25 réponses à ce sujet

[Thunderdwarf]

I have a plan for a human PC warrior cleric. I don't know that much about dualclassing really. I was thinking of starting out either as a Berserker or a Ranger and then dual to cleric some time along the way. I think I will wait to dual at least until BG1 is done (lvl8), but I´m not sure.

What is best, Berserker or Ranger? Berserker gets his rage with its immunities and higher proficiencies (I have the un-nerfed grand mastery installed) wheras the ranger enables all druid spells and gives two pips in dual-wielding (which I intend to use, probably twin flails). What are the optimal levels for dualing to cleric? I intend to focus on divine casting but I also want at least some fighting prowess.

Are any of the ranger kits any good for dualing or is vanilla ranger the way to go? Stalker would be nice but I heard that you cant dual a stalker with ToB installed.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Thunderdwarf wrote...
What is best, Berserker or Ranger? Berserker gets his rage with its immunities and higher proficiencies (I have the un-nerfed grand mastery installed) wheras the ranger enables all druid spells and gives two pips in dual-wielding (which I intend to use, probably twin flails).

Generally, I'd say the ranger is a lot better. Divine buffs can do almost everything that the berserker enrage can, though it takes longer to buff and of course, against certain things (level drain, imprisonment etc), it's also a lot more difficult to protect against.
True Grandmastery is pretty nice though, especially pre-whirlwind.
I guess it's mostly up to preference; personally I'd have a small inclination towards the R->C.
Have you considered a stalker-cleric (for max-damage trifold backstabbing) or an archer-cleric (for better use of your sling while not casting spells)?

What are the optimal levels for dualing to cleric? I intend to focus on divine casting but I also want at least some fighting prowess.

The usual levels to dualclass from warrior are 2 (I just want certain bonuses, I'm not really a fighter), 7 (getting some more HP, but more importantly: an extra half attack), 9 (full use of warrior hit dice - 9D10 ) and 13 (another half extra attack).
Since you are using mods, have you taken a look at Spell Refinements? With that mod, you wouldn't need to go very high as warrior before dualclassing, because the cleric can get APR just like a fighter would. That wouldn't be much of an advantage at higher levels (since the difference in XP is marginal), but it would reduce the time you'd have to wait before getting to use your character as you wanted to use him.

Stalker would be nice but I heard that you cant dual a stalker with ToB installed.

If you are using mods nowadays*, you should install the G3 Fixpack. If you install the G3 Fixpack, you should read the readme. If you read the readme, you should come across this:

Optional But Cool: Remove Dual-classing Restriction from Archers and Stalkers
In Throne of Bhaal, archers and stalkers can not dual-class to clerics as normal rangers and beastmasters can; for consistency Core Fixes adds this restriction to SoA-only games as well. This component will remove the restriction.

*unless you are using mods that go out of their way to mention their incompabibility with it, most notably: Improved Anvil and BG Tutu

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 13 janvier 2012 - 02:37 .

[ussnorway]

Thunderdwarf wrote...

What is best, Berserker or Ranger?

Tip; you can’t cast spells whilst enraged... the restriction of stalker to cleric is a game engine device (to stop Valygar from duelling) and not due to any 2nd or 3rd editions rules... if you don’t want the fixpack then using shadowkeeper to change to a basic cleric for 2 minutes is a simple way around it.

p.s. the advantage of stalker is extra stealth & a small backstab but if that’s not something you are likely to use then you are probably better off with a basic ranger for the extra armour.

[polytope]

ussnorway wrote...

Tip; you can’t cast spells whilst enraged...

In Icewind Dale, vanilla BG2 has no such restriction (but should...)

ussnorway wrote... 
the restriction of stalker to cleric is a game engine device (to stop Valygar from duelling) and not due to any 2nd or 3rd editions rules... if you don’t want the fixpack then using shadowkeeper to change to a basic cleric for 2 minutes is a simple way around it.

Easier than using shadowkeeper (since it will work in successive games) is to find the file DUALCLAS.2DA (not a typo, filenames are always 8 characters or less) in the game's overide folder, open it with notepad and find the line for stalkers, in the second column (cleric) replace the 0 with a 1. Archer dualclassing can be re-activated the same way - although the game calls archers FERALAN (and avenger druids BEAST_FRIEND).

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
The usual levels to dualclass from warrior are 2 (I just want certain bonuses, I'm not really a fighter), 7 (getting some more HP, but more importantly: an extra half attack), 9 (full use of warrior hit dice - 9D10 ) and 13 (another half extra attack).

Forgot to add some actual reasoning for these different levels.
Level 2 only makes sense if you are playing Baldur's Gate 1 (obviously, since you start at a higher level in BG2). If you can afford to wait some more, then in most cases it's really worth it (but, as I said, with Spell Revisions it would be a pretty interesting level to dualclass).
Level 7 seems like a pretty level for a BG1 dualclasser too, but unless you are using BGT or have removed the BG1 XP cap through a mod, you would not be able to reach level 8 as a cleric (to reactivate your fighter levels) in time for the end of BG1. By the way, for BG2 it is still a rather low level (and one of my complaints about Anomen is that he is "just" a Fighter(7)->Cleric). Let's call this the BGT dualclass option.
Level 9 is a very common level to dualclass in BG2. The XP requirement for level ups is still rather low, so you can expect to enjoy your dualclass for most of the game.
Level 13 is for hardcore dualclassers. They are prepared to wait for a major part of Shadows of Amn before their levels reactivate. I do not think a single extra half attack would be worth this, but if you were using a class like archer (or kensai), that might be a different matter.

[Thunderdwarf]

Thanks for the input! I think I will dual from vanilla ranger at 9 then, as it seems like a good middle ground.

I was planning this setup:
Me (Ranger9/Cleric): Dual wielding flails (FoA and DoE) and maces (MoD+2)
Minsc: Dual wielding hammers, axes and longswords
Keldorn: 2h-sword, Halberds, Crossbow
Aerie: sling and shield
Imoen: staff and shortbow

Is this a good balance? I know I might be a bit fighter-heavy but I also have several good buffers. I really like the setup, partly because Im about to finish a run with Jaheira, Anomen, Imoen and Solafein so I want some change

Modifié par Thunderdwarf, 15 janvier 2012 - 10:21 .

[morbidest2]

When your 6th spot isn't being used by a NPC quest, why not have Edwin/Edwina to give you more arcane magic? Or Cernd for druidic magic?

Modifié par morbidest2, 16 janvier 2012 - 12:43 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

And miss out on a thief?

[Thunderdwarf]

Will the druid spells be enabled right away after dual-classing, or do I have to wait for the ranger class to re-activate before casting Iron Skins and bug-spells?

[morbidest2]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

And miss out on a thief?

Well, Imoen is in the "permanent" party, and you can always stick in Jan while she's captive.

[morbidest2]

Thunderdwarf wrote...

Will the druid spells be enabled right away after dual-classing, or do I have to wait for the ranger class to re-activate before casting Iron Skins and bug-spells?

I wasn't proposing that you dual druid/ranger -assuming that it is legal - but rather making the point that even if you want to skip using Jaheira on this run, Nature's Magic is still very useful in the latter part of SoA and in ToB.

If you are talking about making your PC a ranger/druid, then when you dual, you will only have the spells that a 1st level druid commands. So it will take a few promotions before you get lev 3 insect plague spell and a while more for iron skins.

[Thunderdwarf]

morbidest2 wrote...

Thunderdwarf wrote...

Will the druid spells be enabled right away after dual-classing, or do I have to wait for the ranger class to re-activate before casting Iron Skins and bug-spells?

I wasn't proposing that you dual druid/ranger -assuming that it is legal - but rather making the point that even if you want to skip using Jaheira on this run, Nature's Magic is still very useful in the latter part of SoA and in ToB.

If you are talking about making your PC a ranger/druid, then when you dual, you will only have the spells that a 1st level druid commands. So it will take a few promotions before you get lev 3 insect plague spell and a while more for iron skins.

Im still doing a Ranger(9)/Cleric, I was just wondering because I have read that this class combination enables the druid spells. That was what I was asking, if the druid spells will be avalible to my cleric before the ranger part becomes reactivated. Have I misunderstood this, do I even get druid spells?

Modifié par Thunderdwarf, 16 janvier 2012 - 08:07 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Thunderdwarf wrote...

Will the druid spells be enabled right away after dual-classing, or do I have to wait for the ranger class to re-activate before casting Iron Skins and bug-spells?

I'm going to make morbidest2 say "D'oh!" now.

I'm pretty sure that a dualclass Ranger->Cleric only starts having access to druid spells once the ranger class is reactivated. Iron Skins is level 5 though, so you would only need to wait for one
more level than normal (10 rather than 9) before being able to cast it.

Oh and D'Oh! I didn't count the characters listed, I just assumed it would be 6.

[morbidest2]

H_T: I didn't make any comments about a R/C , just a R/D. But as long as we're on the subject, a human dual R/C is a pretty powerful cuss, and one of the easier ways to get thru the trilogy. So is a non-human multi R/C, although it takes longer to mature. Since Thunderdwarf started by saying that he was going to begin in BG1, he will only have a human Ranger until he gets to BG2 and makes the usual wait until R9 to make the switch. By going non-human multi in BG1, he also see the advantages/disadvantages of the R/C combo up front - presumably using Tutu or BGT to make BG1 less boring.

[ussnorway]

It's your game Thunderdwarf but I don't think you'll enjoy Ranger(9)/Cleric... because the class is more of a spell slinger & the only advantage that I can see to waiting for level 9 is that it will give you just enough time to do the Ranger stronghold before you dual.

p.s.
Humanoid_Taifun is correct in that you have to wait for your ranger class to reactivate before you can cast the Druid spells.

Modifié par ussnorway, 17 janvier 2012 - 07:00 .

[Thunderdwarf]

ussnorway wrote...

It's your game Thunderdwarf but I don't think you'll enjoy Ranger(9)/Cleric... because the class is more of a spell slinger & the only advantage that I can see to waiting for level 9 is that it will give you just enough time to do the Ranger stronghold before you dual.

Are you proposing a level 2 dual? I like the larger amount of HP full warrior hit dice at 9th lvl and I dont mind having to wait a bit for my ranger half to come back. I might not do BG1, as I have been playing it alot recently.

[ussnorway]

I would indeed dual a Ranger to Cleric at level two except for the Archer subclass who should be level four... The difference between Warrior and Priest is two hit points per level... and that’s at best... if you play on core rules then don’t expect much especially when you factor in the fact that you gain no more points whilst waiting for your Ranger class to reactivate but that’s not really the point.

Ask yourself... “am I going to cast spells or would I be happier charging into combat?” if the answer to this question is spells then that’s great but if you want combat then I personally believe you would be better served with a Ranger/Cleric multi-class.

Modifié par ussnorway, 18 janvier 2012 - 06:35 .

[silenceall]

The way I see it, everything is a tradeoff when talking about multi vs. dual classing.  The first choice you made was R instead of F.  The tradeoff there is you get the druidic spells instead of the quicker level advancement and possibility of grand mastery (assume dual classing). 

The second choice is to dual or multi.  In your original post you indicated a preference for dualing.  There are legitimate pros to both options and you just have to determine what your goal is.  To me, when deciding R->C or R/C the real decision is about warrior HLAs vs. more high level divine casting (and the wait to get R abilities back).  The second part of the decision is if dualing, at what level?  Again there are pros and cons to every decision.  I would think that an R/C is easier to play because you never have the issue of learning how to keep PC alive while waiting for the R to reactivate.  However, having said that, an underleveled cleric is probably one of the easiest classes to keep alive because there are no armor restrictions and after gaining just a few levels back it has some decent buffs to help.

Also, I have to disagree a little with ussnorway.  With the right combination of DUHM, Holy Power, Rightous Magic etc., I think an R->C can be nearly as effective in melee as an R/C.  The issue here is APR.  As previously stated, the Ranger gets an extra 0.5 APR at level 7 and then again at level 13.  When dualing, most people don't (or at least I don't) have the patience to wait til R13->C14 to get those ranger abilities back.  Therefore, those who are impatient will always have less APR than the mutliclass variant at high levels.  So, what I'm suggesting is that for any warrior to cleric dual, I wouldn't go less than warrior 7 before dualing.

(EDIT: no more wall of text)

Modifié par silenceall, 18 janvier 2012 - 02:32 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ussnorway wrote...
I would indeed dual a Ranger to Cleric at level two except for the Archer subclass who should be level four...

Why the archer to level 4? Sure, you get 1 point more damage out of it, but that's at level 3, and if you dualed at level 9, you'd be a whole lot more powerful...

Thunderdwarf wrote...
Are you proposing a level 2 dual? I like
the larger amount of HP full warrior hit dice at 9th lvl and I dont
mind having to wait a bit for my ranger half to come back. I might not
do BG1, as I have been playing it alot recently.

Keep in mind that I suggested level 2 for warrior like R->C only with the notion that you'd need Spell Revisions to make the most of it.

ussnorway wrote...
The difference between Warrior and Priest is two hit points per level... and that’s at best...

Sure, a human ranger can get up to 14 HP per level, but once he gets the tome, that's 15 per level. A cleric gets 12. 3 points difference.

you gain no more points whilst waiting for your Ranger class to reactivate but that’s not really the point.

Quite right.
R(2)->C(11) has 118HP (assuming perfect HP results).
R(9)->C(10) has 137HP.
(using these two because they require about the same amount of XP, and it is also a way of demonstrating how little clerical power you lose by going level 9 with your ranger)

but if you want combat then I personally believe you would be better served with a Ranger/Cleric multi-class.

I agree that a multiclass would definitely have a lot more melee potential than the dual (even if it's mostly through the HLAs), but I'm also convinced that the dualclass can melee pretty well too.

[Grond0]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Sure, a human ranger can get up to 14 HP per level, but once he gets the tome, that's 15 per level. A cleric gets 12. 3 points difference.

I thought a dual class cleric could only benefit from 16 constitution and would therefore only get 10 points per level.  A multi-class ranger/cleric, however, would benefit from the higher constitution for both the ranger and cleric levels.  Am I wrong in that?

R(2)->C(11) has 118HP (assuming perfect HP results).
R(9)->C(10) has 137HP.
(using these two because they require about the same amount of XP, and it is also a way of demonstrating how little clerical power you lose by going level 9 with your ranger)

The R(2) HPs assume constitution 18, so would get up to 120 with 19 constitution.  The R(9) score I think should be 136, but would improve to 145 with 19 constitution, i.e. the HP benefit of later dualling is greater if you're using the BG1 tome.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Grond0 wrote...
I thought a dual class cleric could only benefit from 16 constitution and would therefore only get 10 points per level.  A multi-class ranger/cleric, however, would benefit from the higher constitution for both the ranger and cleric levels.  Am I wrong in that?

I'm pretty sure you don't lose HP when you dualclass.

The R(2) HPs assume constitution 18, so would get up to 120 with 19 constitution.

R(2) = 2 x 15HP
C(11) = 2 x 0HP + 7 x 12HP + 2 x 2HP.
30HP + 84HP + 4HP = 118HP

The R(9) score I think should be 136, but would improve to 145 with 19 constitution, i.e. the HP benefit of later dualling is greater if you're using the BG1 tome.

R(9) = 9 x 15HP
C(10) = 9 x 0HP + 1 x 2HP
135HP + 2HP = 137HP.

Edit: A warrior gets +4HP for con18 and +5HP for con19.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 18 janvier 2012 - 09:01 .

[ussnorway]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

ussnorway wrote...
I would indeed dual a Ranger to Cleric at level two except for the Archer subclass who should be level four...

Why the archer to level 4? Sure, you get 1 point more damage out of it, but that's at level 3, and if you dualed at level 9, you'd be a whole lot more powerful...

As I understand it, missile weapon bonus is  L1-3 =1, L4-6 =2, L7-9 =3 & L10-12 =4 FYI
this stacks with Dexterity + Elf bonus (longbows).

BTW- Called Shot is once per day for every 4 levels.

[Grond0]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
R(2) = 2 x 15HP
C(11) = 2 x 0HP + 7 x 12HP + 2 x 2HP.
30HP + 84HP + 4HP = 118HP

My apologies for getting those calculations wrong - must be past my bedtime!  I have just checked that, on my BGT installation anyway, the dualled class does not benefit from higher constitution (unless a fighter type).  Thus in the R(2) C(11) example above the maximum HP would be 104. 

The significant disparity in HP compared to the 137 HP for a character dualling at ranger 9 is another good reason to delay.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ussnorway wrote...
As I understand it, missile weapon bonus is  L1-3 =1, L4-6 =2, L7-9 =3 & L10-12 =4 FYI

No, it's L1-2 =0, L3-5 =1, L6-8 =2 & L9-11 =3 (and so on until level 18)

this stacks with Dexterity + Elf bonus (longbows).

But neither of these improve the damage, do they?

Grond0 wrote...
I have just checked that, on my BGT installation anyway, the
dualled class does not benefit from higher constitution (unless a
fighter type).  Thus in the R(2) C(11) example above the maximum HP
would be 104.

I had to check it too because I couldn't believe it.
First the R->C had 28 HP upon dualing (con 18), but upon going to level 11, it really was 104. Learn something new every day.

[amanasleep]

@ussnorway: a dual class cannot get the elf bonus because he must be human...

The spellcasting of the dual is more useful in SoA. The multi has a higher power ceiling in ToB. I generally go with the R->C to take advantage of the fun kit interactions. Beastmaster duals get loads of summons. Stalker duals get practically unlimited minor spell deflection and haste casting. Archer duals can cast more effectively by applying called shot with fire seeds, which turn them into mini-greater malisons.