483 réponses à ce sujet

[Huntress]

Merci357 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

The demo killed my interest in this game and I hope Bioware doesn't make DA3 look anything like it.

This. I was mildly interested KoA, but the demo cured that rather fast. Atrocious game.

ROFL..

I suppose that fake green trees didn't do a thing to make it feel alive? maybe Koa rivers need it a few jumping fishes from Skyrim? lol yes they look so vibrant, beautiful but when you start to dig.. is BS! and if you talk about it everyone that like the game will point to the green trees or the stupid fishes, not one remember any of the dragons name from Skyrim or any of the characters name from Koa.. Superficiality.. awwww it shines!.. yes crap can shine as much as silver from afar.

[LPPrince]

Is it so bad if someone cares more about the game world than the characters?

I'd say that'd be a perfectly valid opinion to have. No one should be put down for it, if that is indeed what they find most fond about games.

[Huntress]

Aren't the characters are part of that world? meh. If you care not for any of the character why you quest for them in the first place? wouldn't be better to get the main character to a forest and let him/her sit there for hours until you remember their names? ROFL.

Modifié par Huntress, 18 janvier 2012 - 03:20 .

[LPPrince]

What are you even talking about? *befuddled*

Modifié par LPPrince, 18 janvier 2012 - 03:27 .

[Dubya75]

Huntress wrote...

Aren't the characters are part of that world? meh. If you care not for any of the character why you quest for them in the first place? wouldn't be better to get the main character to a forest and let him/her sit there for hours until you remember their names? ROFL.

Huh? 

Modifié par Dubya75, 18 janvier 2012 - 03:28 .

[LPPrince]

Right. ANYWAY-

The promotional video at the end of the demo shows that a lot more of the game is bright and vibrant- I don't think DA games need that much, but just a few touches of it.

[Dubya75]

LPPrince wrote...

Right. ANYWAY-

The promotional video at the end of the demo shows that a lot more of the game is bright and vibrant- I don't think DA games need that much, but just a few touches of it.

I agree, Reckoning is bordering on looking cartoony. Installing and trying out the demo tonight...

[Weltenschlange]

Das Tentakel wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I don't entirely agree.

A bright sunny atmosphere like that would look out of place in Dragon Age but I get what you are trying to say. I think. The problem is the Bioware Art Team hear the words "dark" and "gritty" and translate it into "dull greys and muddy browns" and after all these games they STILL cant do headgear (its ALWAYS hideous),
Games don't have to be "brown" and "grey" to be "dark" and "gritty".

It would probably be better to find a game that featured darker themes in its art style and did it well rather than pointing to a game that makes a point of being over the top and unrealistically bright in its art direction and saying "copy this", for comparison.

I find myself consistently baffled at the treatment Dragon Age and its various bits n pieces get from Bioware. Almost like its an afterthought in the wake of Mass Effect (Dragon Age 2 especially). It confuses me cos DAO was BW's best selling game ever by more than 40% over its nearest "rival" in BW's back catalogue. You would think that would make the higher up's want to give DA the time and attention it deserves as a franchise.

As the critical success of Skyrim proves, you don't have to have ur RPG be an "action RPG" in order for it to sell well.
Though I am confident that BW has taken notice now (of both DA2's failure and why, and of Skyrim's critical success) and will deliver a MUCH better game in Dragon Age 3.

With Hawke as the Main Baddie. Lol.

One basic problem may be that Bioware generally goes for the cliché and the recognisable. I don’t mean that in a bad way, recognisability is important and it allows their games to concentrate on storytelling, rather than spending too much energy on building the world.
And usually they do it well, for instance in Baldur’s Gate, Jade Empire and KotOR and maybe Mass Effect (I don’t feel qualified to comment on the ME games because they’re both gathering dust in my home. My impression is that they got the 1980s/1990s space opera esthetic basically right).

But in the case of DA, it feels to me that they don’t have a solid grasp of what they are trying to do, at least when it comes to the world and at least certain part of the narrative. It shines through in a lot of things, not just the use of colour (or lack of it) or visual style, but in various other elements as well, like highly implausible or illogical motivations of characters.

Now regarding grey-and-brown, when it comes to the depiction of ‘medieval’ settings (whether with a fantasy varnish or not), this is a Hollywoodian cliché.
It has become so common that friends of mine, medieval reenactors, once got the comment ‘…that their clothes were wrong, because medieval clothing was always brown and grey…’.

It is actually a fairly modern cliché; earlier medieval movie epics depicted medieval Europe as a rather colourful place, where green and grey and brown had their place, but there was also a lot of colour. This changed in the 70s and 80s; one of the main culprits is Monty Python, who depicted dirty, muddy, brown-and-grey people and locations in The Holy Grail and Jabberwocky. At the time, it made a nice change compared with the bright ‘n cheerful, romantic Middle Ages of the Hollywood epics, and it worked well in combination with the dark humour. Unfortunately, other movies copied it and it has now become an established cliché.
It can still work well, for instance contrasting bleak Europe with the sunny and colourful Middle East in Ridley Scott’s ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ or the action/horror of ‘Season of the Witch’. However, apart from the quality of the movies in question, the viewer is only exposed to the bleak colour scheme for a limited amount of time, and often only for part of the movie.

RPG’s, however, last for many hours; whether done well or not (and DA doesn’t do it all that well), most people can’t stand a depressing colour scheme for too long. It’s the same reason why we hate prolonged periods of rainy and cloudy days; it just isn’t any fun.

[*lots of example pictures*]

Nice post!

IMO part of the problem is that both the old and the new Hollywood approach concerning the color of "Medieval" clothes are too monolithic.
"Color for everyone" only works in an industrialized setting where cheap synthetic dyes and mass produced clothing are available, whereas "brown for everyone" only makes sense in world where the evil color fairy has stolen all rainbows.

Therefore I think that the use of color in the DA setting should depend on how rich the people or organizations in question are. The wealthy ones should flaunt their ability to use color not only for their clothing but also in the way they decorate their buildings and other property.

Which reminds me, has the trade of dyes in Thedas actually been mentioned anywhere?

[LPPrince]

I don't mind Reckoning's art style, but DA doesn't need it. I just think DA needs its vividness. Hah.

DA I would hope could be made to look more realistic, but still take advantages of this kind of vivid art style, at least as far as the world is concerned.

[Dubya75]

I just spent some time playing the new Amalur Demo...it's given me a new appreciation for DA2.
Bioware PLEASE! DO NOT take anything from this mishap of a game!
Absolutely terrible!

[Das Tentakel]

Weltenschlange wrote...

IMO part of the problem is that both the old and the new Hollywood approach concerning the color of "Medieval" clothes are too monolithic.
"Color for everyone" only works in an industrialized setting where cheap synthetic dyes and mass produced clothing are available, whereas "brown for everyone" only makes sense in world where the evil color fairy has stolen all rainbows.

Therefore I think that the use of color in the DA setting should depend on how rich the people or organizations in question are. The wealthy ones should flaunt their ability to use color not only for their clothing but also in the way they decorate their buildings and other property.

Which reminds me, has the trade of dyes in Thedas actually been mentioned anywhere?

The older Hollywood epics did actually differentiate between 'common people' and the nobility, with the first often having clothes with somewhat faded colours, and a somewhat higher prevalence of brown. It was probably useful as a kind of colour coding of the social differences in those movies.

Historically, the quality of the cloth and the dyes may be more important than the presence or absence of colour itself. Black and white cloth, for instance, would be really expensive, since it takes a lot of effort to make good black or white cloth. Many colours can be produced using relatively cheap vegetable materials (though they would have to be applied more than once during the cloth's use, because of the fading of the colours). When you look at Bruegel the Elder's paintings (and other late medieval / early modern painters) showing common people, a lot of them wear shades of red and blue, and that's without considering the fact that the colours of his paintings are not as bright as they were originally (many of them are paler or darker than when they were painted fresh).

Anyway, I used the examples to illustrate the contemporary cliché; when it comes to fantasy, I follow the rule (as a pen & paper RPG DM) to take the cool stuff from history as inspiration and turn it to 11. And that is actually not as easy as it may sound.
And you certainly don't want to use the boring stuff from history...

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 18 janvier 2012 - 06:45 .

[Gotholhorakh]

I'd like to see bright and vivid colours because there is a greater number of bright and/or beautiful settings - some natural beauty, some sunny weather, blue skies, glinting weapons - some feeling of realism with the graphical goo.

I don't want super-unrealistic art direction with all of the colours turned up to eleven because it just doesn't feel right for an engaging story.

It's nice to believe you could be there and the stuff happening could be happening... so nothing like WoW or Fable.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 18 janvier 2012 - 06:48 .

[LPPrince]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

I'd like to see bright and vivid colours because there is a greater number of bright and/or beautiful settings - some natural beauty, some sunny weather, blue skies, glinting weapons - some feeling of realism with the graphical goo.

I don't want super-unrealistic art direction with all of the colours turned up to eleven because it just doesn't feel right for an engaging story.

It's nice to believe you could be there and the stuff happening could be happening... so nothing like WoW or Fable.

At the same time, its fantasy, so I think they could excuse turning it up to eleven.

But I get you. Realism. I think its what we all want.

[NinaDA]

I played the Reckoning demo and what displeased me the most was the silent protagonist. DAO is my favorite game, and I didn't mind the silent protagonist there because the dialogue options allowed you to role-play a personality which was completely absent from what I saw of Reckoning. Character development is what makes BioWare games stand above all others for me. I got bored of Skyrim despite its spectacular beauty and scope for the same reason: lack of protagonist and NPC depth.

[Sylvianus]

Huntress wrote...

Merci357 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

The demo killed my interest in this game and I hope Bioware doesn't make DA3 look anything like it.

This. I was mildly interested KoA, but the demo cured that rather fast. Atrocious game.

ROFL..

I suppose that fake green trees didn't do a thing to make it feel alive? maybe Koa rivers need it a few jumping fishes from Skyrim? lol yes they look so vibrant, beautiful but when you start to dig.. is BS! and if you talk about it everyone that like the game will point to the green trees or the stupid fishes, not one remember any of the dragons name from Skyrim or any of the characters name from Koa.. Superficiality.. awwww it shines!.. yes crap can shine as much as silver from afar.

This. All this.

Okay, now, I need to understand. Okay, I am lying, I won't never understand.

What. the. hell ? Are people crazy ?

So bioware must take inspiration from this rpg that sucks ? Really ?

Where is the realism in this game ?

The graphics suck, the artstyle is even WORSE and more childish than DA2, the color palette ? LOL , how do you dare to ask Bioware to take inspiration from that ? Cinematics, camera angle, awkward, terrible.

And I read somewhere, that the system combat was better than fable and... skyrim ? Skyrim ? Wow wow wow. There is no comparison at all.

Da2 is flawled, but it is a thousand time better than this game. The reused areas are the only thing that come to my mind as a weakness compared to this game.

And I don't understand. So the fight in this game is good, but not in DA2 ? " Awesome button " ? like many like saying. But there, you need to press the same button even more , so what's wrong with some of us ? XD

I mean, no offense, but Bioware isn't that bad, to take inspiration from that. Don't get me wrong, this rpg seems fun, but that's it, they don't need to look at that, to do better rpgs.

If rpgs in general are like that, I am not interested in rpgs lol.

Kingdom,  looks like it comes from of the past, the ancient rpgs that seemed so awkward to those who don't play rpgs.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 janvier 2012 - 09:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

I love rainy and cloudy days. I was born in Oregon, and hate that Las Vegas is constantly bright and sunny. Even at night.

And I liked the Kingdoms of Amular: Reckoning demo. It reminded me of Fable, World of Warcraft, and Torchlight visually, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Gotholhorakh]

LPPrince wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

I'd like to see bright and vivid colours because there is a greater number of bright and/or beautiful settings - some natural beauty, some sunny weather, blue skies, glinting weapons - some feeling of realism with the graphical goo.

I don't want super-unrealistic art direction with all of the colours turned up to eleven because it just doesn't feel right for an engaging story.

It's nice to believe you could be there and the stuff happening could be happening... so nothing like WoW or Fable.

At the same time, its fantasy, so I think they could excuse turning it up to eleven.

But I get you. Realism. I think its what we all want.

Indeed. One thing I've never seen any game do very well is a Lothlorienesque golden forest that looks fantastic, but has some notional feeling that it's a real thing.

Things like that would be worth many gigabytes of neon purple forests and giant green rhomboid swords.

Some things are really hard to represent, though, especially things which involve Tolkienesque elves. It's why we all give up on "doing Tolkien elves" and end up with variants thereof that are easy to represent with... well, real shapes and colours.

Sylvianus wrote...
And I read somewhere, that the system combat was better than fable and... skyrim ? Skyrim ? Wow wow wow.

You know, I am the first to admit I've enjoyed Skyrim immensely and played it lots, but I'm not convinced the combat system is that great in Skyrim.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 18 janvier 2012 - 08:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

LPPrince wrote...

But I get you. Realism. I think its what we all want.

I hate realism.

But I do like the vivid and over-saturated colors scheme in KoA:R. The Deep Road in DA 2 had a bit of this and people hated the bright, red lyrium veins.

Apparently, veins of magical, glowing crystal running through the earth need to be subdued.

[Pzykozis]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I love rainy and cloudy days. I was born in Oregon, and hate that Las Vegas is constantly bright and sunny. Even at night.

And I liked the Kingdoms of Amular: Reckoning demo. It reminded me of Fable, World of Warcraft, and Torchlight visually, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm English and choose to remain here, nuff said about that.

Too bad it's abit boring though.

I'd enjoy a general muddy overcast rainy game, rain especially since it adds a fair bit to the atmosphere (a bit of pathetic fallacy during all that remains would have been a nice emotive touch methinks), if DA2 had a SDK out I'd probably use my knowledge of particle systems to try and implement some weather affects in it, but alas.

There are caveats though, overcast and gloomy doesn't mean blue filter. Filters are terrible, unless it's bladerunner for some reason the blue filter never did bother me in that film, probably cause theres a lot of reds and oranges in parts aswell which is a nice contrast. I just want the world to say I'm telling you, you live in a pretty bleak world, so I look pretty bleak myself, and then I'd smile and the world would make some semblence of coherency.

[Sylvianus]

Also, this game convinced me, that cinematics + silent protagonist wasn't really the best thing to do.

That seemed awkward.

What's funny, is that they did a wheel + silent protagonist XD, they don't even give more dialogue lines, phrases, the wheel is even more streamlined than that of DA2.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 janvier 2012 - 09:14 .

[Morroian]

Sylvianus wrote...

What's funny, is that they did a wheel + silent protagonist XD, they don't even give more dialogue lines, phrases, the wheel is even more streamlined than that of DA2.

The writing is quite poor.

[Maria Caliban]

Dark Souls does a nice non-realistic style.

[Das Tentakel]

Because a large part of this discussion revolves around visual style, has anyone listened to this podcast from august 2010? It's an interview with DA2 art director Matt Goldman, and it concerns the decision to alter the visual look vis a vis DA:O, as well as the design of Kirkwall.

blog.bioware.com/2010/08/05/biowares-dragon-age-2-podcast-episode-2-art-director-matt-goldman/

I found it very interesting and very illuminating. I also used several expletives that are not suitable for polite company   The interview made much clearer where things went wrong in terms of visual style and city design.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 18 janvier 2012 - 09:49 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dark Souls does a nice non-realistic style.

Oh hello. That is rather sexy.

[Sylvianus]

Morroian wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

What's funny, is that they did a wheel + silent protagonist XD, they don't even give more dialogue lines, phrases, the wheel is even more streamlined than that of DA2.

The writing is quite poor.

Oh lord, you re right. I thought the story was written for children. The great hero, destiny, the good guys mortal ( again alliance  elves, humans, etc etc; WoW ) against the bad and evil demon immortal.

At the beginning, I was facepalmed. But I don't mind a story cliche, ( I said to myself, don't be too hurry to judge the writting )  if it is well written. But after one hour, that was exactly like I thought....

If there wasn't the mass effect item to win by playing this demo, I would have stopped after 10 - 15minutes.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 janvier 2012 - 09:55 .