3659 réponses à ce sujet

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

kofelover wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

kofelover wrote...

Well, however if may be interpreted, sales for the PC aren't exactly going the way EA would like I presume:

Week Ending (VGChartz - USA presales):

1/14 589
1/21 591

So, a net gain of two copies ......

I think they expected the pc sales to be low , they're more interested in 360/PS3 sales.I think the PS3 version is a way of trying to offset low PC sales.(just my opinion , not a fact)

I respect your opinion.  But if they aren't interested in PC sales, why push Origin?  They could have just marketed it like the previous games.

No , thats my point.They aren't interested in PC sales at all , if they were they would have solved this origin issue already.That's why I think they decided to concentrate on the comsole sales , the end result being pc supports have left in the cold if they don't accept origin.

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...


Then there is no helping you. There is a section of people with different aspects they are unhappy with, but the much smaller group within those sections; the ones who want no clients at all or no sale and the ones like yourself who seems to want the same as the other group in this sub section but is using a different method are simply not I think going to get their way. There is only so much Dmex can do and only so much EA is willing to give.

Yeah, I know.

If dmex can help others, that's fine. But those who dmex helps have allready accepted Origin clients data collection. For them it's question as what data. For me any data is unacceptable.

The rest I think are more flexible and whether thats explaining what does from Dmex and building some trust in giving people information about Origin, how EA procedures work with regard to the whole ban aspect being fixed, the passing on message to legal department about concerns people have with the EULA, the trying to make open source client which hopes will be approved of which will supply source code and let people see exactly what his version does, the ones who are pushing for simple opt in/opt out within the client. All those stand a chance of getting somewhere. The ones in the sub section I think are going to be disappointed in a big way and without doubt if hope to get what they want prior to ME3 release. I support the Opt In/Opt Out because it is what Steam has and those who like Steam may be appeased / okay with having similar functions in Origin.

Yes, the option like in Steam to say no/yes to data collection is what's required. That would solve a lot of people issues.

Even if that doesn't solve mine. I lost the Trust to EA. Also DRM system is wrongly design to my taste, because it's central to Origin client. That doesn't allow games without Origin, even if it could have be done better, it's maybe too late. Too bad.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:11 .

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

SpringMan wrote...

Ok but they can't go back time and change the past.It's just buying defective tires or bad food and the place where you got them at offers for you to come in for a free exchange.Now are you telling me because they screwed up once you wouldn't accept the offer before asking for a refund.

If the dealer offers you tires you can only mount with a special four-way socket wrench that has an in-built camera and needs internet access? Well i guess when he promises that the camera won't take any photos for now it's ok.

All I'm saying is if the company been good to you for a number of years and their trying to fix the problem.Then most of time you give them a chance to fix the problem before you demand a refund.Now if the company is the first time you used them , they have a bad reputation/nasty to you then by all means you demand a refund(and report them to the BBB).

Modifié par LOST SPARTANJLC, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:12 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Annoyed Dragon wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Annoyed Dragon wrote...

I don't know if this question has been asked but does ME3 automaticly assumes that your ea account is the same as your origin account.

What I mean by this is when you install ME2 or  DA2 it requests your ea account email and password which can be different to your origin account is ME3 the same?

Personally I hope so.    

Your EA account is your Origin account, it just changed name. When I install ME2 which did again only day ago the same account information is used as my Origin account because they are same account now. Unless you have something wierd going on. 

Well I suppose it a little strange best way to put is like this:

Person A & B shares B's ea account in playing games but B is uncomfortable about putting their email through Origin so A makes a account with his own email while redeming their physical copies of ea games they have but the problem is all of A's DLC is under B's account.

So that is my problem, any ideas.  

You melted my brain... Hope your happy. 


So basically...

Ring or use web chat on EA site speak to them, provided you can prove you are the account owners and it is your DLC etc they can move it around between accounts if that helps.

Sounds to me might aswell move all DLC to A's account...

[jeweledleah]

Thank you Dragoonlordz and wolfsite for your answers.

now if only I could find out about modding

I still don't like the idea of having to have origin on my computer, that original EULA wording left bad taste in my mouth (not to mention having to run extra client for just one game), but if openorigin is a replacement, rather then compliment and will be possible to set up for minimum usage, I'll be fine with that

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


Then there is no helping you. There is a section of people with different aspects they are unhappy with, but the much smaller group within those sections; the ones who want no clients at all or no sale and the ones like yourself who seems to want the same as the other group in this sub section but is using a different method are simply not I think going to get their way. There is only so much Dmex can do and only so much EA is willing to give.

Yeah, I know.

If dmex can help others, that's fine. But those who dmex helps have allready accepted Origin clients data collection. For them it's question what data. For me any data is unacceptable.

The rest I think are more flexible and whether thats explaining what does from Dmex and building some trust in giving people information about Origin, how EA procedures work with regard to the whole ban aspect being fixed, the passing on message to legal department about concerns people have with the EULA, the trying to make open source client which hopes will be approved of which will supply source code and let people see exactly what his version does, the ones who are pushing for simple opt in/opt out within the client. All those stand a chance of getting somewhere. The ones in the sub section I think are going to be disappointed in a big way and without doubt if hope to get what they want prior to ME3 release. I support the Opt In/Opt Out because it is what Steam has and those who like Steam may be appeased / okay with having similar functions in Origin.

Yes, the option like in Steam to say no/yes to data collection is what's required. That would solve a lot of people issues.

Even if that doesn't solve mine. I lost the Trust to EA. Also DRM system is wrongly design to my taste, because it's central to Origin client. That doesn't allow games without Origin, even if it could have be done better, it's maybe too late. Too bad.

It still takes time to add a feature like that in their , even if it is going to be in open origin.At the earliest I would expect a few months along with their needing to be alot of demand for it.

[Dragoonlordz]

jeweledleah wrote...

Thank you Dragoonlordz and wolfsite for your answers.

now if only I could find out about modding

I still don't like the idea of having to have origin on my computer, that original EULA wording left bad taste in my mouth (not to mention having to run extra client for just one game), but if openorigin is a replacement, rather then compliment and will be possible to set up for minimum usage, I'll be fine with that

The modding I must admit I have no answer for. The Origin client does not affect ME2 mods when I use it, however since ME3 has multiplayer depending on if there are any anti-cheat systems built in I can't rule out an effect. I don't know if Dmex has answer to that one.

If doesn't have any anti-cheat systems in Origin for ME3 or have any in ME3 itself then I don't think will be problem. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:18 .

[SpringMan]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

SpringMan wrote...

Ok but they can't go back time and change the past.It's just buying defective tires or bad food and the place where you got them at offers for you to come in for a free exchange.Now are you telling me because they screwed up once you wouldn't accept the offer before asking for a refund.

If the dealer offers you tires you can only mount with a special four-way socket wrench that has an in-built camera and needs internet access? Well i guess when he promises that the camera won't take any photos for now it's ok.

All I'm saying is if the the company been good to you for a number of years and their trying to fix the problem.Then most of time you give them a chance to fix the problem before you demand a refund.Now if the company is the first time you used them , they have a bad reputation/nasty to you then by all means you demand a refund(and report them to the BBB).

I was just modifying the analogy to be a little more fitting here. EA *has* a pretty bad reputation among gamers right now, and they're well aware of that. I wouldn't be surprised if they had their PR department prepare a major campaign right now, that would explain the vague information policy.
Then again, if you bought your tires from Ubisoft they'd probably melt when being mounted on more than three cars.

[SovereignWillReturn]

The amount of posts that have rage/comical value in this thread is astronomical. Pure Gold.
I'm so glad I have an Xbox360.

[jamesp81]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...
For every post that tells the truth about what the software does , same people will ignore it unfortunately.

And what is the truth? There is so much hysteria going on

Their is over one time activation through origin , alternative origin and that origin even though proved not to be spywware by dmex.I admit I thought at first dmex was a forum hacker , but why won't anyone trust his word about origin.

The only ones I have seen are people saying his word is invalid because the EULA is not specific enough for them or ones who just don't trust what EA might do in the future. I don't think many if any are saying he's wrong in what it does currently. They just don't have trust to think will remain that way.

Yeah , what could EA possibly do with the information anyway.EA knows the minute they start collecting/using private information , it's all over for them.I just don't know what EA could say or promise that would change someones mind.

Change the EULA to guarantee that personally identifiable information will not be collected except as needed to process a purchase, and that such data will be purged beyond recovery once the transaction is complete.

Put that in the EULA, and I'm onboard.

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

The amount of posts that have rage/comical value in this thread is astronomical. Pure Gold.
I'm so glad I have an Xbox360.

Me Too , but I still care for the PC folks.

[jamesp81]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Pretty sure was mentioned by Dmex and others that the only information scans (maybe sends) is registry, it's own games folder and own client information which includes by law (IP and MAC address). I think that is what he said it does and noone has been able to refute that with evidence. So the EULA won't say does not send anything. It's whether what it does send is acceptable to you. How do you think it will know what updates you will need if can't send back information about what version you have, again with activation sending information as well as maybe DRM checks making sure the game application hasn't been cracked or tampered with (which is reasonable thing to do to be honest imho). So by your own wording your breaking your own worded EULA.

You seem to nitpicking my words. What I say, EULA should reflect WHAT the Origin client actually does.
Now you say, it does that.

I say Origin client acts like Spyware.
Dmes say it doesn't.
I say, but in even Origin EULA says it does, it's action are like Spyware.

Now we start argue about data collection and what's spyware. You self sayed it collects data.

NOT ACCEPTABLE EULA. I don't accept ANY data collection for ANY reason.

Do I look like I'm happy customer when it comes related Origin client?

I don't know what to tell you , mutiple users and an unofficial cofirmed ea member has told you what it does.

Or rather what it does right now. 

Not what it once did, and not what EA reserves the "right" to have it do again in the future. 

Indeed

[jamesp81]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Ok , so if the eula were re-written then you wouldn't have a problem with origin.

Never said that.  I believe the EULA has been edited several times.  For me, personally, Origin is just useless baggage.

Same here.  Had Origin and its EULA been completely well-behaved, clean, and above board from the beginning, and the intention to require it had been honestly communicated from the beginning, I might have been willing to hold my nose and install it long enough to play ME3. 

The long lies of omision regarding Origin, its behavior in earlier tests, the EULA, and EA's continuing blatant deceit as to the intent and nature of Origin, have made it impossible for me to ever, in good conscience, install Origin on any computer I use or own. 

Ok but they can't go back time and change the past.It's just buying defective tires or bad food and the place where you got them at offers for you to come in for a free exchange.Now are you telling me because they screwed up once you wouldn't accept the offer before asking for a refund.

Rewording the EULA, as I detailed above, would correct the trust issues.

[Killjoy Cutter]

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Johnsen1972 wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

It says no private data , unless your enter the data through their service which would be your profile on origin(which is optional).Dmex last page talked about what it collected.

So what kind of software you installed isnt private data? I doubt it!

Well the software I install doesn't take pictures . files , video's or other secrets I may or may not have.Which is why I have origin on my computer to begin with , saying it again I'm big on privacy.But data collection comes with using any program (especially in the internet age), as long as it's not uploading private data.
 

The fact that you have any particular software installed at all is a private matter, end of story, regardless of what it does.  It's not just the data that's private.

[MingWolf]

jamesp81 wrote...

Change the EULA to guarantee that personally identifiable information will not be collected except as needed to process a purchase, and that such data will be purged beyond recovery once the transaction is complete.

Put that in the EULA, and I'm onboard.

Hah!  If they actually put that on there, word by word, I'm sure it would appease a lot of people.  Unfortunately, I strongly doubt they ever will.  They always have to make things... complicated :happy:

[Killjoy Cutter]

SpringMan wrote...

Ok but they can't go back time and change the past.It's just buying defective tires or bad food and the place where you got them at offers for you to come in for a free exchange.Now are you telling me because they screwed up once you wouldn't accept the offer before asking for a refund.

If the dealer offers you tires you can only mount with a special four-way socket wrench that has an in-built camera and needs internet access? Well i guess when he promises that the camera won't take any photos for now it's ok.

Good analogy.

[Dragoonlordz]

jamesp81 wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Ok , so if the eula were re-written then you wouldn't have a problem with origin.

Never said that.  I believe the EULA has been edited several times.  For me, personally, Origin is just useless baggage.

Same here.  Had Origin and its EULA been completely well-behaved, clean, and above board from the beginning, and the intention to require it had been honestly communicated from the beginning, I might have been willing to hold my nose and install it long enough to play ME3. 

The long lies of omision regarding Origin, its behavior in earlier tests, the EULA, and EA's continuing blatant deceit as to the intent and nature of Origin, have made it impossible for me to ever, in good conscience, install Origin on any computer I use or own. 

Ok but they can't go back time and change the past.It's just buying defective tires or bad food and the place where you got them at offers for you to come in for a free exchange.Now are you telling me because they screwed up once you wouldn't accept the offer before asking for a refund.

Rewording the EULA, as I detailed above, would correct the trust issues.

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

[jamesp81]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Ok , so if the eula were re-written then you wouldn't have a problem with origin.

Never said that.  I believe the EULA has been edited several times.  For me, personally, Origin is just useless baggage.

Same here.  Had Origin and its EULA been completely well-behaved, clean, and above board from the beginning, and the intention to require it had been honestly communicated from the beginning, I might have been willing to hold my nose and install it long enough to play ME3. 

The long lies of omision regarding Origin, its behavior in earlier tests, the EULA, and EA's continuing blatant deceit as to the intent and nature of Origin, have made it impossible for me to ever, in good conscience, install Origin on any computer I use or own. 

Ok but they can't go back time and change the past.It's just buying defective tires or bad food and the place where you got them at offers for you to come in for a free exchange.Now are you telling me because they screwed up once you wouldn't accept the offer before asking for a refund.

Rewording the EULA, as I detailed above, would correct the trust issues.

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

I am not aware of any law that requires the retention of IP and MAC  addresses.  I'm calling BS on that one until someone shows it to me in US  federal statutory law.

I consider MAC and IP  addresses personal information which should not be logged.  Both can be used to uniquely identify someone very easily.  Other personally identifiable information includes telephone number, address, and credit card number(s).

[Dragoonlordz]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

I am not aware of any law that requires the retention of IP and MAC  addresses.  I'm calling BS on that one until someone shows it to me in US  federal statutory law.

I consider MAC and IP  addresses personal information which should not be logged.  Both can be used to uniquely identify someone very easily.  Other personally identifiable information includes telephone number, address, and credit card number(s).

In Europe we do. I believe it's called the Data Retention Directive. I cannot answer for USA because I don't live there.

According to the directive, member states will have to store citizens' telecommunications data for six to 24 months stipulating a maximum time period. Under the directive the police and security agencies will be able to request access to details such as IP address and time of use of every email, phone call and text message sent or received. A request to access the information will be possible only with a court order. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:44 .

[PyroByte]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Ok , so if the eula were re-written then you wouldn't have a problem with origin.

Never said that.  I believe the EULA has been edited several times.  For me, personally, Origin is just useless baggage.

Same here.  Had Origin and its EULA been completely well-behaved, clean, and above board from the beginning, and the intention to require it had been honestly communicated from the beginning, I might have been willing to hold my nose and install it long enough to play ME3. 

The long lies of omision regarding Origin, its behavior in earlier tests, the EULA, and EA's continuing blatant deceit as to the intent and nature of Origin, have made it impossible for me to ever, in good conscience, install Origin on any computer I use or own. 

Ok but they can't go back time and change the past.It's just buying defective tires or bad food and the place where you got them at offers for you to come in for a free exchange.Now are you telling me because they screwed up once you wouldn't accept the offer before asking for a refund.

Rewording the EULA, as I detailed above, would correct the trust issues.

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

I am not aware of any law that requires the retention of IP and MAC  addresses.  I'm calling BS on that one until someone shows it to me in US  federal statutory law.

I consider MAC and IP  addresses personal information which should not be logged.  Both can be used to uniquely identify someone very easily.  Other personally identifiable information includes telephone number, address, and credit card number(s).

You're sending your IP address, which OS you have and which browser you use by simply browsing the internet (except you use TOR or sth.) and you don't know if it is logged or not  (google does f.e.). How is Origin gathering these information different?

[Animus Nocturnus]

The following is an open mail I wrote to Chris Priestly today. I hope to get an answer soon.

Dear Mr. Priestly,

this will be an open mail and I hope that you will answer it directly as well as in the corresponding thread.
Also please excuse my maybe a bit bumpy language, for I'm not a native speaker of the english language.

I've been a great fan of Bioware for most of my life, and I must say I'm a bit shocked. In this thread: http://social.biowar...index/8996121/1
there seems to be a very understandable uncertainity about some of the articles of the EULA, regarding the privat policy of EA and therefore Bioware.
It occurs to me, that there is very little to be found from you to ease these uncertainities/worries. Most of the questions there are answered by just some standartansweres, which could be written by some bots.
Mr. Priestly, I have to remind you that these are not only your customers, but also fans of Mass Effect or even Bioware. They rely on you and want their worries to be eased. They just want you to answer their questions with a little more than legal babbling. If their concerns about Origin are unnecessary - if there will be support for their favourit game(s) even if Origins will go down, if there will be no spying around, etc. - than you surely can tell them exactly this in a more personal way than with just some prefabricated articles.
Mr. Priestly, we are NOT your enemys. We are concerned about our privacy, about our chance to keep playing our acquired games, about our self-determination regarding OUR personal computer-systems, and last but not least our relationship with what I up untill now reffered to as "the best game-developer of the world".
Mr. Priestly, I beg you to reach out with your Hand in friendship and re-establish/retain the relationship you had/have with your fans.

With best regards,
Benjamin Starzinski

[jamesp81]

PyroByte wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

Ok , so if the eula were re-written then you wouldn't have a problem with origin.

Never said that.  I believe the EULA has been edited several times.  For me, personally, Origin is just useless baggage.

Same here.  Had Origin and its EULA been completely well-behaved, clean, and above board from the beginning, and the intention to require it had been honestly communicated from the beginning, I might have been willing to hold my nose and install it long enough to play ME3. 

The long lies of omision regarding Origin, its behavior in earlier tests, the EULA, and EA's continuing blatant deceit as to the intent and nature of Origin, have made it impossible for me to ever, in good conscience, install Origin on any computer I use or own. 

Ok but they can't go back time and change the past.It's just buying defective tires or bad food and the place where you got them at offers for you to come in for a free exchange.Now are you telling me because they screwed up once you wouldn't accept the offer before asking for a refund.

Rewording the EULA, as I detailed above, would correct the trust issues.

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

I am not aware of any law that requires the retention of IP and MAC  addresses.  I'm calling BS on that one until someone shows it to me in US  federal statutory law.

I consider MAC and IP  addresses personal information which should not be logged.  Both can be used to uniquely identify someone very easily.  Other personally identifiable information includes telephone number, address, and credit card number(s).

You're sending your IP address, which OS you have and which browser you use by simply browsing the internet (except you use TOR or sth.) and you don't know if it is logged or not  (google does f.e.). How is Origin gathering these information different?

There are countermeasures to prevent that sort of information from being collected which are easily available and completely legal.

[jamesp81]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

I am not aware of any law that requires the retention of IP and MAC  addresses.  I'm calling BS on that one until someone shows it to me in US  federal statutory law.

I consider MAC and IP  addresses personal information which should not be logged.  Both can be used to uniquely identify someone very easily.  Other personally identifiable information includes telephone number, address, and credit card number(s).

In Europe we do. I believe it's called the Data Retention Directive. I cannot answer for USA because I don't live there.

According to the directive, member states will have to store citizens' telecommunications data for six to 24 months stipulating a maximum time period. Under the directive the police and security agencies will be able to request access to details such as IP address and time of use of every email, phone call and text message sent or received. A request to access the information will be possible only with a court order. 

What Europe does is not my concern.

Modifié par jamesp81, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:53 .

[Dragoonlordz]

jamesp81 wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

You're sending your IP address, which OS you have and which browser you use by simply browsing the internet (except you use TOR or sth.) and you don't know if it is logged or not  (google does f.e.). How is Origin gathering these information different?

There are countermeasures to prevent that sort of information from being collected which are easily available and completely legal.

Sorry but if you believe your "measures" makes you are nothing more than a shadow on the internet then you are mistaken. Almost every site if not every single site you passed through including this one I belive logged your IP. You account information linked to your EA or BSN account is on file and for good reason so they can identify who you are relating to your account and for even your own security incase someone tries to steal your data/account.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:58 .

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

I comment little bit this, even when it's not really target for me.

You need to seperate personal identiffiable information and what person thinks is personal information. Because laws talks about personal identiffiable information as requirement. But what person feels as intrusion of privacy can be very different based different persons.

EA and Dmex talks about what law covers, because they have to as been part of company, to think laws. But they only think what LAW allows them to do, not what they customers define as they privacy. It's conflict of interest.

Person think this is private, but does law say's so too? Who's right? Both. Because what is personal is defined by every person as individual, but what is writen in law as rules, can be "played" by companies.  You can't write in laws something what is depending every persons own definations. You can only write what's common base for everyone.

Now company how ever, doesn't have to follow anything else than law says. But that doesn't cover every persons individual defination about they own privacy. Because no-one else can define it, than them self. So, it comes in end does company respect customers defination or just follow the laws. EA is using laws as get as much information laws allows them. But not all customers how ever accept this, because it's too much for some of them. So, these customers ask give me choice to say yes/no to something what's related they own personal privacy. Company how ever, doesn't care enough, because law does't force them.

That's what this is about. Respect of Customers.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:59 .