in DA in terms of looks and attitude. Very iconic character, in fact I'd go so far as to say he's the only truly memorable character in the entire game.
Anyway, the DA dwarves are mostly fine with me, precisely because I think they're cliché fantasy dwarves done well. Not too different, and the differences (mostly the paragon stuff) are clear and felt pretty consistent to me.

The only thing that did not sit well with me was the way the social divide in dwarven society was depicted. It felt very Third World-slummish to me; it's not that I have a problem with the existence of a social/economical divide in dwarven society, but the way in which it was given form. 

Anyway, regarding Elf design, I remembered today that the French fantasy series 'Weëna' (writer: Eric Corbeyran, artist Alice 'Captain' Picard) produced fairly interesting and colourful types of Elf, combining various real-world and fantasy elements and themes. And yeah, it's both very colourful and pretty grim and gritty - murder, incest, ambition, prohecy, curses, vengeful spirits, the works.
There are almost certainly more examples - there's a reason the French (and Belgians) dominate the fantasy graphical novel scene in Europe - but it is a nice example of Elves that look and feel different yet are attractive and interesting-looking. I add these pictures not as something that I feel Bioware should have done or should do with the DA Elves, but as an example of how you can create genuine and successful variation on a well-worn cliché concept (while still using many familiar elements).



 









Well, enough about Elf design. I've noticed that there's a new separate art style thread, I suppose that's the more appropriate place for this kind of stuff. Back to Amalur:innocent:

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 20 janvier 2012 - 11:16 .

[Das Tentakel]

Atakuma wrote...

Morroian wrote...
1. Its not exactly open world.
2. The Skyrim dungeons are far more interesting than KOA's because most of them have interesting backstories involved that you follow as you go deeper into the dungeon via diary entries and other documnetation. KOA form what I saw was merely go into dungeon, kill some enemies, get some loot. Skyrim is actually a superb example of how to deliver background info about the world integrated into the game that Bioware could follow.

Bioware has already done the whole find a journal entry in the dungeon thing.

Lots of cRPG's do the journal in a dungeon thing (it's a well-established fantasy cliché after all, remember Moria?). But I'm with Morroian that Skyrim does it better than DA. I am currently replaying DA:O because my late game saves were lost when my drive crashed last year , so I experience the game, erm fresh. Good way of looking at its strong and its weak points.
It's no match frankly, Skyrim wins. Maybe Bioware did better back in the BG days?
DA2 is certainly no competition...

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 20 janvier 2012 - 11:45 .

[Das Tentakel]

LPPrince wrote...

culletron1 wrote...

OK so after playing the demo I feel it falls into some of the same traps as DA2

Overly Cartoony looking
Unrealistic combat animations
Combat is too fast paced
Character design is a little to over the top

Thats really all I can comment on. I'll wait for reviews to determine if its worth a go or not as, the things I've listed are big immersion breakers, it can be saved by a good story and deep characters.

1. Cartoony? Still not getting it.
2. That I can give you, but that attracts some people and pushes others
3. The combat is supposed to be actiony, so its perfectly paced for what its supposed to be.
4. I don't see the character designs as over the top. This isn't some Beach Volleyball game, hahaha

I guess its down to every person's unique personal interests and opinions.

Amalur does not seem to be a game striving for the kind of realism of, say, The Witcher, Skyrim or even DA. 
It's pointless blaming the game for it. Its style of graphics and gameplay are neither good nor bad, it's a matter of preferences. There is a difference between quality of execution compared to intent, and whether you like what they intended anyway. Amalur strikes me as a game that knows pretty well what it is and what it wants to do, and actually does it pretty well. To me it feels it has a much stronger sense of self, when it comes to the world and the visual style, than DA. 
I like it, even though I usually prefer more realism like The Witcher, Skyrim, Mount & Blade Warband etc.

To each his own...

And no, I don't think DA should take any from it, with the exception of a more open world - that and developing a recognisable personality of its own. Even if that personality is generic fantasy by nature. Just let it become the best generic fantasy setting it can be.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 20 janvier 2012 - 11:40 .

[Atakuma]

Morroian wrote...
The Skyrim dungeons are far more interesting than KOA's because most of them have interesting backstories involved that you follow as you go deeper into the dungeon via diary entries and other documnetation. KOA form what I saw was merely go into dungeon, kill some enemies, get some loot. Skyrim is actually a superb example of how to deliver background info about the world integrated into the game that Bioware could follow.

I'm sorry but most of skyrim's dungeons have no backstory whatsoever and the ones that do are perfunctory at best.

[Atakuma]

simfamSP wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Morroian wrote...
The Skyrim dungeons are far more interesting than KOA's because most of them have interesting backstories involved that you follow as you go deeper into the dungeon via diary entries and other documnetation. KOA form what I saw was merely go into dungeon, kill some enemies, get some loot. Skyrim is actually a superb example of how to deliver background info about the world integrated into the game that Bioware could follow.

I'm sorry but most of skyrim's dungeons have no backstory whatsoever and the ones that do are perfunctory at best.

Well there are over 120...I guess Beth couldn't make one for each, but the effort is still there; that counts for something no?

Sure, but that's not really the point. I find the assertion that this is something Bioware needs to learn from Skyrim quite silly, considering this is something they have already been doing for some time.

[LPPrince]

Bioware could look at Tetris for inspiration on dungeon designs after DA2, jeez.

[Das Tentakel]

LPPrince wrote...

Bioware could look at Tetris for inspiration on dungeon designs after DA2, jeez.

Funny thing is, when you read or listen to various interviews and PR talk (the art director especially), the dev team seems to heve been very aware of the need to address these things (environments etc.). After all, that WAS already a problem with DA:O. But it does make you kind of wonder what exactly happened during the development process. Oblivion's dungeons were rightfully criticized, though at the time some of them were quite atmospheric (well, at least the first few times....). And while some people have issues with Skyrim's dungeons, to me it's clear that Bethesda really did their best to improve them, and they succeeded to a large extent. Not perfect and still a way to go, but definitely something Bioware should take a long hard look at.

I'll play the Amalur demo a second time today for a closer look, in-between DA:O. One thing I was kinda feeling playing Amalur is that the initial zones had a strong and dominant visual 'feel',  but perhaps a bit too dominant compared to the relatively large size of the areas. What I mean is that you get the same 'feelíng' for too long a time. The hamlet of Gorhart, for instance, does not entirely feel like a 'place by itself' and feels completely dominated visually by its environment. I had the same thing with the Fae ruins, they're so 'overwhelmed' by the surrounding area they do not quite have a character of their own.

When I am in Skyrim's settlements on the other hand, I am definitely in a distinct place, even if it's located in a majestic open landscape. 

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 21 janvier 2012 - 09:40 .

[LPPrince]

I can see that. KoA's environments kinda outshine whatever encampments or villages are around.

Then again, we've only seen this one. The game world is huuuuge. Who knows if it changes.

Although I'm willing to bet it doesn't. KoA has fantastic environment, but I don't know if the cities will stand out from them.

With DAO and DA2 being made up of closed off areas, it doesn't really matter. What they have to do is make those closed off areas look better.

Speaking strictly of DA2, that job was done poorly. We had a beach area that was drab and dead. A forest/mountain area that was bare and empty. A city that was brown and lifeless.

We need color, action, more citizens, activity, etc etc.

Make the worlds feel ALIVE.

In KoA, even that could be done better. I wish the environments were more populated. I understand why they aren't, but as large as they are, I want to run into bad guys a lot more than I currently am.

[LPPrince]

I wouldn't pin DA2's being rushed on KoA.

[bschaaf]

i just finished the Reckoning demo and this seems like a good place to mention what i liked and would be appropriate for DA3. I liked what the OP said, the vibrant colors are great. i liked their take on the conversation wheel and the "conversation box" so you could be sure you covered all of the available information. I can't remember if DA2 had a helmet toggle, but just like ME, Reckoning has this option. Finally, i really liked the bags in the inventory screen. I found 2 bags, one for reagents and one for gems (i think) that really saved slots in inventory. this is something i would like for the next DA game. i am not sure how it works, whether there's a limit on stuff in the bag, but it was a nice way to free up similar things in the inventory. i hope it's not too hard to implement if the DA team decide to try this.

[Ricvenart]

I just finished the demo and too be honest I'm not as impressed as everyone else seems to be. I'm thinking about purchasing it and who knows maybe some of my concerns are address in the release version but these things will "frustrate" the experience if they aren't.
1. The Dialogue wheel, why is it used so infrequently, not only is it better for controllers as you are only pressing one direction to get to the topic you wish once, it eliminates lists and it really boggles me why they have these 2 systems to do the same thing, it's not like the wheel is always used in making a choice only.
2. The Wheel again, it's never clear on what you may select in the wheel that will remove other choices and move the event forward, nearly every time I thought "oh I'll just hear about this then select that one" and it was gone then.
3. Boring lists, simalar to the above but like every character you can speak to can regergitate the same information as everyone else, except on occassion you may learn one or two new things so you can't outright write it off as a waste of time. I hated this in morrowind, every character having every topic and it being counted as new every time.
4. Control and interface in general seemed really incoherent and just every new feature was tacked on over being blended it, scrolling though the menus to find items and being able to switch between weapons both lacked many good methods to make it easier, there is the wheel thing by pressing LB but I didn't actually work out how to set the different weapons to that to allow quick switch. When looting new armor thats better you have to inspect it to equip it. Ditching items you have to junk then destroy.
5. May be unfair as it was only a demo but theres a sea of graphic glitches, at one point the forest had been floorboarded with wood and another while talking to a character she raised her eyebrow which went way too high and never came back down even after moving on in the conversation to a sad topic. Hopefully these will be fixed as it shatters immersation/concentration/enjoyment. Not sure if it is a glitch or just art style but there seemed to be way too many light effects and other effects, things like plants to harvest sparkle to make them obvious but they get so lost in all of the other effects it becomes no easier to see the lootable object then without.
6. Not thrilled with skills, 90% of my harvesting failing, "chain able abilities" don't flow but that may just be from an awkard incoherent battle system, can't check rubble for loot unless I have a perk that makes it visible. Hated using the fire staff on the spiders the range seemed to change drastically with every attack and even though it's meant to be effective my sword was both quicker and easier to kill them. Still nice try to balance the jack of all trades and single class players by looking at the fate cards, not sure how well it will work in the end though.
7. The non-silent "silent protagonist" seemed shocking ok with being dead/not dead and not in his original body.

Still saying that I found more enjoyment out of it and more interest in the story in the hour then the hundred I tried in skyrim and still found it a more coherent game regardless of the above. The features of the game sound interesting, like player housing not only having a range from small to castle like but the storage is shared between them all meaning no hunting all you're homes for everything or going to one place to dump excess loot. Meant to be pets too but unforunately they may only be in your home and not able to help you. I'll also be interested in finding out if you can ever get companions or relationships in the game, or if it's alone all the time. I done the quest with a wolf hoping I'd get a new pal to join me but no such luck but maybe thats something in the main game.

[LPPrince]

Oh yeah, I like how the menu splits up weapons, armors, consumables, etc etc. You can quickly get to what you need that way.

[The_11thDoctor]

Honestly I just got done playing the demo for this game and Im impressed beyond belief... I never heard of it until I seen the add for the armor swaps. I pray DA3 is on the level of this game. Just the demo was bigger than DA2 was... By the factor of 10... world was vast, open, tons of things filling up the environments, great amount of npcs, good amount of story, gorgeous textures, better looking hair, black and asian people... I mean, If it wasnt for the potential story of DA3, I'd have no reason to look forward to DA3 after just playing the demo of this game... Bioware needs to step up to bat and show that this new company cant take them on. There were some glitches here and there and sadly the main character isnt voice, which I HATE, but the game's a butt load of fun. Not sure when it drops, but its a day 1 purchase that blindsided me!

DA3... you must be this tall to be great (KOA) Dont disappoint me! 3rd times a charm right?! There speed run of the game is 200hrs with skipping cut scenes and text. I cant remember the last time I was this impressed by an RPG...

You can keep the DA2 Legacy dlc combat, keep the voiced main, the banter, the inventory sys, conversation wheel, BUT just make the world as big as KOA demo or the real game and it'll=WIN! I have no prob with the art direction. Just add more into the environments and expand. LASTLY, give us choices that matter and effect the story, world and characters! Never mind the bad story telling. The story was fine, except the time skip thing and no lies from varric after only 2x... Sorry Im going of topic from all the random fails in execution of that game... I just hope they're paying attention to the comp they're help promote, cause there is no excuse for DA3 sucking or being less of a game than KOA if it comes out after. There wasnt one when DA2 launched either... If I get fooled a 3rd time, Im done with DA. Ill stick to the books.