36 réponses à ce sujet

[Bhryaen]

This is a bit of a noob question, but I didn't see any posts addressing this in the first five pages of topics (the last several months), so I thought I'd recirculate it...

I've played NWN1... since it came out. I still do. But I never got NWN2 because 1. I kept hearing about the persistence of bugs, and 2. trailers and playthrough videos pretty much looked exactly like NWN1 from monsters to movement to character appearance to effects... so I didn't see the point of it. It's those two things that keep me from just getting it to try it out.

So what I'm wondering is-
1. After yrs of development and patching, is NWN2 free of the major bugs yet?
2. What is distinctive about NWN2 that makes it different from NWN1 in appearance, gameplay, etc.?

[kamal_]

It's a DnD game, so gameplay is going to be similar, barring the differences between DnD rules version 3 (NWN1) and 3.5 (NWN2), monsters are going to be similar etc.

Given that NWN2 plus it's expansions are often sold for $10 via Steam and other places. I suggest you just buy it and find out.

Visually, you can just look at this thread. http://social.biowar...index/8157463/1

[M. Rieder]

After patching, NWN2 is virtually bug free.

[Shallina]

NWN2 is an evolution of NWN1, so almost everything you got in NWN1 you got it in NWN2, and you got somme added feature, the game is debugged and fine now.

NWN2 is a real party based game while NWN1 isn't.

If you look for games like NWN1, you have NWN2, DAO wich is cool as well but with a different approach, The witcher 2, and Skyrim.

Those games are really incredible and without many bug.

NWN2 and DAO comes both of them with a really powerfull toolset, the both of them can be difficult (the toolsets) and aren't very "noob friendly", but they are both amazing.

Modifié par Shallina, 13 janvier 2012 - 11:45 .

[Axe_Edge]

NWN2 auto downloader is worth it.

[Bhryaen]

I couldn't manage to access the photos on that other post thread, but, after finding other online material, it seems the original trailers for NWN2 were so much more underwhelming than what I'm seeing now. I also like the D&D-oriented, "not-noob-friendly" aspect and what I'm reading from the wiki about NPC characters both more controllable than in NWN1 as well as leaving the party based on NPC personality and player actions- as well as using a main city as a focal point from which to venture out and about at will- are all very similar to the original Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 that I revere.

I have little interest in DA:O from what I've seen due to how much more of a hack-and-slash tunnel-like Dungeon Siege format it is, but it seems like NWN2 has had good developers who deliberately addressed a number of concerns with how crpg's have gone since BG, and if they've also ditched the original NWN chapter system (that eliminated going back to earlier areas) NWN2 seems to be a correction of past errors.

So with the bugs fixed, I'm leaning toward it more heavily now. I just hope the voice acting and storyline measure up as well. Thanks for the input, everyone :-)

@Axe_Edge What is the auto-downloader? Do you mean this patch at the NWNvault?

Modifié par Bhryaen, 14 janvier 2012 - 12:30 .

[kamal_]

Autodownloader is a server feature for PW's. When you connect to the PW, the autodownloader will download any/all content you need to play on the server. As a player, it's nothing for you to do except hit connect to the server.

[-Semper-]

Bhryaen wrote...

2. What is distinctive about NWN2 that makes it different from NWN1 in appearance, gameplay, etc.?

it's party based with full control of your companions. that alone makes it superior to nwn1!

Bhryaen wrote...

I just hope the voice acting and storyline measure up as well.

you're talking about classic rpgs and you want good voice acting? better to give a crap about this new age ****! it's all about written dialogues, c&c and content. sadly the vanilla campaign lacks in this department with its mediocre story. mask of the betrayer is way better and storm of zehir brings back traditional dungeon romping with party creation, lots of skill usage and a nice overland map.

[manageri]

I tried playing NWN1 after a looooong time again and the vastly inferior UI and controls just made it impossible for me to enjoy it again after playing NWN2 for so long.

[The Fred]

If you come here asking that question, people will answer NWN2.

If you ask the same question in the NWN1 forums, people will answer NWN1.

Thankfully most of the one-vs-the-other hate-rage has blown over now and we're all older and wiser (or at least, older), but people still have their preferences... and biases.

Personally I think NWN2 just has more to offer. A few of the later NWN1 features were added post-NWN2 and so NWN2 never got them. There are also one or two things they did away with, unfortunately. However, NWN2 gets so much more. Now, I'm speaking more from a builder's point of view. Will you feel a difference if you play the game? Well, when I got it I noticed many differences, but it also felt like the same game. Even the messages you get in the little box in the bottom are written in the same colour. However, as you play on (depending on what you play) you'll realise that the builders have done things they just couldn't previously, like making interactive UI windows pop up and stuff like that.

For a player, the most immediately obvious features are probably, IMO, subraces and party control, things which you just couldn't do in NWN1.

[Bhryaen]

@The Fred Actually I didn't know of any "hate-rage" between the two and wasn't intending any conflict- more just a compare/contrast, leaving the topic open for any insights or discussion it might bring, and I certainly wanted the NWN2 fans to tell what they know. Thus I posted it with hopefulness toward NWN2 actually. What you mention about some missing NWN1 features (which ones? anything important?) and most advantages being for builders is good. I'd rather know the disappointments in advance so I can prepare to overlook them if they're not too numerous.

What Semper said was good- obviously an NWN2 fan but openly critical. I'd have to disagree though- the voice acting in the BG series and even NWN1 to a large degree was quite good compared to the more "modern" crpg's I've seen.

[kamal_]

Bhryaen wrote...

@The Fred Actually I didn't know of any "hate-rage" between the two

There was a long time when nwn1/nwn2 made the Hatfield-McCoys look like best buddies.

[The Fred]

Well, I've seen worse, but basically - not wanting to rekindle any old fires of anger here - there was a bit of dissent because of course when a new thing comes out, loads of people are like "This is so much better than the previous thing". This upset some of the vanguard of NWN1, plus I think the higher spec requirements for NWN2 were an issue - a lot of people simply couldn't play it on their hardware. I don't think I was the only one who bought it only to realise it needed an actual graphics card. The game also pretty buggy when it first came out so I think some people felt kind of ripped off. The long and short of it was that the disagreements, as disagreements tend to do, got more and more out of hand and there was a fair bit of bitterness there. By and large, I think people know better than to stir up trouble now. Most NWN2 players now were NWN1 players back in the day anyway so they like both games, even if they think the second has replaced the first.

Most of the features that NWN1 has over NWN2 were relatively minor; others were symptoms of differing structure, so to speak, in the way the game worked. Off the top of my head:
Pretty much all the v1.69 stuff, because v1.69 came after NWN2 was out.
- Horses
- Scripted colour channel changing (you can never change your hair colour in NWN2, say)
Model part changing - NWN2 doesn't use armour parts in the same way but along the road the ability to alter them through scripting was lost.
Certain bugs were introduced in NWN2.
I don't know if the TXI stuff which you could use in NWN1 to make funny visual effects works in NWN2.
Also the NWN2 toolset, whilst more powerful, is harder to use. Some people dislike things like the layout and some of the other things it's got going, too.
Things like cutscenes work differently, too. Better, most would argue, but takes some re-learning.

Things like that.

[kevL]

Bhryaen,

disappointments: no purple highlight around selected weapon combo on the hotbar. no groovy animation of reaching into your pack when switching weapons! no cool lunging two-weapon attack animation ... there are some good animations in NwN2, but some of them should have been saved for Critical Hits & whotnot. Generally i like the anim's in NwN better. Sounds don't fade nicely like they did before, and various irky graphical silliness at times

best: fully controllable companions ( Tactics! ) Outdoor geography gets fantastic (when a modder puts their heart in it) etc. Like manageri said, i can't go back, even with this old 2008 system that would, and has run NwN like melted butter .......

[Luminus]

Coincidentally, I was reading a similar thread yesterday that was started one year ago.

I was a huge NwN1 fan and still am. When NwN2 came out I was disappointed because I couldn't run it and kept hearing about all the bugs. But now I prefer NwN2.

NwN2 IS better than NwN1 in most areas but unfortunately it's less polished and more rough around the edges.


It has more races and subraces, with unique models and hair for each one

More base classes and the Warlock is my favorite

Many more prestige classes and actual spellcasting prestige classes than advance spellcasting instead of just slots (*cough* NwN1 Pale Master *cough*)

More feats and eliminated some useless and overpowered ones (Dirty Fighting, Devastating Critical, Epic Mage Armor, Epic Warding)

More spells and also some overpowered ones are gone (Time Stop, Black Blade of Disaster come to mind).
A usual combo was Time Stop + Maximized Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, repeat until it's dead. Or Sanctuary + Black Blade of Disaster = go make some coffee.

Also Quickcast is one of the most amazing features of NwN2. Press F, maybe click on any metamagic icons and instantly you can use any spell memorized on the spot. My Sorcerer in HotU had all his quickslots filled with spells and their metamagic versions. That was a nightmare for Wizards.


NwN1 never had real party-based gameplay, unless you played it with friends. Even after three expansions (SoU, HotU, Kingmaker) they never implemented that. DnD is all about party-based adventures.

The toolset is indeed much more complex and less newbie-friendly but also much more powerful.
And while there are many more modules for NwN1, in my opinion, the ones for NwN2 are better and more unique.

With much more stuff and more complexity, come bugs, it's natural and you have to accept it. Even Baldur's Gate II had alot of bugs, that's why BG2 Fixpack exists.
The major ones are fixed and it's fully playable now but some feats or spells don't work as they should or at all.

I HIGHLY recommened Kaedrin's Pack. Not only does it fix ALOT of the bugs but also adds a ton of quality custom stuff too. They only reason you shouldn't use it, is if you play online or some modules or other custom content conflict with it.

Also NwN2 gave us something new at each expansion:
The OC is a standard DnD campaign.
MotB introduces epic levels and has an amazing storyline and twists from what I heard.
And SoZ, gives us an even more classic DnD campaign that emphasizes exploration and PCs built from scratch, than complex storyline or deep NPCs.

I played all NwN1 campaigns, and the only ones that truly stood out for me was HotU and Kingmaker.

In the end, play both. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Modifié par Luminus, 16 janvier 2012 - 01:17 .

[Bhryaen]

Wow, Luminus. Thanks for the full report on it- all very good to know. I've just looked at character creation, and it seems a bit much. Elementals?? Why do yuan-ti's get all those stat advantages, sheesh. I agree about the spellslots... always a trade-off... but I'm hoping these new spells aren't a confusing array of colours to distinguish. I like the ease-of-use symbols of NWN1 spell slot ID's.

Anyway it's looking interesting...

It's too bad the Kaedrin Pack isn't used universally so that it wouldn't conflict by exploring other content, but if it's just a matter of taking .hak files back out later, maybe it's not so difficult to remedy? I won't be online a while- not until I play the main campaign and get used to the interface.

I'm somewhat new to Steam btw (got it yrs ago for Halflife2 and then let it languish), but it seems it even updates your graphics driver for you. Does this mean that the NWN2 I just got from them will also be fully patched and updated?

Also does anyone have a link for the NWN2 auto-downloader? I can't find anything "official" enough by googling and searching NWNVault, but it sounds like the solution to all those belated rejections from NWN1 servers where I was missing one .hak or another...

[kamal_]

Bhryaen wrote...
Also does anyone have a link for the NWN2 auto-downloader? I can't find anything "official" enough by googling and searching NWNVault, but it sounds like the solution to all those belated rejections from NWN1 servers where I was missing one .hak or another...

There is no link, it's a built in feature of nwn2 (as of the 1.23 patch, which is the current and last patch). As a player, you don't have to do anything. If you're nwn2 is up to date (and Steam automatically installs it up to date), you have it.

[kamal_]

I should add that not all PWs use the autodownloader, particularly those that were launched prior to the adding of the autodownloader feature (added in patch 1.23 iirc).

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

This is an old debate, so at the risk of repeating myself, the big difference for me is the terrain, both interior and exterior. The outdoor areas in NWN never worked for me, they were always so flat, so they always looked fake. NWN2 improved upon that with the sculpted mesh exteriors, but it came at a cost. Outdoor areas got a lot smaller, and a lot fewer. With the NWN tiles, builders just churned out huge, sprawling areas. With NWN2, even the interior areas need a lot of detailed work from builders, so all areas tend to be smaller in size, fewer in number, but with richer, more carefully considered detail. So with NWN, especially the user-made modules, you got this sense that you had miles and miles of terrain to explore, though everything seemed kinda generic. NWN2 can give you some stunning landscapes worthy of a fantasy setting, but never enough to get truly lost in.

[Luminus]

Bhryaen wrote...

Wow, Luminus. Thanks for the full report on it- all very good to know. I've just looked at character creation, and it seems a bit much. Elementals?? Why do yuan-ti's get all those stat advantages, sheesh. I agree about the spellslots... always a trade-off... but I'm hoping these new spells aren't a confusing array of colours to distinguish. I like the ease-of-use symbols of NWN1 spell slot ID's.

No prob, that is my honest opinion of NwN2 until now. I can run NwN1 or BG right now and have lots of fun also.

The Genasi are basically Elemental Planetouched, which means they are humans that have ancestors that were elementals. They are not real elementals. They are like Tieflings and Aasimar, which are related to fiends and celestials respectively.

Yuan-ti get some nice advantages but they have Level Adjustment +2, which means they are two levels behind the normal races. So a Yuan-ti PC in the OC, is level 1 when almost everyone is level 3. When they get to level 5, Yuan-ti is level 3 etc.

Planetouched, Duergar, Gray Orcs are LA +1
Yuan-ti and Drow are LA +2
Svirfneblin are LA +3

Races with Level Adjustment are best for higher level Campaigns/modules like MotB, SoZ or Mysteries of Westgate.


About the spell IDs. The icons are pretty simple to understand, I believe. Haste shows a running man, Ice Storm are falling shards etc.
You can always hover your cursor over their icons and their name instantly pops up, both in the Spellbook and Quickcast.

Bhryaen wrote...

It's too bad the Kaedrin Pack isn't used universally so that it wouldn't conflict by exploring other content, but if it's just a matter of taking .hak files back out later, maybe it's not so difficult to remedy? I won't be online a while- not until I play the main campaign and get used to the interface.

You just download the override version of Kaedrin's Pack, you don't need to inject any haks into every module like the NWNPRC, if that's what you mean, and put the dialog.tlk file just outside the Override folder.

Unlike NwN1, NwN2 can read folders and subfolders in the Override, so you can keep things tidy.
When you want to play a module that doesn't support Kaedrin's Pack, just create an override_backup, or something like that, folder and put anything you want there.

Also in NwN2 you can use the My Documents/Documents directory instead the one in the installation path. It's easier and safer to tinker with.

Modifié par Luminus, 17 janvier 2012 - 09:11 .

[MrKWMonk]

I'm a long time on again, off again nwn player (even though I came late to the party). Skipped nwn2 for the same a fore mentioned reasons. Picked it up recently for just US$12 with two of the expansions. I'm making my way through the OC and am level 9 I think. I'd guess somewhere btwn15 to 20 hours in.

Had some minor issues with some of the graphics options overheating my GPU but was easy to fix and game still looks great.

All the comments above hit the nail on the head. For me it's instantly accessible as it is an updated version of nwn so almost no learning curve. There are a great many additional features, the quick cast menu is most welcome. Graphics are nice, I've see no major bugs yet, lots more character building options. Party management isn't that big a deal for me as I've been playing nwn1 with OldMansBeard henchmen mod for years. I get the impression there is quite a bit more community created content for nwn1 - important for me as that's what keeps me playing the first version. I also find controlling the camera can also be a bit clunky. As you can see not really much to complain about.

Bottom line though is you can pick it up, with the two main expansions, for less that $15 so you can't really go wrong. Cheaper than a movie and gives far more hours entertainment. If you enjoyed playing nwn1 I think you'll enjoy nwn2.


-KWm

[-Semper-]

Bhryaen wrote...

the voice acting in the BG series and even NWN1 to a large degree was quite good compared to the more "modern" crpg's I've seen.

my argument was not about the quality but the impact of voiced dialogue. back in the days they voiced tiny parts of dialogue just to add to the immersion. one sentence was enough to create atmosphere. today every single line has to be voiced, from npc and even pc. that costs lots of money and therefore the conversations have to be shorter to stay within the limited budget. it clearly cuts content and on top limits the rpg part of the pc with predefined voices.

there's nothing good coming from modern crpg's dialogue, at least in my book. if i want to see a cutscene driven, fully voiced rollercoaster with no gameplay at all i'll go to the cinema.

Modifié par -Semper-, 17 janvier 2012 - 08:11 .

[MrKWMonk]

I agree. The 'requirement' for games to have voice acting these days ends up being a limitation in my book. As another prime example, I play a lot of Morrowind. The difference in the amount of info you can get from NPCs compared to it's voice acted sequel Oblivion is a real draw back. Hundreds of words worth of game law, rumors and quest info is available from just about every npc in MW. In OB you're lucky to have more than one or two topics.

Anywhoo, we digress.

[Bhryaen]

@kevL Funny about the "groovy" animation for transferring things to and from one's pack. I like using a NWN1 mod that can change your char into a monster, and I've been experimenting with a bugbear, finding that they have probably the most elaborate pack-transfer animation (and most realistic movement appearance) of all creatures, including regular humans, elves, etc. Oh, well, we'll see how that goes. Is there a hak that adds the animation? The lunging thing always looked a bit off to me, so I won't miss it. hehe

@Lugaid Well, NWN1's OC never exactly got me lost either. The "cities" were always just a small group of urban areas with the easy-peesy Portal Stone to zap back from. Some of the NWN1 mods were pretty good on that though, but I'd wager that the NWN2 modders could string numerous areas together to approximate it.

@kamal Thanks for the info- good to know to watch for (and not scour the net looking for). It does sound like a necessity for online play.

@Luminous Thanks for that background info on the races- summed up just what I needed to know not to feel put off by them. With "only" one level holding them back, I might do a fire-haired guy to start after all. hehe Are the "subraces" something that came with D&D 3.5 or just a decision in making NWN2? One thing I don't like is the halfling appearance- essentially just a shrunk human. I like the spell Enlarge and want to see if an Enlarged halfling is exactly the same as a human (unlike, say, the bulbous-headed gnomes). Great about reading subfolders too... Being an organization nut that'll allow me to meddle without mucking things up. My NWN1 folder was always full of clone folders.

@MrKWMonk It seems my use of Steam cost me a whopping $8 extra then since I got it for $20. They go to discount status at times? I was seeing it going for $24-30 on eBay so thought it was better. I'm satisfied though as Steam was able to finally procure the right drivers for my graphics card since that got botched yrs ago. hehe On your later comments- I've found some annoying glitches with NWN1 camera control also- particularly the tendency to auto-zoom onto the PC when too close to a wall. This has killed or nearly killed me numerous times as I struggle to regain control while a monster goes to town on me. But, yes, sounds good that that's the worst you're finding...

@Semper You're right- the talking usually does involve only a single line or two and then text in BG and NWN conversations (though not in all, like the protracted Aribeth and Gend talking). It's definitely not quantity over quality I'm advocating, and I agree about how contrived and non-PC driven the cutscenes tend to look in, say, a DA:O. (The opening elf scene makes me want to side with the humans and shoot my pompous "partner." lol) The only game in which I've found regular cutscenes and voiced interactions that added to rather than detracted from the game was The Bard's Tale, but that's another story...

I just recall vividly the more brief but memorable voices of BG's Caldo and Krumm types, Sarevok, the old farmer north of the Friendly Arms Inn, the BG villain declarations ("Why don't we just skip the small talk and get right to the killin'?"), the many good NPC voices in both BG and NWN (even Imoen's whininess), as well as a lot of the monster sounds in NWN (bugbears being so humorous to hit and kill). That sort of quality isn't in the blase, used car dealership and household cleaning supplies advert voices that predominate in DA:O and Oblivion. (I could easily hear one of those characters say, "If we don't save the Empire from this menace, it will mean devastation to everyone, and also you won't get your dishes as sparkling clean as with the leading brand detergent.") It seems as if NWN2 has transferred PC voicesets from NWN1 for chars, so at least they knew to preserve a good thing if they can't outdo it. (Deekin was not an improvement...) I'm hoping to get Tomi's voice into NWN2 for at least one character, however that's done. (I'm sure someone has procured the overrides by now...)

Someone also mentioned the movie-quality music in NWN2, and I agree that it's quite nice on first hearing (never have liked NWN1's). BG's is still more memorable, but NWN2's is good so far (for char creation hehe)- haven't had the urge to turn it off yet.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 18 janvier 2012 - 02:57 .

[kevL]

Bhryaen wrote...

Is there a hak that adds the animation?

- don't think so. I'm not a huge fan of anim's but sometimes all i do is wonder, wtf are they doing??


nwn two-weapon atack :


my very first nwn2 ss :


( courtesy, Imageshack.us )

About the camera: there's been a lot of "Aaagh, my eyes!!" threads. Pain of Dungeon Eternal is working on a front-end loader for NwN2 that finally unlocks all the settings for all 3 camera modes (Exploration/nwn-style, Strategy/overhead-scroll, Character/over-the-shoulder). The problem with the camera tab under Options is, it doesn't actually have one or two very important adjusters, and the labelling of others are amiss. NeverLauncher is still in alpha/beta testing, but i helped test its camera config and am convinced its the way to go ... unless ya really like fiddling with .ini files.

- here's the main thread on that : Camera Configration Support


Other: since you say you've been patching NwN w/ CC, you'll want to head over to the Vault and spend a few days there searching & snagging stuff ya want fer NwN2 ... reading descriptions and comments is a pretty good way to figure out how things work in the Player Folder (myDocs->NwN2) Sounds like we'll have horses soon