3659 réponses à ce sujet

[Iamnotahater]

dmex wrote... 



Kudo's to Dragoonlordz for explaining the various reasons behind requiring the
game verify your entitlements.



If you didn't pay for the game, you have no rights to the game, no rights to play
the game, product support, our servers, our content or anything provided by the
company... your Origin account acts as the electronic verification of ownership
to grant these rights.

The first part of the quote is correct. However, making legit users jump
through hoops to prove ownership and install bloatware turns people off and
makes them look for alternatives.



Esp in the case of games like BF where Orgin in some cases broke the game. It's
one thing to implement DRM and a content delivery system. It's another when
it's BETA and causes games to crash and not function. End-users (consumers)
didn't shell out in 70 bucks for games that don't work because of draconian
DRM.

dmex wrote...

You also can't selectively decide when or how you're going to prove you own the
game without handing the pirates the game itself and free access to our product
support, our servers, our content...etc on a silver platter.

I don't pretend to be expert on pirating or how they remove DRM. But I thought
in most cases they try and prevent access to the internet from their modified
execs not encourage it.

dmex wrote...

Imagine a scenario where there were 50,000 pirates to every one customer, all
accessing support, our servers, our content...etc without buying the game to
pay for these services... Realtime Worlds (makers of APB Reloaded) is a good
example of what happens, servers get overloaded causing players to lag and
dropout, product support gets delayed... ruining the gaming experience for
paying customers and costing the company millions because people didn't want to
pay $20 for a great game they loved.

I thought APB reloaded was f2p. Plenty of mmo exist with without a content
delivery system like steam or orgin.



Alot of MMO use basic login authentication.

dmex wrote...

Activation is a fact of life for almost all software these
days, you can thank every last

pirate for making this happen and making it worse. Dragoonlordz explained very
well it's much better having something simple than mailing a receipt every time
you want to download something or ask support about a problem and this is what
Origin does, makes it simple while also not 'phoning home' or
installing DRM. 

 Are you suggesting that Orgin is the only method of DRM that EA will employ in
the future? 

[Forbidden]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Forbidden wrote...

You encrypt chunks of the game with an encryption scheme that isn't mickey mouse, then e-mail a keyfile with the electronic reciept.  The electronic reciept becomes an electronic signature that ties back to the name and credit card of the person who bought it in the vendor's database.  The client's computer never connects to the internet, never contacts back to the publisher.  However, any copy of the game that appears on pirate sites can be tracked back to the purchser.  You then sue them into oblivion.  Do this a few times and people will be more careful with their copies.  Lawful paying customers are not hindered by nonsense. 

Interesting scheme. It does rather limit the ways you can let people pay for the game, though. No cash, no prepaid cards, nothing that can't be traced back to an individual user.

And it still amounts to the customer repeatedly having to prove that they paid for a product just to use that product.

How so?  It's no different than buying a car.  You buy the car and the dealer gives you a key.  You don't need to prove anything to anyone.  The key doesn't call home.  The key cannot be revoked.  You load the keyfile into the game once and you're done.

[eyesofastorm]

Everybody is looking at this like it is purely a DRM solution for EA. EA wants what Valve has with Steam. They want 100% of the profits on their own games and a % of the profits of other people's games. But Steam pwns the market right now and EA needs some penetration. They are leveraging people's attachment to the Mass Effect story to penetrate forcefully.

edit:  NO LUBE FOR YOU!

Modifié par eyesofastorm, 27 janvier 2012 - 11:58 .

[Dragoonlordz]

OperativeX wrote...

I've said it before and i'll say it again - Croteam put a DRM in Serious Sam 3 BFE which only activates when the game code is cracked. It causes a giant unkillable scorpion to appear in the game which murders your character over and over until the game is ruined for u because u can't progress. This was true skill from the devs. The people who paid for the game did not suffer the scorpion.

There are no install limits for Serious Sam 3. Only pirates got a kick in the balls. Legit paying customers got a fun game. The way it should be.

Origin/DRM is a complete and utter waste of time. It needs radical change

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news but they cracked that code ages ago and removed the scorpion.

Google said so.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:02 .

[Iamnotahater]

There's also very little evidence that steam is preventing piracy.

It's just a cop out to make legit users to jump through hoops and install their BETA content delivery system.

I have xbox and pc capable of playing ME3. I will likely either rent the game or buy it used because of this. I'll still play the game legally but Bioware isn't getting a cent from me.

Modifié par Iamnotahater, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:02 .

[Furtled]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
A customer or section of customers does not dictate the business decisions, they are not the ones footing the bill for the development or publishing/distribution.

Except customer data (anonymous or not) is a valuble commodity, not just in terms of gameplay feedback but in negotiating advertising deals, investments etc. It was recently estimated the information provided to Google by a single user is worth up to $5k a year to the company, I can't find recent figures for Facebook but last I checked their revenue per user was a damn sight higher than that.

Agreed EA are partly pushing Origin to cut down on physical distrubution costs (and capture some of Steam's market), but make no mistake, the data they're harvesting (and I use that word very deliberately as they're not giving Origin client users any choice in the matter) is incredibly valuble, and that's in addition to money customers lay out for the actual game.

Also there's little risk involved in developing a sequel to an incredibly popular series of games, especially if you consider that something like Duke Nukem Forever looks like it'll turn a profit. You've got every right to put your side across here, but again, please stop stating things as fact when they're not.

Modifié par Furtled, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:19 .

[Gatt9]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If the customers were actually putting more effort into combatting it then the publishers wouldn't have to do so much.

However most customers simply don't care and instead of trying to stop the one's stealing copies they spend all their time fighting the developers and publishers who are trying. In fact the worst people the ones on CDPR forums one of them which specifically said he wished the company would bend over and take the hit of being stolen from, do nothing in response; and that is a disgusting way to think imho.

How exactly are customers going to combat piracy?

Keep in mind,  we're talking about a group that collectively,  is very lucky they can find the power button on their computer or console.  Heck,  the majority of people couldn't even figure out how to set the clock on their VCR or DVD Player. 

...And you think you can put these people up against a group that can reverse engineer a piece of software,  identify and remove activation code (Or even Steam links),  recompile,  and securely distribute it?

I'm not trying to be rude here Dragonlordz,  but your vision of the world is very,  very,  different from what the world actually is.

That said,  I agree with your underlying theory,  that Pirates are a horrible self-entitled bunch that are doing extensive damage to key segments of our economy.

But the solution is not the one you suggest,  people are not going to self police.  TBH,  I would generally agree with DMX's implied sentiments that cloud computing is what will solve the problem.  Sadly,  with governments unable to address the issue,  the only solution is cloud computing (Actually,  not strictly cloud computing,  the server won't process gameplay,  just transfer levels as required).

As far as activation goes,  TBH,  this isn't so different from the solutions used during the early computing era.  Code wheels or pausing the game and requiring you to reference a user's manual.  It was in use until the mid-90's.  You got one code wheel with your game,  if you lost it,  your problem.  At the time,  there was no internet to give you the answers.  More than a few games were even devious about it,  like Sid Meirs Pirates,  if you failed the user manual check it would keep playing,  but you were destined to lose all of your fights. 

[Dragoonlordz]

Iamnotahater wrote...

There's also very little evidence that steam is preventing piracy.

It's just a cop out to make legit users to jump through hoops and install their BETA content delivery system.

I have xbox and pc capable of playing ME3. I will likely either rent the game or buy it used because of this. I'll still play the game legally but Bioware isn't getting a cent from me.

Interesting news might wish to know.

Rumour has it the next Xbox will not play used games according to Microsoft themselves.

[Furtled]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
As someone who has played over a hundred or more F2P MMO's and dozens of paid for ones. F2P is laggy to the extreme in most cases. After the initial interest upon release the numbers drop insanely fast and most people end up either using it as nothing more than a chat program with flashy avatars or only log in to vlaim the freebies then 20-30 minutes later log back out. They almost all run on micro transactions and they just about keep their heads above water.

Except for something like DC Online that saw a 700% uptake in revenue after going F2P or Team Fortress 2 which is raking in a fortune via micro-transactions and that's without digging into the social games/mobile market.

Again I'm not saying don't put your opinions out there, but for the love of all things holy do some research before stating all this as 'fact' please. I don't want to keep correcting you (seriously, I really don't) but your repeated misinformation is as bad as people who make up things about Origin's scanning abilities (or non-existant privacy laws) for confusing this thread.

And now I really am bowing out before I turn into an XKCD strip. 

Modifié par Furtled, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:22 .

[dmex]

Iamnotahater wrote...
I thought APB reloaded was f2p. Plenty of mmo exist with without a content
delivery system like steam or orgin.

 

It was made F2P by the new owners K2 last year, Realtime Worlds (the creators) are now bankrupt and non-existent.

Iamnotahater wrote... 
Are you suggesting that Orgin is the only method of DRM that EA will employ in the future? 

For all EA titles yes, no more SecureROM, for third-party publishers it's their choice as to what they'll use.

[MingWolf]

Iamnotahater wrote...

There's also very little evidence that steam is preventing piracy.

It's just a cop out to make legit users to jump through hoops and install their BETA content delivery system.

I have xbox and pc capable of playing ME3. I will likely either rent the game or buy it used because of this. I'll still play the game legally but Bioware isn't getting a cent from me.

There is evidence that despite the hurdles, Steam has failed to prevent piracy.  Another steam clone won't change that.

But Steam as a platform is successful in the service they provide.  This makes me suspect that part of the reason why EA is pushing Origin so strongly is because they want to penetrate that market and grab a piece of the pie, so-to-speak.  I could be wrong, but I can see that being a major perk and motive for them.  That, and the DRM aspect.  I don't even want to get into the EULA issues and all that.  

Modifié par MingWolf, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:14 .

[Forbidden]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Guessing you haven't played many F2P MMO's then. As someone who has played over a hundred or more F2P MMO's and dozens of paid for ones. F2P is laggy to the extreme in most cases. After the initial interest upon release the numbers drop insanely fast and most people end up either using it as nothing more than a chat program with flashy avatars or only log in to vlaim the freebies then 20-30 minutes later log back out. They almost all run on micro transactions and they just about keep their heads above water.

I don't, but it was my understanding that they're making quite a bit of money with those "micro" transactions.  Even with a large number of people who opt not to pay, they still make money.  I don't know if it's a good system, I'm not really interested in it, but I've been told many of them are doing quite well financially.

All of this however is redundant because the example given by Dmex is factually true in that there was a huge backlash by paying customers over the situation he mentioned which in past a title had more people using the servers who stole the game than bought. Do not also forget MMO's have 'always on' style of DRM (including F2P ones) if want to play them. If they added such thing to ME3 then you would moan about it far more. Illegal servers do not impact paying customers (they have some effect on developer though regarding loss of customers) but that is not the example Dmex gave.

I'm not really familiar with the APB case.  From what I understand, APB was an MMO.  (I remember reading some headlines a while back how the game sucked and it folded)  How do you pirate an MMO? 

MMOs do not have DRM.  You can take a copy of world of warcraft and give it two whomever you want.  But in another sense, you do end up with many of the same restrictions.  An MMO can ban you and prevent you from planning the game that you purchased, just like Origin.   Paid MMOs usually involve subscriptions and a consistent stream of new content.  It's also acknowledged that the games couldn't work technically without this restriction.  Single player games can function without an internet connection, unless an artificial restriction is placed over it.  Customers are rightly upset at this artificial restriction.

[Dragoonlordz]

Gatt9 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If the customers were actually putting more effort into combatting it then the publishers wouldn't have to do so much.

However most customers simply don't care and instead of trying to stop the one's stealing copies they spend all their time fighting the developers and publishers who are trying. In fact the worst people the ones on CDPR forums one of them which specifically said he wished the company would bend over and take the hit of being stolen from, do nothing in response; and that is a disgusting way to think imho.

How exactly are customers going to combat piracy?

When know of someone who does steal copies convince them to stop (one way or another).

Keep in mind,  we're talking about a group that collectively,  is very lucky they can find the power button on their computer or console.  Heck,  the majority of people couldn't even figure out how to set the clock on their VCR or DVD Player. 

...And you think you can put these people up against a group that can reverse engineer a piece of software,  identify and remove activation code (Or even Steam links),  recompile,  and securely distribute it?

I'm not trying to be rude here Dragonlordz,  but your vision of the world is very,  very,  different from what the world actually is.

That said,  I agree with your underlying theory,  that Pirates are a horrible self-entitled bunch that are doing extensive damage to key segments of our economy.

That's fair enough.

But the solution is not the one you suggest,  people are not going to self police.  TBH,  I would generally agree with DMX's implied sentiments that cloud computing is what will solve the problem.  Sadly,  with governments unable to address the issue,  the only solution is cloud computing (Actually,  not strictly cloud computing,  the server won't process gameplay,  just transfer levels as required).

As far as activation goes,  TBH,  this isn't so different from the solutions used during the early computing era.  Code wheels or pausing the game and requiring you to reference a user's manual.  It was in use until the mid-90's.  You got one code wheel with your game,  if you lost it,  your problem.  At the time,  there was no internet to give you the answers.  More than a few games were even devious about it,  like Sid Meirs Pirates,  if you failed the user manual check it would keep playing,  but you were destined to lose all of your fights. 

To be honest it doesn't just have to be just convince friends or people know not to steal copies, it can also involve coming up with better solutions. Better however does not mean none (something CDPR has just seen for themselves).

I think if people spend less time shooting down ideas and ways instead spend more time trying to find ways then they would be of more help.

In the end we have a section of people in general who like no DRM, no consequences because there is no guarentee of 100% proof of targeting right person and also at same time shoot down all the ideas the industry comes up with (industry as in still people like you and me sitting at a desk somewhere only employeed as part of a company, trying to figure out better ways) without coming up with more full proof solutions themselves. If just shoot down ideas and not come up with better then thats no different than doing nothing at all, which I am against. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:22 .

[Wardka]

Forbidden wrote...
 I don't, but it was my understanding that they're making quite a bit of money with those "micro" transactions.  Even with a large number of people who opt not to pay, they still make money.  I don't know if it's a good system, I'm not really interested in it, but I've been told many of them are doing quite well financially.

Indeed. Most MMOs that were originally P2P and have now gone F2P suffer none of the things described in such sweeping generalizations before. Dungeons & Dragons Online is a fantastic example of an extraordinarily successful and fair F2P business model.

But I must admit I'm not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand here, which is customer exploitation via Origin.

Modifié par Wardka, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:23 .

[Wardka]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

To be honest it doesn't just have to be just convince friends or people know not to steal copies, it can also involve coming up with better solutions. Better however does not mean none (something CDPR has just seen for themselves).

What? Why not, exactly?

[Dragoonlordz]

Wardka wrote...

Forbidden wrote...
 I don't, but it was my understanding that they're making quite a bit of money with those "micro" transactions.  Even with a large number of people who opt not to pay, they still make money.  I don't know if it's a good system, I'm not really interested in it, but I've been told many of them are doing quite well financially.

Indeed. Most MMOs that were originally P2P and have now gone F2P suffer none of the things described in such sweeping generalizations before. Dungeons & Dragons Online is a fantastic example of an extraordinarily successful and fair F2P business model.

But I must admit I'm not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand here, which is customer exploitation via Origin.

There will always be exceptions, I am slightly surprised I have to point that out. It does not make my statement any less true. Go to MMORPG and look at the thousand+ MMOs on there. I played around over hundred of those and they were exactly as I discribed. If a couple do well it doesn't change what I said. I am pretty sure I actually said "most" rather than "all".

Go google Perfect World, most of their titles your looking at thousands (most who do not make micro transactions) and not millions of players for each of there F2P titles and they also supply/host P2P types too. Go look up Aeria Games which is another major one which has to supply many MMO's to make large profits because the amount of players in each is again in the thousands (most who do not make micro transactions) and not millions. There are many more examples. Out of the hundreds I have played by such publishers they tend to share support staff between titles which saves them money.

Granted last time I played one was about year ago but I am quite sure it hasn't change enough to debunk my original statement in past year.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:38 .

[MingWolf]

Last I recall, CDPR sold their game quite well. It may have been pirated a lot, but so do games with DRM. Their bossman even said that sales have exceeded their expectations last month.

[Dragoonlordz]

Wardka wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

To be honest it doesn't just have to be just convince friends or people know not to steal copies, it can also involve coming up with better solutions. Better however does not mean none (something CDPR has just seen for themselves).

What? Why not, exactly?

If you even have to ask then wow....

No DRM and no risk of punishment will increase theft of work (copies) not decrease it.

If you think thats not true then I think you (seriously) lack common sense.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:41 .

[Dragoonlordz]

MingWolf wrote...

Last I recall, CDPR sold their game quite well. It may have been pirated a lot, but so do games with DRM. Their bossman even said that sales have exceeded their expectations last month.

Sales in spite of piracy is seporate to reduction in piracy due to policy.

They did not (imho) have less people steal because they had no DRM, in fact I would say the amount of thefts of copies increased due to this even though sales was good due to producing a great title (and for some being DRM free).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:42 .

[Wardka]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Wardka wrote...

Forbidden wrote...
 I don't, but it was my understanding that they're making quite a bit of money with those "micro" transactions.  Even with a large number of people who opt not to pay, they still make money.  I don't know if it's a good system, I'm not really interested in it, but I've been told many of them are doing quite well financially.

Indeed. Most MMOs that were originally P2P and have now gone F2P suffer none of the things described in such sweeping generalizations before. Dungeons & Dragons Online is a fantastic example of an extraordinarily successful and fair F2P business model.

But I must admit I'm not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand here, which is customer exploitation via Origin.

There will always be exceptions, I am slightly surprised I have to point that out. It does not make my statement any less true. Go to MMORPG and look at the thousand+ MMOs on there. I played around over hundred of those and they were exactly as I discribed. If a couple do well it doesn't change what I said. I am pretty sure I actually said "most" rather than "all".

Go google Perfect World, most of their titles your looking at thousands (most who do not make micro transactions) and not millions of players for each of there F2P titles and they also supply/host P2P types too. Go look up Aeria Games which is another major one which has to supply many MMO's to make large profits because the amount of players in each is again in the thousands (most who do not make micro transactions) and not millions. There are many more examples. Out of the hundreds I have played by such publishers they tend to share support staff between titles which saves them money.

You're talking about the mass-produced MMOs that more often than not cater to the Asian market, though. But pretty much every western P2P MMO that has gone F2P has massively increased its profits and userbase. DDO, DCO, Champions, EQ2, etc etc.

[Dragoonlordz]

Wardka wrote...

You're talking about the mass-produced MMOs that more often than not cater to the Asian market, though. But pretty much every western P2P MMO that has gone F2P has massively increased its profits and userbase. DDO, DCO, Champions, EQ2, etc etc.

That is true, because most of those were F2P long before the west caught on hence why most of the one's I played were of that type.

[MingWolf]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

MingWolf wrote...

Last I recall, CDPR sold their game quite well. It may have been pirated a lot, but so do games with DRM. Their bossman even said that sales have exceeded their expectations last month.

Sales in spite of piracy is seporate to reduction in piracy due to policy.

Okay.  So, do you really think it has made them any worst off than those who use partially functional DRM?  

Their CEO still think it isn't worth it:

www.pcgamer.com/2011/11/29/interview-cd-projekts-ceo-on-witcher-2-piracy-why-drms-still-not-worth-it/

[Wardka]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Wardka wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

To be honest it doesn't just have to be just convince friends or people know not to steal copies, it can also involve coming up with better solutions. Better however does not mean none (something CDPR has just seen for themselves).

What? Why not, exactly?

If you even have to ask then wow....

No DRM and no risk of punishment will increase theft of work (copies) not decrease it.

If you think thats not truethen I think you (seriously) lack common sense.

Oh really. I'm getting exceedingly tired of your condescending posts in this thread. The only number that matters is the number of sold copies. That's the only money the company will ever see. Then take a look at Minecraft - 4.7 million sold copies. Why? Because it's extremely good value for the money. It's a fantastic affordable game with immense replayability. People pirate it, but they also buy it because it's just that awesome. The Witcher 2 has sold a significant number of copies as well.

And I'm trying my damndest to respect Stanley's request and talk about DRM and sales instead of piracy here, I really am.

[AshedMan]

Here's a question that I would love an answer to.

Chris and Stanley, how do you personally feel about the neglect of 40 million gamers on the Steam platform? Does it feel good to know that a game your studio probably poured their hearts and souls into is being skipped over by true fans of the series because of EA's blundering?

[slimgrin]

The reason we get clients has nothing to do with piracy. I normally disagree with this guy, but on this he is right. Who are pirates stealing from? In some caes, they are stealing from companies who have stolen the copyright from the creators themselves. There's little justification needed when you're stealing from the devil. Maybe publishers need to clean up their act first.

http://www.escapistm...ndo-EA-and-SOPA

Modifié par slimgrin, 28 janvier 2012 - 12:56 .