3659 réponses à ce sujet

[dmex]

Lumikki wrote...

Dr Bob UK wrote...

Origin isn't spyware.

Origin client is spyware like.

Maybe not by normal defination of spyware.  

 
You can't change definitions of words to suit your explanation. 

 
As usually spyware has to stay hidden, but when it's forced, what's the different. Example if you install spyware in someone else computer and the person knows that there is spyware, but can't remove it. It doesn't make it any less spyware.

 
You can remove Origin.

 In my eyes any program that collects information from users activity (by intrusion of privacy), so that user it self doesn't know or can't stop this information collection and software will send that information ourside of users computer to someone else, is spyware.

Now just because we know that Origin collects information, if we read the EULA, what most people does not. Doesn't change facts that you can't avoid this information collection. Origin still collects information about users behavior, like what softwares user is using and so on.

Based on the API traces, File, Registry and Network activity logs I have collected, I can prove it doesn't collect this information, I've also yet seen any evidence from anyone anywhere proving claims made that Origin does actually collect this information. 

Modifié par dmex, 23 janvier 2012 - 04:50 .

[Metalrocks]

still no change about origin. €A surely wants to force their spyware on us.
sorry €A, you will not get my money until you finally realize how to treat a customer without thinking how to rip off people like arkwright from the british tv show "open all hours". i woulndt be surprise if he is your idol, your mentor to make money.

[Lumikki]

dmex wrote...

You can't change definitions of words to suit your explanation. 

Maybe not, but it's closest defination what fits in your software. You wanna go court and argue about it?

 
As usually spyware has to stay hidden, but when it's forced, what's the different. Example if you install spyware in someone else computer and the person knows that there is spyware, but can't remove it. It doesn't make it any less spyware.

 
You can remove Origin.

Yes, but then I can't play games what I buyed.

So, please don't insult your ex customers.

 In my eyes any program that collects information from users activity (by intrusion of privacy), so that user it self doesn't know or can't stop this information collection and software will send that information ourside of users computer to someone else, is spyware.

Now just because we know that Origin collects information, if we read the EULA, what most people does not. Doesn't change facts that you can't avoid this information collection. Origin still collects information about users behavior, like what softwares user is using and so on.

Based on the API traces, File, Registry and Network activity logs I have collected, I can prove it doesn't collect this information, I've also yet seen any evidence from anyone anywhere proving claims made that Origin does actually collect this information. 

If this would be true, then CHANGE the Origin client EULA reflect this excelent news.

Should not be hard to do, if you really work for EA?

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:04 .

[Dragoonlordz]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

In all seriousness though, EA just needs to come out and be very clear with its consumers.  If they want to know what Origin does, let them know.  There isn't any harm to it; in fact, it's beneficial and establishes a trust between them and the consumer.  You can't afford to be a silent sally when you have a monster of a business like Steam dominating the market space.

So forget the Steam and EA politics, the open-source programs, and whatever; just concentrate on giving folks solid answers instead of sidelining them with run-around answers and silence.

I thought Dmex already did that though. In the end there will always be a section of people who want no client even if it was the best client ever. They just don't want clients, there are also those who don't want it until it is as epic as their bias is towards Steam. In the end some people just won't get their way. My advice to them is keep hoping and fingers crossed for Dmex alternative to get approved (though unlikely) or push for Opt Out/Opt In inside the client because being a realist (imho) there comes a stage where your just pissing in a hurricane and spraying all over yourself.

Try to change the things you can change, the ones most likely to get closest to a compromise on that will be happy with. EA will not drop Origin and promoting their DD service over a few hundred or few thousand ME fans when they turn over around a billion each year.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:10 .

[Pupuppu]

dmex wrote...

Based on the API traces, File, Registry and Network activity logs I have collected, I can prove it doesn't collect this information, I've also yet seen any evidence from anyone anywhere proving claims made that Origin does actually collect this information. 

Can the customer also be informed what information exactly is transmitted via secure channels by the Origin client?

Speaking of Origin, can you tell me, why an English EA game, bought in the UK, forces me to register the German version?

Modifié par Pupuppu, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:07 .

[hidden185]

 http://dockets.justi...cv05680/249708/ 

Actually I would like to interject into this coversation and go directly back to what Chris Prestely said:
[quote]Chris Priestly wrote...

6) I’ve seen reports that Origin is spyware.  Is this true?
Origin is not spyware, and does not use or install spyware on user’s machines.  In order to allow Origin to install games and their patches for everyone to use, Origin implements a permission change that results in Windows, not Origin, reviewing the filenames in the ProgramData/Origin folder.   This is an ordinary Windows function, not an information-gathering process. 
[/quote]

Now let actually consider a definition of Spyware, for example, provided by Norton:
www.symantec.com/security_response/antispyware_approach.jsp#defining

[quote]

Defining Spyware and AdwareWhile there are many similarities across the definitions used by industry groups, academics, antispyware companies, and others, the industry has yet to arrive at a common description for this quickly evolving and often confusing area. Symantec defines spyware and adware as follows:Spyware: Programs that have the ability to scan systems or monitor activity and relay information to other computers or locations in cyberspace. Among the information that may be actively or passively gathered and disseminated by spyware are passwords, log-in details, account numbers, personal information, individual files, or other personal documents. Spyware may also gather and distribute information related to the user's computer, applications running on the computer, Internet browser usage, or other computing habits.Spyware frequently attempts to remain unnoticed, either by actively hiding or by simply not making its presence on a system known to the user. These types of programs can be downloaded from Web sites (typically in shareware or freeware), email messages, and instant messengers. Additionally, a user may unknowingly receive and/or trigger spyware by accepting a EULA from a software program linked to the spyware or by visiting a Web site that downloads the spyware with or without a EULA.
....

Symantec's definitions do not imply a value judgment on the appropriateness of spyware and adware programs or the businesses that support their development and distribution. Symantec's definitions describe the functionality of these programs so that they can then be classified according to their risk profile. [/qoute]

Now lets for a moment ignore the privacy issue. (just for a moment)  By the Norton's anti-spyware protocol defintion, then Origin is low-risk spyware because it collects information about on application called Orgin and Orgin's registered game applications regardless whether or not it sends privacy information.  Unlike other malicious forms of protocol defined spyware, Origin does it actively and visibly to the user.   In fact, Mr. Chris Presely is correct that Origin uses an ordinary Windows function, which is same Windows function that Windows Updates and make Windows Update Spyware.   In fact by protocol definition Window Update, Window's Help, Window's Fix-It, Apple Update, Itune's Update, Mcaffee's Update, Norton's Update, and even Spysweepers update are all low-risk spyware not just Origin or Steam. 

Notice now, that I underlined the sentance's with unnoticed.  Its important because is the fundamental difference between legal and protocol defintions of spyware.  For something to legally be considered spyware it must be passive and go unnoticed by the user.  So in the legal sense, Mr. Chris Presely is correct that Origin is not spyware because it activates this same Windows function that requests user approval each time it changes windows or sends information out.

Now for those of you nay-sayers still out there, the solution is simple you don't want spyware you don't let it install and change the Orgin system files to your behavior.  However, at least recognize its the same spyware you agree or agreed to each time you do a Window Update. (I mean this literally that the .txt and .dat file that stores you user information sends stuff out every time you install a new game or DLC.  For most normal applications its part of the, ""create a save point"", ""regesterion check", and/or "file check" sub-processes you see in the Setup window.  ((For you computer savy people, yes this same Window function sends out something every time you access and application like MS Word.  However, in the MS Word case its sending out a Kernel registery key (literally the .reg) to Microsoft.com server see if it matches the registery key that you registered on live.com or the actual server database with.  Because the .reg was created by Origin the first place, should not ever change, its not considered Spyware by Norton or even Window's protocol code. When it updates and installs something new it checks the entire orgin applications and all the other information files that may have changes as you played.))
If anything Origin need to have something so the user can specify how often and when it updates, which I pretty sure by the time I write this it already has or will have.

____________________________
[quote]Lumikki wrote...

[quote]Dr Bob UK wrote...

Origin isn't spyware.[/quote]
Origin client is spyware like. 

Maybe not by normal defination of spyware.  As usually spyware has to stay hidden, but when it's forced, what's the different. Example if you install spyware in someone else computer and the person knows that there is spyware, but can't remove it. It doesn't make it less spyware.

In my eyes any program that collects information from users, so that user it self doesn't know or can't stop this information collection and software will send that information ourside of users computer to someone else, is spyware. 

Now just because we know that Origin collects information, if we read the EULA, what most people does not. Doesn't change facts that you can't avoid this information collection. Origin still collects information about users behavior, like what softwares user is using and so on.

Only way to avoid this spying is STOP PLAYING EA GAMES, what are connected to Origin client. 
[/quote] 

Now I would like to move on to something different that I really never got an answer from Chris Presely about.

In EA/Orgin EULA there is a statement that says  "YOU UNDERSTAND  THAT BY THIS PROVISION, YOU AND EA FOREGO THE RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND HAVE A JURY TRIAL."  in a section about abitration.  If you read the about arbitration section there is the express intent that EA wants to resolve its issue via an alternative means first rather than going to court.

However, my issue with it is the fact that Playsation is being sued right now over this same clause in Fineman v. Sony Network Entertainment International LLC et al.
You can read documents about the case here:
http://dockets.justi...cv05680/249708/ 

My question was how close is EA legal team watching this case?

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

Only way to avoid this spying is STOP PLAYING EA GAMES, what are connected to Origin client. What means not installing Origin client.

Or unplug your internet cable after activation? 

[Ahglock]

dmex wrote...

Based on the API traces, File, Registry and Network activity logs I have collected, I can prove it doesn't collect this information, I've also yet seen any evidence from anyone anywhere proving claims made that Origin does actually collect this information. 

Then let me opt out of all data collection if it is so innocent, or let me segregate it in my system without it apparently being a banable offense etc.  For a program that isn't spyware and doesn't datamine it seems to be going pretty far out of its way to make sure that option is open for them at any opportunity.  

[Soulglow]

 I'm buying the PS3 version so I can sell it back to gamestop.

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Only way to avoid this spying is STOP PLAYING EA GAMES, what are connected to Origin client. What means not installing Origin client.

Or unplug your internet cable after activation? 

Nope, that doesn't work. Because it can send ALL the information when you do the activitation.
The information what is collected can be one time event.

(Notice, I'm not say it does, but it CAN)

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:32 .

[hidden185]

Pupuppu wrote...

dmex wrote...

Based on the API traces, File, Registry and Network activity logs I have collected, I can prove it doesn't collect this information, I've also yet seen any evidence from anyone anywhere proving claims made that Origin does actually collect this information. 

Can the customer also be informed what information exactly is transmitted via secure channels by the Origin client?

Speaking of Origin, can you tell me, why an English EA game, bought in the UK, forces me to register the German version?

Not normally unless you know how to access and monitor you reg-keys to create an API trace and activity log.  Some antivirus's applications especially Mcaffee do this normally.  In fact, I suspect that dmex used Mcaffee and has upped the heuristics and moddified the access-protocol defintions to basically moniter everything in order create his access log.

However, that same window's function I am talking about above actually warns you when its going to be sent, so you kind of have and idea when it sends it.  I have talked to the Microsoft developers extensively about it.  In fact, I am not sure exactly how to,  but I think there is a way to get either Window's Defender or Window's Firewall to either report or ask for permission every time the Origin applications sends any data not just information.

(*)In fact, I first heard about this function when asking Microsoft about Window's Defender and Window's Firewall

Modifié par hidden185, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:24 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Ahglock wrote...

dmex wrote...

Based on the API traces, File, Registry and Network activity logs I have collected, I can prove it doesn't collect this information, I've also yet seen any evidence from anyone anywhere proving claims made that Origin does actually collect this information. 

Then let me opt out of all data collection if it is so innocent, or let me segregate it in my system without it apparently being a banable offense etc.  For a program that isn't spyware and doesn't datamine it seems to be going pretty far out of its way to make sure that option is open for them at any opportunity.  

Frankly, the combination of what it was shown to do at one point, with the way the EULA read, shows intent. 

The way the EULA currently reads shows intent to go follow through with the earlier original intent. 

And yes, with Origin supposedly being innocent of all charges, EA is certainly going out of their way to make sure that it gets onto as many computers as possible and that they can revert to the earlier demostrated behavior.  EA goes so far as to regard common security measures that would prevent Origin from accessing most of a person's computer or from "reporting home" as "violations" and discussion of same as a banable offense on these forums. 

(Never mind that the customer isn't shown what's being sent back to EA.)

And even if none of that were happening, it wouldn't change my mind -- I will not install useless bloatware that does NOTHING for me and takes up system resources, just because some company insists on making it a prereq of running their software. 

[Siegdrifa]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Only way to avoid this spying is STOP PLAYING EA GAMES, what are connected to Origin client. What means not installing Origin client.

Or unplug your internet cable after activation? 

First, it would a pain to always activate / désactivate your internet connection for damn video game.
Second, i doubt it would stop origin for operating is data collection then send them away first time he can get online, bu prehaps Dmex can tell us more how operate Origin and the collecting data when in offline mod or internet cable unpluged ?

[Killjoy Cutter]

I received confirmations that the FTC and BBB processed and filed my complaints.

I encourage others to do the same.

[igneous.sponge]

dmex wrote...

igneous.sponge wrote...

1. Do you think it will be possible to use OpenOrigin as a direct replacement for the official Origin client for use with Origin-required games, such as Mass Effect 3?

1) Maybe.

To be honest, that does not sound at all encouraging. If OpenOrigin can't be used as a direct replacement for the official client for Origin-required games, then I'm afraid that will in large part defeat the purpose of OpenOrigin in the first place.

Now, I'm sure there will be a small section of people who (i) do not have any Origin-required games and thus are not required to use the official client; and (ii) will find the modularity and extra functionality you've advertised useful——but for the rest of us... what would be the point? If OpenOrigin couldn't be used as a true alternative for Origin-required games like ME3, then what would be the point of installing two Origin clients on our machines? This is particularly true since much of the extra functionality you've touted for OpenOrigin (e.g., social integration) is already planned for the official client.

With all due respect, dmex, I've been following this thread closely and it seems obvious that most of us who are, indeed, interested in OpenOrigin want a direct replacement for the official client (for use with ME3, etc.). If you can't make that happen, it would, of course, be understandable given the corporate culture in which you're embedded, but it sure would make a lot of people happy if you could. If you don't believe this to be possible, however—as indicated by your noncommittal response—then I must agree with KIrving and ask that you don't advertise OpenOrigin as a true alternative. It's disingenuous and manipulative.

Anyway, that probably came off harsher than I intended, but this is a meaningful and significant sticking point, and I hope you address it. Thanks again for your engagement with the community.

[Lumikki]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

dmex wrote...

Based on the API traces, File, Registry and Network activity logs I have collected, I can prove it doesn't collect this information, I've also yet seen any evidence from anyone anywhere proving claims made that Origin does actually collect this information. 

Then let me opt out of all data collection if it is so innocent, or let me segregate it in my system without it apparently being a banable offense etc.  For a program that isn't spyware and doesn't datamine it seems to be going pretty far out of its way to make sure that option is open for them at any opportunity.  

Frankly, the combination of what it was shown to do at one point, with the way the EULA read, shows intent. 

Yes, that's true, that's why I challenge dmex to change the EULA to match his/her own words.

Because there is MAJOR diffrence in this. Because as long it reads in EULA that they can collect data. EA can change Origin client behavior anytime anyway EULA allows them to do, WITHOUT informing customers about the change. It's like covering they future actions front of laws.

If EULA would read that they don't collect data, then they would HAVE TO ask from customers to accept new EULA (contract), if they would try to do something what's not covered by EULA  or other ways company would be breaking laws and can be sued.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:45 .

[ArkkAngel007]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

In all seriousness though, EA just needs to come out and be very clear with its consumers.  If they want to know what Origin does, let them know.  There isn't any harm to it; in fact, it's beneficial and establishes a trust between them and the consumer.  You can't afford to be a silent sally when you have a monster of a business like Steam dominating the market space.

So forget the Steam and EA politics, the open-source programs, and whatever; just concentrate on giving folks solid answers instead of sidelining them with run-around answers and silence.

I thought Dmex already did that though. In the end there will always be a section of people who want no client even if it was the best client ever. They just don't want clients, there are also those who don't want it until it is as epic as their bias is towards Steam. In the end some people just won't get their way. My advice to them is keep hoping and fingers crossed for Dmex alternative to get approved (though unlikely) or push for Opt Out/Opt In inside the client because being a realist (imho) there comes a stage where your just pissing in a hurricane and spraying all over yourself.

Try to change the things you can change, the ones most likely to get closest to a compromise on that will be happy with. EA will not drop Origin and promoting their DD service over a few hundred or few thousand ME fans when they turn over around a billion each year.

No offense to Dmex, as I haven't been following his posts closely since I don't have too many opportunities to post on here lately, but an alleged EA employee coming on to a forum is a far cry from an official release from EA Corporate offices.

And I realize there are people who don't want DRMs (I among them), or just don't want an alternative to Steam.  I respect that to a point and it's all well and good. 

But when you require a system to be installed on a personal machine to play a product that you know your primary consumer base will want to purchase, a bit of transparancy is not a difficult concept to realize and implement.  EA can change their EULA all they want, but the bad press and antagonism will remain the same until facts are disclosed to the consumers.

[Dragoonlordz]

Pretty sure Dmex has no say on what the legal department at EA do.

Also think they already do have to ask for your consent when change current EULA and you have to reply within 30 days. 

I think there is few issues from different people and those who are willing to make compromises might actually get something they want while those who refuse to move a inch might be left out in the cold in the end.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:51 .

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Pretty sure Dmex has no say on what the legal department at EA do.

Yeah, I know, that's the issue.

Dmex is telling that Origin client doesn't collect data now, but Dmex can't actually affect Origin client future behavior as long EA's legal deparment defines what the Origin clients can do.

In other words, Dmex word has no weight in reality in EA. It's misleading to say, that it doesn't collect information, even if it doesn't, as long in Origin EULA says it can collect information. Because legaly they can change the Origin client behavior any time they want, without informing they customers as long it's in origin EULA.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:55 .

[Johnsen1972]

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Pretty sure Dmex has no say on what the legal department at EA do.

Yeah, I know, that's the issue.

Dmex is telling that Origin client doesn't collect data now, but Dmex can't actually affect Origin client future behavior as long EA's legal deparment defines what the Origin clients can do.

In other words, Dmex word has no weight in reality in EA. It's misleading to say, that it doesn't collect information, even if it doesn't, as long in Origin EULA says it can collect information.

EA can change the EULA and Origin anytime and we cant do anything about it. That's the point.
People lost trust in EA because of the past EULAs and their Data Collection with Origin.
And now they force everyone to install their software that is able to spy on every computer.

Modifié par Johnsen1972, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:55 .

[PyroByte]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

@Pyro: Did you have it set to Offline mode when it was blocked?

No, if Origin is not able to connect it will automaticly launch in offline mode

I blocked all outgoing traffic of origin with windows firewall:



Edit: Origin never wandered outside the Origin folder while I had procmon running

Modifié par PyroByte, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:57 .

[Lumikki]

Johnsen1972 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Pretty sure Dmex has no say on what the legal department at EA do.

Yeah, I know, that's the issue.

Dmex is telling that Origin client doesn't collect data now, but Dmex can't actually affect Origin client future behavior as long EA's legal deparment defines what the Origin clients can do.

In other words, Dmex word has no weight in reality in EA. It's misleading to say, that it doesn't collect information, even if it doesn't, as long in Origin EULA says it can collect information.

EA can change the EULA and Origin anytime and we cant do anything about it. That's the point.

Yes, they can change the EULA, but they have inform customers about that. Meaning customers has to accept the new EULA. EULA is contract.

But any change inside the contract, as not breakign it, is allowed behind customers back.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:57 .

[Johnsen1972]

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, they can change the EULA, but they have inform customers about that. Meaning custoemrs has to accept the new EULA. EULA is contract.

Yes and if you dont want to accept the new EULA you wont get your money back.

Modifié par Johnsen1972, 23 janvier 2012 - 05:57 .

[Lumikki]

Johnsen1972 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, they can change the EULA, but they have inform customers about that. Meaning custoemrs has to accept the new EULA. EULA is contract.

Yes and if you dont want to accept the new EULA you wont get your money back.

Maybe, but I can unistall the software as knowing that I don't anymore accept the new EULA.
But actions done behind my back can go unnotice. Huge difference there. That's why what's in EULA is so important.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 06:01 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Pretty sure Dmex has no say on what the legal department at EA do.

Yeah, I know, that's the issue.

Dmex is telling that Origin client doesn't collect data now, but Dmex can't actually affect Origin client future behavior as long EA's legal deparment defines what the Origin clients can do.

In other words, Dmex word has no weight in reality in EA. It's misleading to say, that it doesn't collect information, even if it doesn't, as long in Origin EULA says it can collect information.

I think and I'm trying to be fair here that Dmex is only trying to explain what the client does now and how it is designed with added information about the one he is designing on his own and hoping to get approved. I do not think he can tell what EA may do in future as neither can any of us (not with fortune cookies, tea leaves or magic 8 balls).

Let me ask you this what exactly word for word would you want in the EULA instead? Honest question and if you cannot answer that then you have very little ground to stand on because it comes across as you don't know what you want. If answer that do not want any information sent then we both know that is not going to happen. Dmex said what it sends and what it looks at so best you may hope for (imho) is wording exactly what he said it currently does (including it's own client and game files).

It says in the EULA itself if they make changes they have to get consent from you and show you the new EULA.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 janvier 2012 - 06:09 .