3659 réponses à ce sujet

[PyroByte]

jamesp81 wrote...

There are countermeasures to prevent that sort of information from being collected which are easily available and completely legal.

I'm not denying that, but a lot of people get worked up over the fact that origin collects your IP address and don't realize it's done almost everywhere. 

Yes you are right, you can hide behind proxys and prevent your IP being visible (even than you're not complety hidden or anonym) or but you can also block internet acces to origin so it can't sent you IP either.

Modifié par PyroByte, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:00 .

[Lumikki]

PyroByte wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

There are countermeasures to prevent that sort of information from being collected which are easily available and completely legal.

I'm not denying that, but a lot of people get worked up over the fact that origin collects your IP address and don't realize it's done almost everywhere. 

Yes you are right, you can hide behind proxys and prevent your IP being visible but you can also block internet acces to origin so it can't sent you IP either.

Yeah, IP address is collected everywhere, it's even required by laws to be collected.
I don't know why people are so upset about IP's.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:02 .

[jamesp81]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

You're sending your IP address, which OS you have and which browser you use by simply browsing the internet (except you use TOR or sth.) and you don't know if it is logged or not  (google does f.e.). How is Origin gathering these information different?

There are countermeasures to prevent that sort of information from being collected which are easily available and completely legal.

Sorry but if you believe your "measures" makes you are nothing more than a shadow on the internet then you are mistaken. Almost every site if not every single site you passed through including this one I belive logged your IP. You account information linked to your EA or BSN account is on file and for good reason so they can identify who you are relating to your account and for even your own security incase someone tries to steal your data/account.

Dragon, I do this sort of thing for a living.  It's part of my job.  I actually do know a little bit about what I'm talking about here:)

[jamesp81]

Lumikki wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

There are countermeasures to prevent that sort of information from being collected which are easily available and completely legal.

I'm not denying that, but a lot of people get worked up over the fact that origin collects your IP address and don't realize it's done almost everywhere. 

Yes you are right, you can hide behind proxys and prevent your IP being visible but you can also block internet acces to origin so it can't sent you IP either.

Yeah, IP address is collected everywhere, it's even required by laws to be collected.
I don't know why people are so upset about IP's.

Not where I live.

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

I comment little bit this, even when it's not really target for me.

You need to seperate personal identiffiable information and what person thinks is personal information. Because laws talks about personal identiffiable information as requirement. But what person feels as intrusion of privacy can be very different based different persons.

EA and Dmex talks about what law covers, because they have to as been part of company, to think laws. But they only think what LAW allows them to do, not what they customers define as they privacy. It's conflict of interest.

Person think this is private, but does law say's so too? Who's right? Both. Because what is personal is definded by every person as individual, but what is writen in law as rules, can be "played" by companies.  You can't write in laws something what is depending every persons own definations. You can only write what's common base for everyone.

Now company how ever, doesn't have to follow anything else than law says. But that doesn't cover every persons individual defination about they own privacy. Because no-one else can define it, than them self. So, it comes in end does company respect customers defination or just follow the laws. EA is using laws as get as much information laws allows them. But not all customers how ever accept this, because it's too much for some of them. So, these customers ask give me choice to say yes/no to something what's related they own personal privacy. Company how ever, doesn't care enough, because law does't force them.

That's what this is about. Respect of Customers.

Which is why I asked what he felt was in his opinion the personal information he mean't.

Everyone regardless of their opinion on privacy should follow the laws in their respective countries or leave that country if they cannot change the law. A company especially has to play by the rules and obey the law regardless of how customers may feel. As mentioned by law they have to keep records of IP and Mac addresses in Europe (I don't know what law is in USA). It's not about respect or lack of for customers when a company obeys the law.  With credit card information he mentioned he can ask them to remove that information from their system legally, his address registered on sites is because thats for his own security to prevent people stealing his accounts. His IP and Mac address (in Europe atleast) has to be on file he gets no choice in this by law, maybe someone more familiar with USA law can answer about USA stance but I was answering from European viewpoint. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:09 .

[Dragoonlordz]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

You're sending your IP address, which OS you have and which browser you use by simply browsing the internet (except you use TOR or sth.) and you don't know if it is logged or not  (google does f.e.). How is Origin gathering these information different?

There are countermeasures to prevent that sort of information from being collected which are easily available and completely legal.

Sorry but if you believe your "measures" makes you are nothing more than a shadow on the internet then you are mistaken. Almost every site if not every single site you passed through including this one I belive logged your IP. You account information linked to your EA or BSN account is on file and for good reason so they can identify who you are relating to your account and for even your own security incase someone tries to steal your data/account.

Dragon, I do this sort of thing for a living.  It's part of my job.  I actually do know a little bit about what I'm talking about here:)

So I call BS on your claim. 

In fact even if use fake IP address they can still track you down.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:14 .

[Wittand25]

Jaina Twoseas wrote...

I have a Question regarding Localization of Games / ME3 on Origin:

Is it possible to change language (voice and text) to english regardless in which country i buy? In Germany some games i order via Amazon come in german only localization which sucks hardcore, it would be nice to know that i can enjoy the entire game in english.

Steam for example always offers a change of language regardless where you purchase, however i read issues about EA related products (i think it was webstore) that appear only in the language where your IP Address resides, i hope Origin offers at least a change of language for games in a fashion steam does.

Because I am also a little worried about this I decided to run a test.
I uninstalled ME2 (I bought the regular German edition) and then started to download it again via Origin. Once I picked download I was asked which version I want. I had the choice between Cech, English (US) Spanish, Hungarian and Russian. Since I live in Austria I am a little confused by that choices.
I am relieved that an English version was present but wonder where the German one went of corse I have to wait until the download is finished to make sure that the correct English version was downloaded.

[Lumikki]

MAC address is not required by laws to be stored by Service providers (like this forum) in internet. Because MAC address is LAN (Local Area Network) only. ISP may need to storage it, as customers are in they LAN. To even see MAC address over internet, more than LAN, would require some software actually transfering it's in data.

IP-address is required, because it's used over internet as addresss.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:37 .

[jamesp81]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

PyroByte wrote...

You're sending your IP address, which OS you have and which browser you use by simply browsing the internet (except you use TOR or sth.) and you don't know if it is logged or not  (google does f.e.). How is Origin gathering these information different?

There are countermeasures to prevent that sort of information from being collected which are easily available and completely legal.

Sorry but if you believe your "measures" makes you are nothing more than a shadow on the internet then you are mistaken. Almost every site if not every single site you passed through including this one I belive logged your IP. You account information linked to your EA or BSN account is on file and for good reason so they can identify who you are relating to your account and for even your own security incase someone tries to steal your data/account.

Dragon, I do this sort of thing for a living.  It's part of my job.  I actually do know a little bit about what I'm talking about here:)

So I call BS on your claim. 

Do as you will.

[SpringMan]

Revealing your IP adress is not a big issue itself, no company can find out who you are and where you live just by your IP without major effort (If you have a dynamic IP this effort surely isn't worth the outcome). Things get interesting when all the collected information gets merged to a profile, i.e. Google (IP+interests), Amazon (IP, name and address) and Facebook (IP, Pictures and god knows what you post there).
Of course its not allowed, but in the end no EULA or goodwill will keep your information safe, there's always the possibility of a dataleak.
Me, i make sure i offer as little information as possible anywhere i go, to minimize the risk of being profiled. Till recently the amount of information necessary to play a game was very small, but for some reason or the other that has changed.
Call me a paranoid idiot, but i don't see why EA wants to pass on the money of those tinfoil-hat wearers like me if they wouldn't consider the data collected by the others as much more valuable.

Modifié par SpringMan, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:21 .

[Fatemaster]

Okay, very dumb question: How do I install Origin?

[Furtled]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
In Europe we do. I believe it's called the Data Retention Directive. I cannot answer for USA because I don't live there.

The Data Retention Directive covers the telecommunications industry, last I checked EA don't fall under that so please check or allow people with more through understanding of the EU legal system to clarify before quoting it as fact, things are muddled enough as is in this thread.

Thanks.

Modifié par Furtled, 23 janvier 2012 - 08:49 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Fatemaster wrote...

Okay, very dumb question: How do I install Origin?

First download via EA site or if game came with it then install from there.

Double click the icon should start the installer.

Not sure how more detailed need me to go though as your question is rather odd.

[Fatemaster]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Fatemaster wrote...

Okay, very dumb question: How do I install Origin?

First download via EA site or if game came with it then install from there.

Double click the icon should start the installer.

Not sure how more detailed need me to go though as your question is rather odd.

Ah, the information I needed. Thanks!

[MarauderESP]

PyroByte wrote...

snip...

You're sending your IP address, which OS you have and which browser you use by simply browsing the internet (except you use TOR or sth.) and you don't know if it is logged or not  (google does f.e.). How is Origin gathering these information different?

i dont trust €A isnt that enough?

[dmex]

 

Furtled wrote...
@DmexI appreciate what you're trying to do and you've done more to foster trust towards EA in your brief postings on here than EAs marketing machine have managed in the last six months. However being in full understanding of what Origin currently does and the intended meaning of the EULA (in combination with EA's privacy policy), I still do not want the Origin client on my PC merely to play a single player game I have bought and paid for in one of those odd physical shop things (yes, I am one of those old and stubborn types).
I'm not sure why this concept seems so alien to EA, but it's my PC, it should be my choice (a real choice, not an all or nothing choice which is no real choice at all). EA are removing my choice by making Origin (and any data collection by Origin) mandatory - so I am removing my money.
Also (and apologies if I've missed this, the thread's moving quickly) will this OpenOrigin be live by March 6th? If not any discussions of it (no matter how well intentioned) are unfortunately a little moot.

I think some might not understand why Origin is required for future EA titles at least from a security perspective, before Origin, developers (e.g. BioWare) implemented their own authentication methods, use their own servers to support the game (e.g. activation) and implement a bunch of same functionality.

If you consider over the last decade there have been over 1000 game titles, that's over 1000 different authentication methods/types, activation and  codebases that require security review and management etc...

Just releasing the games as they have been for the last decade is actually much worse than requiring Origin for these tasks and is unsustainable for a long list of reasons moving forward (maintainability, security, auditing, management etc..) and you also have the issue of End-of-life (EOL) management for these titles when these servers are shutdown and could prevent you from playing those games 20 years from now.

Origin centralizes authentication and activation while adding extra features (e.g. BioWare) would like such as Social integration, Cloud Sync, Game Save management etc... reduces the requirement of all publishers to re-implement these things into every title all without cost of multiple implementations.

Off the top of my head, this has major advantages (I've probably missed a few other really good points):

* Better Security & auditing. 
* More reliable activation.
* More features available.
* Centralized patch management.
* Allows every game to function after EOL.
*Allows activation after EOL.
* ???

wolfsite wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
I didn't see it answered in a top post, so here it is again
1. I've heard from various sources that origine uses at least 3 times as much memory as steam does.  my computer is not top of the line.  I already have to turn down my settings to play mass effect 2 with any sort of effectiveness.  is there any work being done to make Origin more efficient in terms of memory usage?  exactly how big of a memory drain Origin is?  I cannot afford to buy a new computer, ust to have ability to play mass effect 3.
2.  modding.  will Origin still allow for single player game modding, or will it no longer be possible.  i understand that you probably wouldn't want poeple gaining advantage in multiplayer (though to be honest, concidering that its co-op, not vesus, its not nearly as necessary IMO), but the primary advantage of playing on a PC vs consoles is ability to make minor changes to game files, from something as simple as unlocking more outfits and hairstyles, to .. making adjustements to paragon/renegade scores, giving yourself a max level, etc etc.  I would like to know if pc plaers will still retain said advantage, while playing solo.

I'll help with Question Number 1:
Based on Windows Task Manager:
Steam has peaked at about 89,884 K Mem Usage
Origin is at about 116,500 K Mem Usage
For a comparison My version of FireFox is at 182,236 K Mem Usage.
I will say Steam appears to jump around a lot in terms of memory usage as it has gone up and down as you use the program (It dipped to 60,234 K then jumped up to 96,875 K at one point) where Origin seems to stay consistent.

1) Steam memory management is broken and they 'cheat', Steam calls the EmptyWorkingSet API every so often to 'reset' it's memory usage, Use something like Process Explorer or Process Hacker (another Open Source project I work on) to gauge it's real memory usage.

On my system right now:
* Steam - 175MB
* Origin - 92MB

2) Origin won't stop you from modding, It's entirely the game publishers decision.

Modifié par dmex, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:29 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lumikki wrote...

MAC address is not required by laws to be stored by Service providers (like this forum) in internet. Because MAC address is LAN (Local Area Network) only. ISP may need to storage it, as customers are in they LAN. To even see MAC address over internet, more than LAN, would require some software actually transfering it's in data.

IP-address is required, because it's used over internet as addresss.

Some network hardware also has the ability to enter a "soft" MAC address through configuration... tracking MAC addresses isn't a foolproof way to ID connections.

[eyesofastorm]

dmex wrote...

* Better Security & auditing. 
* More reliable activation.
* More features available.
* Centeralised patch management.
* Allows every game to function after EOL.
*Allows activation after EOL.
* ???

These are all either ONLY benefits to the publisher or fixes to problems created by publisher decisions or benefits provided to the customer in the past through means that did not require intrusive, unwanted software be installed on the customer's personal computer.  Origin is *completely* one-sided.  

[Troodon80]

I apologise if I seem to be making a nuisance of myself, but I've been watching this thread carefully.

dmex wrote...
Game Save management

This has me slightly more worried. Are you saying that save games will now be saved server-side rather than stored on the local machine? (Or will this be well after ME3?)

[Mister Mida]

eyesofastorm wrote...

dmex wrote...

* Better Security & auditing. 
* More reliable activation.
* More features available.
* Centeralised patch management.
* Allows every game to function after EOL.
*Allows activation after EOL.
* ???

These are all either ONLY benefits to the publisher or fixes to problems created by publisher decisions or benefits provided to the customer in the past through means that did not require intrusive, unwanted software be installed on the customer's personal computer.  Origin is *completely* one-sided.  

Centralization is almost always only benefactory to the institute that controls the system. It may be very convenient to control things in one place, but you also make yourself a very easy target. If these systems shut down for some reason, everything directly linked to it is kaput.

Also having pre-implemented features like chatting makes developers only lazy, or they're limited on their own options since they can't change the pre-implements and are forced to use it.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:22 .

[Furtled]

dmex wrote...
I think some might not understand why Origin is required for future EA titles at least from a security perspective, before Origin, developers (e.g. BioWare) implemented their own authentication methods, use their own servers to support the game (e.g. activation) and implement a bunch of same functionality.

If you consider over the last decade there have been over 1000 game titles, that's over 1000 different authentication methods/types, activation and  codebases that require security review and management etc...

Just releasing the games as they have been for the last decade is actually much worse than requiring Origin for these tasks and is unsustainable for a long list of reasons moving forward (maintainability, security, auditing, management etc..) and you also have the issue of End-of-life (EOL) management for these titles when these servers are shutdown and could prevent you from playing those games 20 years from now.

Origin centralizes authentication and activation while adding extra features (e.g. BioWare) would like such as Social integration, Cloud Sync, Game Save management etc... reduces the requirement of all publishers to re-implement these things into every title all without cost of multiple implementations.

Off the top of my head, this has major advantages (I've probably missed a few other really good points):

* Better Security & auditing. 
* More reliable activation.
* More features available.
* Centeralised patch management.
* Allows every game to function after EOL.
*Allows activation after EOL.
* ???

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

As mentioned previously, I'm old (and stubborn, best not leave that one out!) I have games I bought back when Russia was called the USSR and people thought mullets were a good idea (in a totally non-ironic way) - some of these games even came on 5" floppies (yes, I'm THAT old). I still have those games, and every so often I'll get them out and play them; without the need to install any one publisher's proprietary rights/catalogue management system on my machine, hell some of them were even made by EA.

And okay, sometimes it's a bit fiddly and I need to dig out the manuals to find the CD keys or (occasionally) boot up a VM of an old windows version so they run, but that's my choice.

Coupling Origin with Mass Effect 3 takes away that choice entirely; if I have activation problems I'll handle them (as I did with Dragon Age & ME2 when the servers went into meltdown last year), if I want the extra features Origin offers (of which there, frankly, appear to be none right now, social and cloud integration really aren't up there on my must have list) then I might choose to install it.

Again it comes down to choice, my machine, my choice, not EA's.

A lot of PC gamers like to fiddle with their computers, we like to play with the settings and hardware, and most importantly we like to feel like we're in control of the machines we've built. Forcing us to chose between a game we've been anticipating for ages and allowing software we may not want (and likely don't need, especially if we've no interest in multiplayer) on our machines removes that.

I understand EA's thinking behind this and I'm frankly a little in awe of how willing they are to stick two fingers up at customer relations in order to get Origin embedded in the gaming community; it's insidiously clever really, by tying the system into sequels of some of their biggest franchises they know they have a lot of gamers by the balls. It's not a marketing strategy I'd ever endorse or allow in my own workplace, but there's no denying it'll be effective in the short term.

That said however, forcing a product on people also shows that EA's faith in their own creation is not quite what it should be. If the product is really as good as they say then let it speak for it's self; throw in some marketing and incentives sure, but ultimately give me a reason to want to use it beyond 'because we say so' and 'because it'll make our (EA's) life easier in future'.

What exactly does EA lose by giving us our choice back? Are we not worth enough as customers for EA to respect our decisions? Why can EA not look at their product (Origin) and come up with a better reason for us to use it, especially given that they have a massive hill to climb to challenge Steam's dominance? Is hacking off a large chunk of your paying customer base really the best way forward?

TL;DR summary: I'm not demanding Origin be scrubbed from existence or that anyone who wants to use it can't, all I'm asking for is a little respect and to be given back my sense of agency over my personal gaming experience.

Is that really too much to ask?

Modifié par Furtled, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:08 .

[Lumikki]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

What do you class as your personal identifiable information, I believe Dmex already said by law they have to keep a record of your IP and Mac address for a set period. That cannot be purged until the time period expires. So whats left that you consider personal identifiable information?

I comment little bit this, even when it's not really target for me.

You need to seperate personal identiffiable information and what person thinks is personal information. Because laws talks about personal identiffiable information as requirement. But what person feels as intrusion of privacy can be very different based different persons.

EA and Dmex talks about what law covers, because they have to as been part of company, to think laws. But they only think what LAW allows them to do, not what they customers define as they privacy. It's conflict of interest.

Person think this is private, but does law say's so too? Who's right? Both. Because what is personal is definded by every person as individual, but what is writen in law as rules, can be "played" by companies.  You can't write in laws something what is depending every persons own definations. You can only write what's common base for everyone.

Now company how ever, doesn't have to follow anything else than law says. But that doesn't cover every persons individual defination about they own privacy. Because no-one else can define it, than them self. So, it comes in end does company respect customers defination or just follow the laws. EA is using laws as get as much information laws allows them. But not all customers how ever accept this, because it's too much for some of them. So, these customers ask give me choice to say yes/no to something what's related they own personal privacy. Company how ever, doesn't care enough, because law does't force them.

That's what this is about. Respect of Customers.

Which is why I asked what he felt was in his opinion the personal information he mean't.

Everyone regardless of their opinion on privacy should follow the laws in their respective countries or leave that country if they cannot change the law. A company especially has to play by the rules and obey the law regardless of how customers may feel. As mentioned by law they have to keep records of IP and Mac addresses in Europe (I don't know what law is in USA). It's not about respect or lack of for customers when a company obeys the law.  With credit card information he mentioned he can ask them to remove that information from their system legally, his address registered on sites is because thats for his own security to prevent people stealing his accounts. His IP and Mac address (in Europe atleast) has to be on file he gets no choice in this by law, maybe someone more familiar with USA law can answer about USA stance but I was answering from European viewpoint. 

I undestand what you say, but I was trying to say something else.

You say company has to obey laws as what laws says. I agree, I don't even try to say anything else. I agree.

How ever, what I sayed, it's not just obey to law, but use laws as excuse for intrusion of peoples privacy as much as possible as what LAW allows. That's the issue. Company is using laws as excuse for they actions and don't listen what customers says about they own need of privacy.

Laws can't even cover this, because it's imposible to do so, because every person has different kind of personal privacy. Company deside that they look situation ONLY from they perspective needs, what is what law allows and demands. They do not look it from customers perspective as respects customers privacy as what customers are asking.

LAW is what sociaty ask everyone to respect. But contracts are also respect between two sides.
At the moment EA is respecting laws, but not the customers need of privacy in the contract.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2012 - 09:58 .

[Iamnotahater]

1. I like having the choice of which patches to install and when. Patches can fix things but they can also break things.

2. I like to install community developed patches from time to time. Orgin could break this.

3. Orgin should have no bearing on EOL.

4. If Orgin/EA goes kaput and my harddrive fails or I make an upgrade. I lose all my games. Also Orgin is not future proof in the sense that if EA goes under all my games are tied to this one program which could break in the future.

[Furtled]

@Lumikki

Dragoonlordz's interpretations of EU data retention laws are a little uninformed at best, I'd hold off taking anything they claim as fact in discussions with them. I'm sure it's not a deliberate attempt to deceive on their part, it's a complicated area and there's a lot of misinformation floating about in this thread.

Modifié par Furtled, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:04 .

[dmex]

 

Troodon80 wrote...

I apologise if I seem to be making a nuisance of myself, but I've been watching this thread carefully.

dmex wrote...
Game Save management

This has me slightly more worried. Are you saying that save games will now be saved server-side rather than stored on the local machine? (Or will this be well after ME3?)

 

No, They will still be saved locally. 

The availability of Cloud sync means the publisher will be able to sync game saves to the Cloud so you're able to go to a friends or work and continue from your last save the night/week/month before. It also means you don't need to worry about backing them up when you reinstall Windows.

Mister Mida wrote...
Centralization is almost always only benefactory to the institute that controls the system. It may be very convenient to control things in one place, but you also make yourself a very easy target. If these systems shut down for some reason, everything directly linked to it is kaput.

 

Just to throw this in some perspective, Microsoft and Google use one system and one web-page each to authenticate everyone on every site they operate. That's half the planet authenticating via two webpages for the most used services on the internet.

You're only secure as the weakest link, over 1000 authentication portals and methods means more links, more possible holes and makes them an easy target since something might be missed, one authentication portal means one very strong link thats easy to review and easy to secure.

If the authentication servers are down for maintenance or another issue, long as your credentials are saved, you'll still be able to logon and play games.

Mister Mida wrote... 
Also having pre-implemented features like chatting makes developers only lazy, or they're limited on their own options since they can't change the pre-implements and are forced to use it.

Publishers won't be limited, DICE for example implemented their own friends and chat on Battlelog instead of using Origin. 

Iamnotahater wrote...

1. I like having the choice of which patches to install and when. Patches can fix things but they can also break things.

2. I like to install community developed patches from time to time. Orgin could break this.

3. Orgin should have no bearing on EOL. 

4. If Orgin/EA goes kaput and my harddrive fails or I make an upgrade. I lose all my games. Also Orgin is not future proof in the sense that if EA goes under all my games are tied to this one program which could break in the future.

 

1)  You can disable auto-updating in Origin settings.

2) Publishers will break community patches, not Origin 

3) Right now when titles are retired by EA, the servers are shutdown, same games just don't work no more. Origin solves that problem.

4) If Microsoft/Valve goes kaput, it's the same situation, EA is very large and won't be an Enron.

Modifié par dmex, 23 janvier 2012 - 10:13 .