90 réponses à ce sujet

[Jugo616]

Wouldn't that mean that Bioware would need to introduse Kratos to the game Chm... Knight_Commander Kratos... Sounds good.

[LobselVith8]

Bookman230 wrote...

Speaking as a player who always roleplays as a nonbeliver, I think The Maker ending up being real in story wouldn't be that bad, and may even be an interesting development if handled right. The key would be not turning the PC into an automatic lover of the being at sight.  Instead, allow the choices to be beliving and joyous("I knew you were real!"if you played as a beliver of course) disebeliving("Impossible! You're obviously just a Faith spirit!" this PC could just use various logical possibilities to try and sustain his belief that The Maker is fake) or rude(You're real? So what? doesn't mean I like you" this character would accept he's real, but still hate him and badmouth him).

I don't see much of a point to it, really. What made Dragon Age: Origins credible for its 'realistic' feel was that everyone was in the dark about the "truth" as we are in the real world. Morrigan's affirmation about magic being real to her, and the dichotomy with Leliana's spiritual beliefs, was a nice contrast that would be lost by making any of the particular faiths of the people in Thedas "true" over the other.

Bookman230 wrote...

If the character, whether it be Hawke or the Warden or a new PC) accepts him as real, that doesn't mean they'll be nice. Allow options to bring up things like the anti-mage or humans above others beliefs of the Chantry and possibly him. Call him out on leaving his children, the people of Theadas, to fester and boil instead of fixing his mistake and making them better. Basically, if the Maker or any other god turns out to be real, allow the Atheist PC to become a Dystheist(The Maker is lazy) or a Maltheist(The Maker is evil).

I, for one, would think it to be a interesting development and honestly a bit fun. What do you guys think? 

Hawke is Andrastian, the player isn't allowed to have Hawke be an atheist. Only The Warden can be addressed as an atheist.

[whykikyouwhy]

Where is it declared that Hawke is Andrastian? While (s)he may have spent some time in or around the Lothering chantry, that alone does not designate or establish faith. So too, phrases like "Maker (verb) you" or whatnot do not mean that Hawke follows that religion - merely that Hawke is aware of (belief in) the Maker. I know plenty of people IRL who may not believe in God but will use the name of God for blessings and curses alike - it's a familiar part of the lexicon to some.

[LobselVith8]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Where is it declared that Hawke is Andrastian? While (s)he may have spent some time in or around the Lothering chantry, that alone does not designate or establish faith. So too, phrases like "Maker (verb) you" or whatnot do not mean that Hawke follows that religion - merely that Hawke is aware of (belief in) the Maker. I know plenty of people IRL who may not believe in God but will use the name of God for blessings and curses alike - it's a familiar part of the lexicon to some.

If you're looking for one example, in Hawke's dialogue with his (or her) love interest, where Hawke declares that Leandra is with the Maker now.

[esper]

Only in one dialog, and that might be as much Leandra's faith as Hawke. If a relative of mine who believed in a god died I might just have expressed myself that way even if I am agnostic. Also it is not in all Li dialogs. I know my Hawke has never said that line and never will since she lost Faith when he little sister god squashed by an ogre.

[whykikyouwhy]

There's also some dialogue where Sebastian playfully comments on Hawke not holding anything sacred (paraphrasing) - that may be indication that Hawke is not devout, approaches the faith with a sense of humor, or does not believe at all. I don't think using the Maker's name is indicative of belief in the Maker - the Maker is a familiar aspect of Thedan society, referenced in word and/or deed of the day-to-day. It would probably be difficult to *not* use "the Maker" in everyday language.

I don't think there is anything so firmly stated in dialogue that would prevent a player from role-playing Hawke as a non-believer or atheist. I could be wrong and may have missed something, but in my playthroughs, I never ran into any instance of solid declared faith.

[LobselVith8]

Hawke's dialogue about Leandra doesn't indicate that Hawke thinks his mother thinks she would be with the Maker, though. Not to mention Hawke's battlecries have religious connotations, with the Champion of Kirkwall saying, such as the battlecry: "May Andraste guide you!" The point is, the player isn't given an option for Hawke to be atheist in the same way the player is given the option to address that The Warden is an atheist. I made a thread about "Why can't Hawke be an atheist?" a while back.

[esper]

Yeah, and we had the same discussion there. I still curse religiosly and use the religion thropes in my langue beside being agnostic that is just the way it works. if you Hawke is an atheist avoid that parahrase. You have three option, pick one of the other two. I know they might not be as nice, but that is how it is, you only have limited choice. It was the same with the warden, sometimes you just had to choose the least out of character line.

[whykikyouwhy]

I remember that thread, and I also remember that forumites had varied opinions on the matter. Did a dev ever give a statement attesting to Hawke's declared faith? I'm not in a position to wade through 19+ pages right now.

Without a dev statement though, I would still argue that Hawke's personal religious convictions can be up to the player. "Andraste guide you" and similar comments, blessings, curses, etc can easily be used because they are part of a person's upbringing - a person hears such things and adopts them. When a person sneezes, for instance, the common reaction may be to say "bless you" or "god bless you" and the blessing party may not in fact follow any particular faith or believe in any god.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If you're looking for one example, in Hawke's dialogue with his (or her) love interest, where Hawke declares that Leandra is with the Maker now.

Only if you choose to agree with Merrill's comment that Leandra is in a better place.

If you're romancing Fenris, when he says that death is a journey, Hawke sounds quite sceptical saying "I suppose they say you go back to the maker when you die" or "that just raises question.  Journey to where?"

[LobselVith8]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I remember that thread, and I also remember that forumites had varied opinions on the matter. Did a dev ever give a statement attesting to Hawke's declared faith? I'm not in a position to wade through 19+ pages right now.

The only dev comments were for people to behave, because there were some people who were irate that I had the audacity to suggest that there should have been an option for Hawke to be an atheist. According to Ariella, Gaider didn't think atheism should be an option. I've never read any such comment from Gaider myself, so I have no comment on the claim. To get back to your original question, there was never an official WoG on the issue.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Without a dev statement though, I would still argue that Hawke's personal religious convictions can be up to the player. "Andraste guide you" and similar comments, blessings, curses, etc can easily be used because they are part of a person's upbringing - a person hears such things and adopts them. When a person sneezes, for instance, the common reaction may be to say "bless you" or "god bless you" and the blessing party may not in fact follow any particular faith or believe in any god.

I don't see an atheist Hawke telling a defeated foe, "Let [God] guide you."

[Xilizhra]

I don't see an atheist Hawke telling a defeated foe, "Let [God] guide you."

This may be because you're looking at it from a modern perspective, where it's only a minority of curses/wishes/etc. that reference religious matters. Back in earlier times, I believe nearly all of them did, and such may be the case in DA2.

[LobselVith8]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Some how I think the Maker being real would enrage the staunch atheists who play. Not every atheist, but the ones who argue and argue that there isn't a God.

Thedas isn't the real world, and I think plenty of people understand the distinction (both religious and atheist fans). I think people simply want options to effectively immerse themselves in the narrative - the Elven and Dwarven Wardens, for example, can have beliefs that don't adhere to the Andrastian version that are held by some Andrastian characters, for example, or thinking that an apostate Hawke might share Morrigan's views when it comes to not believing in the Maker and the Chantry's attitude towards mages.

[whykikyouwhy]

Well, I could easily see Hawke, or any protagonist, telling a defeated foe "let (insert divine being) guide you." It's a statement not necessarily stemming from the PC's own conviction, but could be an acknowledgement (honorable or mocking) of the foe's faith - "let *your* god guide you." I think it boils down to how you want to role-play, and what kind of intent that you want to put behind your character's actions.

Personally, I don't think there is enough within the game to *prevent* role-playing as an atheist. But hey, that's just my take on the matter.

[Xilizhra]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Well, I could easily see Hawke, or any protagonist, telling a defeated foe "let (insert divine being) guide you." It's a statement not necessarily stemming from the PC's own conviction, but could be an acknowledgement (honorable or mocking) of the foe's faith - "let *your* god guide you." I think it boils down to how you want to role-play, and what kind of intent that you want to put behind your character's actions.

Personally, I don't think there is enough within the game to *prevent* role-playing as an atheist. But hey, that's just my take on the matter.

Unfortunately, the only way to politely respond to Merrill's condolences about Leandra's death is "She's with the Maker now."

[whykikyouwhy]

@Xilizhra - But couldn't that be Hawke's acknowledgement of his/her mother's faith, and not personal belief? It's not as nuanced as Aveline's comment about Wesley and the Maker, but the same implications can be there, depending on your perspective.

[Xilizhra]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Xilizhra - But couldn't that be Hawke's acknowledgement of his/her mother's faith, and not personal belief? It's not as nuanced as Aveline's comment about Wesley and the Maker, but the same implications can be there, depending on your perspective.

I suppose. That's how I more or less interpreted it, anyway.

[Abispa]

I think that Hawke is specifically written to allow the player to head-canon a believer or agnostic Hawke because of or in spite of any specific line of dialog. For my part, MOST of my Hawkes are agnostic leaning toward the idea that there may be something to that Maker business, if just as a small hope that the better parts of Chantry dogma are true.

And while I kind of like the idea of us never seeing the actual Maker (if one appears I'd like a head-canon option that just says it's a super-powered being but not the TRUE Maker), I think that it is for the best that the Elven Gods and Forgotten Ones are left unconfirmed as well. There are lots of polytheists left in the world today, and none of their gods are confirmed either.

[The Six Path of Pain]

 Kind of an old thread but i'll respond anyway ...If we were to find out that the Maker was real My canon Hawke(Female Mage/Scarlet Hawke) though she had some doubts about his actual existense,she would willingly accept that he is the Maker and bow down before him as any good Andrastian would.My canon Warden however(Male Warrior/Turles Cousland) would as you said question his credibility and just call him a Spirit of Faith or something like that.Then once he is finally convinced,he will acccept that he is the so called Maker,BUT he still woudn't acknowledge or worship him,as he doesn't believe or wants his life to revolve around idolizing any deities,prophets(Chantry) or philosophy(Qun).He would then procced to tell the Maker to SUCK IT as he has his duties as a Grey Warden to perform.The new character for DA3 meh i'm going to wait and see how much freedom you actually have with him/her before deciding what he/she believes in.Hopefully you can actually choose what they could believe in instead of having the choice made for you...i'm looking at you Hawke:bandit:

[LobselVith8]

I would like to see the option to be an atheist return.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 27 mai 2012 - 07:27 .

[Sons of Horus]

I would like an atheist option to make sense. If the character has had an upbringing in the circle, or is nobility then they should worship the maker to some extent. If they are a dwarf or an elf they should start off with there own races religious outlook. Yes I know people use Morrigan as an example but hers would be a singular view given she was raised by Flemeth and hasn’t really had contact with the chantry (remember that Alistair made fun of her for it).

However if during the course of the game that he had a crisis of faith or what ever, that would make for some interesting options, perhaps open up new dialog and directions wile closing off dialog others. Party members may even trust you more or less . But seeing how Dragon Age 2 turned out I would just prefer if they acknowledged if he was a mage/reaver /bloodmage or whatever.

As for Atheist maker the joke wears pretty thin after a wile. If we did see the maker, I would think he would have his own agenda.

[Homebound]

from my understanding, the maker is only as real as the believers make him or her out to be. In the dragon age expansion, i think "Justice" said what was in the fade is affected by what people dreamed or thought about..So the Maker IS real, but not because the Maker is what the DA in-universe thinks he is.

It doesnt matter if the maker is real or not, people will believe what they want either ways. This topic is moot.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 27 mai 2012 - 11:04 .