40 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

The Tevinters worshipped the Old Gods, who were dragons and are now the Archdemons, corrupted by the Blight. We see the Archdemon is now not that much larger than a High Dragon and does not possess any powers that would have made them all that special (aside from the near-immortality unless killed by a Gray Warden).

So my question is... why did they worship them? We know that the gods were patrons of various things, like music and beauty, but how would we know this? Did Uriel simply not kill and devour beautiful people playing music? Or did he/she/it possess powers that are not seen in the Archdemon form?

Because if not, then they would be worshipping a tough dragon, but just a dragon nonetheless. If Dumat was killed in the First Blight multiple times before the Gray Warden solution was devised, then we know that the gods themselves could have been defeated in combat. And the Tevinters, always greedy for more power and arcane strength, would seem like the type to jump at the chance for some dragon-god blood to use in blood magic.

It just seems odd to me that the Tevinters, who were able to accomplish things that were never before attempted through means of magic, would bow to creatures that could be taken down by a small band of adventurers once they got through its darkspawn army (which the Old Gods wouldn't have had pre-Blight).

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2012 - 04:15 .

[Xilizhra]

The Maker doesn't even provably exist and look how far he's come. The Old Gods only made themselves known through voices, and Dumat's altar could produce miracles even despite Dumat being supposedly dead.

[Heimdall]

We know Dumat could speak to the magisters through the Fade, they must have had unusual abilities compared to other dragons, somehow.

[MisterJB]

Some people are easily impressed.

[Vincent Laww]

I suspect the Old Gods markedly improved the lives of the Tevinter Magisters. They probably provided a bacquet of knowledge to the Magisters of old, and most likey possessed fantastical powers. All we can really to do is conject.

[Blacklash93]

The Old Gods did posess powerful magic, although they don't use much of it in the final battle of Origins.

In Asunder the crew get sucked up into a dream where they have to fight the Archdemon again and it sounded much more menacing there. It could summon lightning storms, roar in such volume and tone that you'd fall to your knees and have your head feel like it would pop open, and create hurricane-force winds with a flap of its wings.

Does that power, no matter how mighty, merit worship? To some, perhaps, but keep in mind that we don't know everything about the Old Gods and that power is not the only thing that defines a god. There could be a divine nature to them we don't know about. As far as being creators, the only thing they've created that we know of is dragons in Thedas.

I'm also interested in how the Magisters attributed certain concepts to the Old Gods. Is there something about their minds that embodies things like beauty and silence? Or were what they represented just a fabrication of the Magisters?

[Ponendus]

It's a good question. I suspect the reason is the delivery of 'power'. For example Corypheus in Legacy calling on Dumat for power to defeat Hawke & Co. Worshipping the Old Gods may have been due to their belief that the Gods would deliver this power to them.

As to the Archdemon point: I imagine that the Old Gods in their true form are potentially more powerful then they are in Archdemon form. Perhaps they have limited power in the corporeal world, but higher power in the Fade or ... another realm of existence (such as the one Morrigan disappeared into)?

[standardpack]

MisterJB wrote...

Some people are easily impressed.

Hurray for game quotes!

[whykikyouwhy]

The codex entry on the Old Gods states, in part:

"Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons--ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath."

Thus, the Old Gods may have just taken the form of dragons - and perhaps this was just a physical manifestation, a way for mortals to comprehend their might. So, if they were indeed some form of deity, perhaps something ethereal, they would probably want to appear in such a way as to inspire fear, though, as Ponendus pointed out, that may not be their true form.

As Archdemons though, that dragon aspect is tainted/corrupted, and thus may be weakened than their original non-tainted form. So too, Archdemons are connected to the hive mind, which may supress their powers further, if at all (just speculation, mind you). That might allow for a band of adventurers (mighty adventurers that include Grey Wardens) to take the advantage, especially of an already wounded Archdemon.

[Augustei]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Why were the Old Gods worshipped?

For the same or similar reasons to why Emperor Augustus was

[JoeLaTurkey]

Because dragons are cool.

Modifié par JoeLaTurkey, 16 janvier 2012 - 12:25 .

[mousestalker]

There's also the 'worship me and feed me or do not worship me and I feed upon you' aspect.

[Fast Jimmy]

JoeLaTurkey wrote...

Because dragons are cool.

Joe La Turkey, your Wrex rap is going to be burned into my memory for all time with its awesomeness.



But in line with the discussion, if the Old Gods were in fact just ancient dragons with powers beyond mortal comprehension, what possible reason would the Old Gods have for sending the Tevinter Magisters into the Golden City? Did the Old Gods not know about the corruption within? Or were they too trciked into opening that Pandora's box?

[whykikyouwhy]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But in line with the discussion, if the Old Gods were in fact just ancient dragons with powers beyond mortal comprehension, what possible reason would the Old Gods have for sending the Tevinter Magisters into the Golden City? Did the Old Gods not know about the corruption within? Or were they too trciked into opening that Pandora's box?

If Chantry lore is to be believed, at the point when the magisters are coerced into Rotten Twinkie City, the Old Gods are imprisoned. The magisters were given promises of power or whatnot (since we don't know exactly what they were told, and can only glean from Corypheus's statements) - possibly with the hope that such power, or the breaching of the city itself, would free the Old Gods.

How that would work, or whether or not the Old Gods knew about the corruption within (and thus were possibly hoping to taint and destory the Maker's children in some act of revenge??), then gets tangled with not knowing the true nature of the City itself - what it actually was at the time of that invasion.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Tevinters worshipped the Old Gods, who were dragons and are now the Archdemons, corrupted by the Blight. We see the Archdemon is now not that much larger than a High Dragon and does not possess any powers that would have made them all that special (aside from the near-immortality unless killed by a Gray Warden).

Isn't it just presumed, and therefore not entirely clear, that the Archdemons are corrupted Old Gods?

So my question is... why did they worship them? We know that the gods were patrons of various things, like music and beauty, but how would we know this? Did Uriel simply not kill and devour beautiful people playing music? Or did he/she/it possess powers that are not seen in the Archdemon form?

It is presumed that the Magisters of the Old Tevinter Imperium were taught (blood?) magic by the Old Gods. David Gaider has said it better here, in a different context, but regardless.

Because if not, then they would be worshipping a tough dragon, but just a dragon nonetheless. If Dumat was killed in the First Blight multiple times before the Gray Warden solution was devised, then we know that the gods themselves could have been defeated in combat. And the Tevinters, always greedy for more power and arcane strength, would seem like the type to jump at the chance for some dragon-god blood to use in blood magic.

Well, dragon cults also exist, the members of which do exactly that. Whether those cults originated from Tevinter is unclear.

It just seems odd to me that the Tevinters, who were able to accomplish things that were never before attempted through means of magic, would bow to creatures that could be taken down by a small band of adventurers once they got through its darkspawn army (which the Old Gods wouldn't have had pre-Blight).

When the Grey Wardens found out a way to take down the Archdemons, the Tevinters were probably already disillusioned about the Old Gods, seeing how the First Blight began after the Magisters invaded the Golden City, and had left Tevinter in ruins. And why would the Old Magisters have thought about taking down the Old Gods, when one of the Old Gods supposedly promised those Magisters all the power in the world?

[Gervaise]

My take on it all was that the old gods were extremely powerful Fade spirits which inhabited the mind and body of really ancient dragons. These creatures already had intellgience - probably far in excess of the common marbari and then the Fade Spirits enhanced this. They had already been contacting the Magisters through their dreams, so when they appeared in physical form, people naturally worshipped them. Some how or other (probably some other powerful Fade spirit or spirits) succeeded in trapping them underground. These spirits probably had a connection with the elves (their gods) and so in revenge the dragon gods gave the Magisters the knowledge (via their dreams) to defeat the elves, which may have included the means to banish the elf god spirits from the physical realm back to the Fade, leaving the elves weakened. Having removed one set of adverseries, then old gods then encouraged the Magisters to invade the Fade, possibly in search of the Fade spirit(s) which had imprisoned them. The rest, as they say, is history.

I am convinced the old gods were more than just powerful dragons and there has to be some connection between the disappearance of the elf gods at around the same time as the conquest of Arlathan and the later stories that Andraste told about the Maker. Even Sebastian admits they could be talking about the same spiritual force. Andraste would also appear to have been rooting around in old elven ruins if the sword she gave to Shartan is anything to go by and also the runes that were marked around the prison of the demon that has it in DA2. There may be more to be found in the old elf ruins and even old Tevinter ruins but the most siginficant are likely deep in Tevinter territory.

The attributes of the old gods may well be what the Fade spirits perceived to be upper most in the desires of the Magister. One of them was a god of slavery I seem to remember. Dumat was the god of silence possibly because that is what the Magisters wished to do to anyone who opposed them.

[Jugo616]

Meh... I dont like the idea of old gods being fade spirits. For the same reason I Dont like the idea of Flemeth being Old God, Elven god or an abomination. Some things should be unique and one of the kind.

[Heimdall]

Wait a moment, what if the old Gods are Dragon abominations? Say that ancient and powerful dragons were powerful enough (possibly in blood magic in their own right) to attract the interest of some considerably powerful spirits and they fused, not unlike Justice and Anders but more completely so that they were a singular being. That would account for vast magical power and the apparent dragon affiliation with blood magic (By which I refer to the dragon blood's ability to destroy the ashes).

The darkspawn taint, being wholly unknown to spirits of the Fade, may drive the abomination insane and reduce their ability to call upon much more than the physical abilities of the Dragon itself. Meaning an Archdemon is not a true representation of an Old God's power.

I think this is my favorite theory, I'm going with this.

[esper]

@Lord Aesir. To be fair we don't know tha the blood would actally destroy the ashes magical properties as the man who told us that was a raving lunatic.
That it didn't work might just be an explanation for Leliana to be alive if you killed her there.

[Heimdall]

esper wrote...

@Lord Aesir. To be fair we don't know tha the blood would actally destroy the ashes magical properties as the man who told us that was a raving lunatic.
That it didn't work might just be an explanation for Leliana to be alive if you killed her there.

Good point, though the Guardian did seem rather angry about it.  I never did it myself so I don't know his exact words.

[esper]

I only meta did it once to unlock reaver specialisation (all though I regret that know and wish I had the patience to play da:o through agaian and destroy those things) so I don't remember what he said, but as a Guardin of something I kinda understand that he would be mad if you inteted to destroy it even if it worked or not.
But I generally think that the Veil was very thin, non existant in the guantlet so I just don't trust my wardens eyes there.
That being said I like your dragon abormination idea.

[AlexXIV]

Well the thing is that if darkspawn can be magicians, why can't Archdemons? Hence my theory that the Archdemons are not really the Old Gods. But of course that's assuming common sense. If an Old God really existed I assume he/she would be able to waste entire armies. As I suppose Flemeth for example could. If she wanted.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:04 .

[Gervaise]

When I said Fade Spirit inhabiting a dragon, essentially what I was describing was an abomination but simply avoided that term since it conjures the wrong sort of image in my mind and in any case is a chantry term of description. The dragon could have been a willing or unwilling host but essentially received a great deal more power, particularly in the area of mind control and spiritual damage. The archdemon in DAO dealt spiritual damage with its breath. The spirit could have been a demon to begin with or an ordinary spirit which became warped. My guess is the former and the dragon was particularly attractive because of the enormous power it already possessed. So I agree with Lord Aesir that they were essentially dragon abominations and because the darkspawn taint essentially sends them mad, it reduces their effectiveness compared with their untainted self. This is why, I assume, Flemeth was eager to try and separate the old god's soul (the spirit part) from the tainted body and fuse it with a new life. In terms of uniqueness, whatever entity co-existed with the dragon was nothing like any fade spirit encountered thus far, so can't be categorised in the way the others are.

However, unless ancient dragons were very different to what is encountered in the games, whilst ordinary people might have worshipped them, I can't see powerful ancient Magisters bothering with them and thus the old gods must have been something more than ancient dragons. I am sure it is not just chantry stories but Tevinter histories that confirm that much of the magic that the Magisters used was originally taught to them by Dumat and the other old golds and thus it is likely they had very strong links with the Fade in order to have that much knowledge.

[Gervaise]

When I said Fade Spirit inhabiting a dragon, essentially what I was describing was an abomination but simply avoided that term since it conjures the wrong sort of image in my mind and in any case is a chantry term of description. The dragon could have been a willing or unwilling host but essentially received a great deal more power, particularly in the area of mind control and spiritual damage. The archdemon in DAO dealt spiritual damage with its breath. The spirit could have been a demon to begin with or an ordinary spirit which became warped. My guess is the former and the dragon was particularly attractive because of the enormous power it already possessed. So I agree with Lord Aesir that they were essentially dragon abominations and because the darkspawn taint essentially sends them mad, it reduces their effectiveness compared with their untainted self. This is why, I assume, Flemeth was eager to try and separate the old god's soul (the spirit part) from the tainted body and fuse it with a new life. In terms of uniqueness, whatever entity co-existed with the dragon was nothing like any fade spirit encountered thus far, so can't be categorised in the way the others are.

However, unless ancient dragons were very different to what is encountered in the games, whilst ordinary people might have worshipped them, I can't see powerful ancient Magisters bothering with them and thus the old gods must have been something more than ancient dragons. I am sure it is not just chantry stories but Tevinter histories that confirm that much of the magic that the Magisters used was originally taught to them by Dumat and the other old golds and thus it is likely they had very strong links with the Fade in order to have that much knowledge.

Modifié par Gervaise, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:34 .

[Blacklash93]

I still hold the belief that the Old Gods are vitally connected to dragons, somehow. Not coincidental stuff like "Dragon Abomination" or "Dragon Aspect" or such. Something about their nature seems inherently tied to dragons.

Dragons are described as being their children on the official Origins site, after all.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:38 .