3659 réponses à ce sujet

[Rudy Lis]

Troodon80 wrote...

The alternative sees EA/BioWare scorning their fans (some of them loyal since the beginning, some of them huge Mass Effect fans (they do know this and that is why they are using it to their advantage, just like BF3)) and customers even through all the criticism, the people who will be giving them their hard earned money in return for a video game.

As we been gibed in some "loyalty" thread, we not loyal enough. some - because asking something from, some - because suggesting something and all guilty because we refuse to accept them "as is".

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ok now it's ON...

Wow! You know kung-fu?

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Yes I do put people into catagories, I admit that for example people who do not like FF vs people who do I catagorise them as either fans or not fans. Also you make my avatar cry, I thought we were friends.

Oh... Despicable me... Local smilies selection does not provide evil enough smile.

My apologies.

P.S. What's the FF?

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:02 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Troodon80 wrote...

Because others doing something wrong isn't an excuse for doing something wrong.

I agree. Saying someone else did it first is not an excuse to do it.

It is only my opinion, and can be ignored by any and all, but I would imagine this to work:

Say they make Origin optional, they don't strong arm people into using it just to play one video game and possibly never again due to said strong-arming.

They make the installation of the game as they have on previous EA Games, just the standard Next->Next->Enter CD Key->Next->Install. At the end of the installation is a checkbox to install Origin (as an optional extra, not a requirement). If you do allow the optional installation of Origin, you get a free game (something that would only cost about $5 anyway, so it's not really going to hurt profits). You give people the choice of installing it, plus they get a nice gift for doing so. Not only do they install the software, but EA has endeared the customer with a certain amount of goodwill. In this case they are more likely to buy from EA again, and continue supporting Origin and EA. On the other hand, those who buy the retail (shop bought version), and simply can't install Origin and use it for patches and DLC due to some issue with internet feel that they have been given a fair and rightful choice. Again, this maintains a certain amount of goodwill between the customer and the company, and they are likely to make more purchase in the future.

The alternative sees EA/BioWare scorning their fans (some of them loyal since the beginning, some of them huge Mass Effect fans (they do know this and that is why they are using it to their advantage, just like BF3)) and customers even through all the criticism, the people who will be giving them their hard earned money in return for a video game.

Imagine that, enticement instead of coercion. 

Nah, EA would never go for that.

[Poison_Berrie]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ok last part probably did not happen. But between them they essentially locked EA out from selling it on their platform and EA have the right to do the same in return for their own products they paid to make and distribute. 

I am 99% sure Bethesda did not come to Valve and ask if could sell their game with Valves client out of the blue. Seems far more logical that Valve push for client combined with product than other way around. I don't have the same fanboyism as others towards Steam (I view both Origin and Steam the same way) so I personally have my suspicions Valve may have actually said something like if you want us to sell your title on Steam you have to bundle our client with retail.

I sincerely doubt that. 
It all has to do with DRM. They decided to go with Steamworks as DRM and that's that. 

Both sides having their own DRM check and updates through their platforms, pre-cludes them from the other.
I kind of hope this eventually means both platforms need to open up more (only forced to run client for DRM check and initial download), but I fear it's only going to get worse with more mutaul exclusive platforms.

[Dragoonlordz]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ok now it's ON...

Wow! You know kung-fu?

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Yes I do put people into catagories, I admit that for example people who do not like FF vs people who do I catagorise them as either fans or not fans. Also you make my avatar cry, I thought we were friends.

Oh... Despicable me... Local smilies selection does not provide evil enough smile.

My apologies.

P.S. What's the FF?

Final Fantasy. 

The final bit always amuses me after 15+ finals I wonder when the final final fantasy will come out. 

P.s. I am in the FF fan catagory.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:04 .

[wolfsite]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

To be honest if Steam wasn't forcing people to install their client with titles/games (Skyrim being just latest example), EA may not have gone down this route however Steam very much did it first and if they don't stop doing it I see no reason why EA should.

Because others doing something wrong isn't an excuse for doing something wrong.

Please stop labelling things.

<The Following is a look at client and Digital Distribution>

Just because this is how it's done does not make it wrong.

The thing is the majority have accepted that.  Steam has over 4 million users right now not including people with multiple accounts.  That shows people use this type of service and accepted games being locked to that service (Half Life 2 to Steam and so on).

You may not like this and you have the right to feel that way and express you do not like, however that does not entitle you to label it as wrong (Go say that statement on the Steam forums to see what peoples opinions are, some may agree they do not like the setup but the vast majority will say the digital client is the way to go).

If you look on the horizon more and more digital clients and systems are coming with some publishers discontinuing hard copy games all together.  We have other clients like Desura, GFWL which is getting a total overhaul come Windows 8.  Rumours of Ubi-soft wishing to venture into digital distribution, GameStop pulling all retail outlets from the UK and even Ireland.


The majority have accepted this, the only way to turn that around is to have the people who don't like it to outnumber the people that like and/or accept it.

It comes down to supply and demand and right now the demand is in favour of this form of distribution and DRM (hell compared things like Securom and Starforce it is a lot less hassle)

[DownyTif]

Won't quote 100 posts, but I don't think the debate is between Steam and Origin, but it keeps this thread alive. As a customer, I just don't want to be forced to use a third party software with a game I buy off the shelves.

I just don't agree at all that EA is forcing their spyware on me if I want to play ME3. Of course my answer to this is not buying the game (and believe me, I'll stand my ground) not on 360 (where I own ME1+ME2 and 2 playthroughts), not on PC (where I own ME1+ME2 (twice) and 1 playthrought).

[Siegdrifa]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
*snap*

My initial comment still stands, the reform proposal is to change the ones that currently do not have same rules or laws. That is the proposal not whether you currently have same laws. It's to bring others into line the ones that do not. I never said was a 'new' problem so seem's to me your tryng to push this discussion in a complete different direction to what was initially said and responded to. It will only really have major impact on those without same rules as the ones being proposed, if yours are more inline with the proposal then good for you but your not a target of the reform then and since it's to really only major impact will be ones with different rules it's them that will take 2 years after to implement (and if) gets passed.

Euro zone is not waiting for every country to be ready before they decide, they can decide law even if X country is not inline or ready to get inline soon.
Usualy, if a problem occure, the citizen of X country could loss in court because the laws of his country says he is wrong while the euro laws says he is right, after that defeat, he will have to take an european court where the decision will overide his country's jugement if the euro zone have an official stance on this matter.

This document is more about giving a unifed voice of euro zone over this matter than putting this law to apply for every body at the same time, applyng it for each country will come latter, it doesn't matter.

You could be right, but i don't belive it will take 2 years before it happen, especialy because germany is a on the edge on this subject and they are very influencing inside the euro zone.

[Rudy Lis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Final Fantasy. 

The final bit always amuses me after 15+ finals I wonder when the final final fantasy will come out. 

P.s. I am in the FF fan catagory.

Thanx!

Yeah, Final fantasy. There are so many of them, so final one should be named terminal fantasy.

I'm not fan, but played one.. Well, "seeing" will be more correct - I mostly watch and my buddy done most playing. And talking. It was FFVII, if memory served (around 97-98, I suppose you can correct me if I'm wrong).

[Mister Mida]

wolfsite wrote...

<The Following is a look at client and Digital Distribution>

Just because this is how it's done does not make it wrong.

The thing is the majority have accepted that.  Steam has over 4 million users right now not including people with multiple accounts.  That shows people use this type of service and accepted games being locked to that service (Half Life 2 to Steam and so on).

You may not like this and you have the right to feel that way and express you do not like, however that does not entitle you to label it as wrong (Go say that statement on the Steam forums to see what peoples opinions are, some may agree they do not like the setup but the vast majority will say the digital client is the way to go).

If you look on the horizon more and more digital clients and systems are coming with some publishers discontinuing hard copy games all together.  We have other clients like Desura, GFWL which is getting a total overhaul come Windows 8.  Rumours of Ubi-soft wishing to venture into digital distribution, GameStop pulling all retail outlets from the UK and even Ireland.


The majority have accepted this, the only way to turn that around is to have the people who don't like it to outnumber the people that like and/or accept it.

It comes down to supply and demand and right now the demand is in favour of this form of distribution and DRM (hell compared things like Securom and Starforce it is a lot less hassle)

You know, for some reason people are having a hard time seperating digital distribution with a digital distribution client. You don't need to install some software to make DD work. GoG proved that.

[Siegdrifa]

Rudy Lis wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Final Fantasy. 

The final bit always amuses me after 15+ finals I wonder when the final final fantasy will come out. 

P.s. I am in the FF fan catagory.

Thanx!

Yeah, Final fantasy. There are so many of them, so final one should be named terminal fantasy.

I'm not fan, but played one.. Well, "seeing" will be more correct - I mostly watch and my buddy done most playing. And talking. It was FFVII, if memory served (around 97-98, I suppose you can correct me if I'm wrong).

The title is born from the last project able to save Square Soft, things were hard financialy and IRL for Sakagushi at that time, it was their final fantasy before a sad end.
The game sucess saved the studio, the title stuck for years and largely contributed the their fame worldwide.

[Killjoy Cutter]

wolfsite wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

To be honest if Steam wasn't forcing people to install their client with titles/games (Skyrim being just latest example), EA may not have gone down this route however Steam very much did it first and if they don't stop doing it I see no reason why EA should.

Because others doing something wrong isn't an excuse for doing something wrong.

Please stop labelling things.

<The Following is a look at client and Digital Distribution>

Just because this is how it's done does not make it wrong.

The thing is the majority have accepted that.  Steam has over 4 million users right now not including people with multiple accounts.  That shows people use this type of service and accepted games being locked to that service (Half Life 2 to Steam and so on).

You may not like this and you have the right to feel that way and express you do not like, however that does not entitle you to label it as wrong (Go say that statement on the Steam forums to see what peoples opinions are, some may agree they do not like the setup but the vast majority will say the digital client is the way to go).

If you look on the horizon more and more digital clients and systems are coming with some publishers discontinuing hard copy games all together.  We have other clients like Desura, GFWL which is getting a total overhaul come Windows 8.  Rumours of Ubi-soft wishing to venture into digital distribution, GameStop pulling all retail outlets from the UK and even Ireland.


The majority have accepted this, the only way to turn that around is to have the people who don't like it to outnumber the people that like and/or accept it.

It comes down to supply and demand and right now the demand is in favour of this form of distribution and DRM (hell compared things like Securom and Starforce it is a lot less hassle)

Forcing installation and usage of the DD client for all versions of the game is wrong. 

I'm not going to wishy-washy my statements to satisify moral relativism, or whatever you're on about.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:43 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I have no objection to digital distribution. I'm a big fan of digital distribution. I object to a publisher maintaining control over how I use the software I purchased. Steam does this with patches, and apparently Origin does the same thing.

[Siegdrifa]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I have no objection to digital distribution. I'm a big fan of digital distribution. I object to a publisher maintaining control over how I use the software I purchased. Steam does this with patches, and apparently Origin does the same thing.

You talk about steam being patched or automatic patches for games ?
Because you can desable the auto patche and still play your non updated game, i don't know though if steam all to launch them not updated.

[Rudy Lis]

Siegdrifa wrote...

The title is born from the last project able to save Square Soft, things were hard financialy and IRL for Sakagushi at that time, it was their final fantasy before a sad end.
The game sucess saved the studio, the title stuck for years and largely contributed the their fame worldwide.

Very interesting. Many thanks for clarification. (where is dandy smilie, dammit?)

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I have no objection to digital distribution. I'm a big fan of digital distribution. I object to a publisher maintaining control over how I use the software I purchased. Steam does this with patches, and apparently Origin does the same thing.

My one and only gripe against DD system is region locks. I understand when they block cheaper regional versions, but why they not allow us to purchase more expensive "RoW" versions - is absolutely beyond my understanding.

Siegdrifa wrote...

You talk about steam being patched or automatic patches for games ?
Because you can desable the auto patche and still play your non updated game, i don't know though if steam all to launch them not updated.

If memory serves, until Steam learns that certain game is updated, but your copy is not - it won't block it for you.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:57 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Because you can desable the auto patche and still play your non updated game, i don't know though if steam all to launch them not updated.

Steam will not let you activate a game without first patching it up the current version.  Steam will not let you uninstall any patch ever.  Steam will not let you install any patches unless you want to install all available patches.

This means that every player is required to install Day 0 patches.  This means that only players who have and activate the game before any given patch is released have any control over whether that patch is installed.  This means that any decision to install any patch is irreversible.

dmex says Origins does the same.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Steam will not let you activate a game without first patching it up the current version.  Steam will not let you uninstall any patch ever.  Steam will not let you install any patches unless you want to install all available patches.

This means that every player is required to install Day 0 patches.  This means that only players who have and activate the game before any given patch is released have any control over whether that patch is installed.  This means that any decision to install any patch is irreversible.

dmex says Origins does the same.

And this is why clients like Steam and Origin are "fail", as the kids say.

My computer, my software installation, I decide which patches / updates are applied. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 25 janvier 2012 - 09:34 .

[DashRunner92]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Because you can desable the auto patche and still play your non updated game, i don't know though if steam all to launch them not updated.

Steam will not let you activate a game without first patching it up the current version.  Steam will not let you uninstall any patch ever.  Steam will not let you install any patches unless you want to install all available patches.

This means that every player is required to install Day 0 patches.  This means that only players who have and activate the game before any given patch is released have any control over whether that patch is installed.  This means that any decision to install any patch is irreversible.

dmex says Origins does the same.

Expect that from any game client, not just Steam or Origin. Plus the majority of gamers don't bother to even read up on what each patch contains or just want the latest update. 

Modifié par DashRunner92, 25 janvier 2012 - 09:57 .

[AlanC9]

wolfsite wrote...
If you look on the horizon more and more digital clients and systems are coming with some publishers discontinuing hard copy games all together.  We have other clients like Desura, GFWL which is getting a total overhaul come Windows 8.  Rumours of Ubi-soft wishing to venture into digital distribution, GameStop pulling all retail outlets from the UK and even Ireland.

Hell, in the really long term I'll bet client-side games go away altogether. Eventually the whole game will just sit on a server somewhere and you'll play it over broadband.

[CenturyCrow]

AlanC9 wrote...

wolfsite wrote...
If you look on the horizon more and more digital clients and systems are coming with some publishers discontinuing hard copy games all together.  We have other clients like Desura, GFWL which is getting a total overhaul come Windows 8.  Rumours of Ubi-soft wishing to venture into digital distribution, GameStop pulling all retail outlets from the UK and even Ireland.

Hell, in the really long term I'll bet client-side games go away altogether. Eventually the whole game will just sit on a server somewhere and you'll play it over broadband.

I'm not objecting to the change(s) as a business model where it's practical and desirable for everyone; however, many of the changes aren't practical and desirable by everyone. Built into these so called business models are the various control aspects that limit the user's rights–i.e. selling a game or buying a second hand game.

The first EULAs were about copyright and reverse engineering. In addition to lengthy EULAs, we have the TOS further limiting the user and the Privacy policies. With Origin and DD programs we get yet another EULA, TOS and Privacy Policy added to the pile.

To me it's the game corporations and their armies of lawyers and legal speak that are strangling the industry. Once I finish ME 3, I wipe the drive and reinstall Windows. If the game is not free of DRM (like Witcher 2) or has a EULA, TOS or other disagreeable element, I'm not interested.

Once I gave up television to get rid of advertising crap, I had a lot more time for other things. Any books I buy are mine to resell, trade, lend or give away. The library is free. And that's just one option instead of video games.

Modifié par CenturyCrow, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:02 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

DashRunner92 wrote...

Expect that from any game client, not just Steam or Origin. Plus the majority of gamers don't bother to even read up on what each patch contains or just want the latest update.

No professional application would ever do this.  No one would force companies to install patches to their mission-critical software without testing them first.

It's completely unacceptable.

[Killjoy Cutter]

AlanC9 wrote...

wolfsite wrote...
If you look on the horizon more and more digital clients and systems are coming with some publishers discontinuing hard copy games all together.  We have other clients like Desura, GFWL which is getting a total overhaul come Windows 8.  Rumours of Ubi-soft wishing to venture into digital distribution, GameStop pulling all retail outlets from the UK and even Ireland.

Hell, in the really long term I'll bet client-side games go away altogether. Eventually the whole game will just sit on a server somewhere and you'll play it over broadband.

And that's when I stop gaming.

If all software goes that way and we're back to dumb terminals, then I'm back to pen, paper, and the USPS.

[MingWolf]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I have no objection to digital distribution. I'm a big fan of digital distribution. I object to a publisher maintaining control over how I use the software I purchased. Steam does this with patches, and apparently Origin does the same thing.

Well said.

Speaking of digital distribution (or control of).  My internet went down half an hour this morning.  I tried to access a game from Steam (Skyrim), and the offline mode didn't work.  It simply quit the program no matter how much I tried booting it up.  Couldn't help but glower slightly considering that we are required to do something similar with ME3 and origin.  Patches or no, the control is irritating.  

I don't know how some people can actually support this.  It's like people supporting the recycling of maps in DA2.  What benefit does it actually give to the customer in respect to ME3?  What benefit is there?  It does more harm than good.  One has to consider the option of having it, and not having it.  It's hard to visualize any sensible customer supporting this.  I don't care what devices are in place to make the transition of using these extra clients easier.  It's better to not have them. 

Modifié par MingWolf, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:50 .

[Vaeliorin]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

wolfsite wrote...
If you look on the horizon more and more digital clients and systems are coming with some publishers discontinuing hard copy games all together.  We have other clients like Desura, GFWL which is getting a total overhaul come Windows 8.  Rumours of Ubi-soft wishing to venture into digital distribution, GameStop pulling all retail outlets from the UK and even Ireland.

Hell, in the really long term I'll bet client-side games go away altogether. Eventually the whole game will just sit on a server somewhere and you'll play it over broadband.

And that's when I stop gaming.

If all software goes that way and we're back to dumb terminals, then I'm back to pen, paper, and the USPS.

If they ever do away with physical copies of games, I'm likely done buying games.  I've picked up some things on Steam for ridiculously low sale prices, but any game that I'm buying at release, I want a hard copy.

[MingWolf]

CenturyCrow wrote...

I'm not objecting to the change(s) as a business model where it's practical and desirable for everyone; however, many of the changes aren't practical and desirable by everyone. Built into these so called business models are the various control aspects that limit the user's rights–i.e. selling a game or buying a second hand game.

The first EULAs were about copyright and reverse engineering. In addition to lengthy EULAs, we have the TOS further limiting the user and the Privacy policies. With Origin and DD programs we get yet another EULA, TOS and Privacy Policy added to the pile.

To me it's the game corporations and their armies of lawyers and legal speak that are strangling the industry. Once I finish ME 3, I wipe the drive and reinstall Windows. If the game is not free of DRM (like Witcher 2) or has a EULA, TOS or other disagreeable element, I'm not interested.

Once I gave up television to get rid of advertising crap, I had a lot more time for other things. Any books I buy are mine to resell, trade, lend or give away. The library is free. And that's just one option instead of video games.

That is the crux of the problem.  Entertainment nowadays seem so involved with the almighty buck ($$$) and less so about respect, innovation, and art.  Really, it's kind of annoying that one has to sift through so many legal documents and have to deal with corporate controls in order to enjoy anything these days.  

I'm fed up with having to deal with advertising around every corner too.  Heck, it's pretty annoying being forced to wait and WATCH that EA logo go by everytime I play an EA published game.  You can't even press ESC to get around that these days, and we all know why (reminder: $$$).  It's made watching TV painful.  It's made going to the big screens painful.  It's also making gaming painful.  Kind of off topic, but it still has to do with the whole grand scheme of things. 

Being viced, however discreetly, when we want to play a game now is the next step.  Why do we have it?  It does everything to benefit the corporations and little to benefit the customers (if any benefit).  Greed.

[Killjoy Cutter]

They're not creating anymore, MingWolf, just extruding a product based on market research and such.