3659 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Truth is Ottemis....I am not affected by it since I am on console. I am merely curious as I will probably take the answer as an indication of where the company is headed (both EA and Bioware)

[Nevara]

count_4 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

If the concerned gamers themselves decided to speak up, in a way that conveyed their concerns directly to EA and not relying on a handful of middlemen, that would be tens of thousands of people. That is a little harder to ignore.

You are certainly right that an organized sh*tstorm would be best. However, I still haven't seen a reasonable idea to accomplish that.
I'll try to spread my little site (see signature) a little further but I just don't  think it's possible to reach that many people to actually make a difference.

Bah!  I have been trying to catch up on all this for days, but finally accomplished it.  

@count_4: you have my vote and I hope that it comes out on steam w/o Origin.  And this is from a dedicated 360 player who's just starting to get into PC gaming.  With stuff like this, it almost feels like a deterent.

[Ottemis]

crimzontearz wrote...

Truth is Ottemis....I am not affected by it since I am on console. I am merely curious as I will probably take the answer as an indication of where the company is headed (both EA and Bioware)

Ya true, fair enough.

[jamesp81]

count_4 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
 What matters is what the Origin software is directing Windows to scan.

Origin isn't - that's the whole point of EA's comment on this.
Origin is using an API call that has the side-effect of scanning that directory, no matter what Origin does. If that is the case you can neither blame Origin for it nor does it hurt in any way.

ORIGIN NEVER DID SCAN FILES DIRECTLY.  WINDOWS SOFTWARE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

The statement they made was that Origin uses a Windows function to access information.  It did that back when it was scanning people's entire hard drives, and it still does even after the supposed behavioral changes.  All software that runs on Windows, legit or not, makes calls the various APIs provided by Microsoft to faciliate disk operations.  That has never not been the case.

Saying what they said is like a car company saying "Don't worry, thieves can't steal your car because they don't have the key to start it" except they said it 100 years after key-start became the standard.

As a statement, it's completely accurate and, yet, utterly without meaning.

[jamesp81]

Ottemis wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Do you seriously think they won't break the EULA if it suits them to do so?

I think it highly unlikely they would change the EULA in any way that would negatively impact us now or this privacy concearn, yes. You are free to think differently.

Indeed I am.

Modifié par jamesp81, 17 janvier 2012 - 03:52 .

[Ottemis]

Let's nerd-rage about it. Because that's useful somehow?

[Jonathan Shepard]

BaronIveagh wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote..

Other peoples view and opinions are no more or less valid than your own and that works both ways, but if you come at them in such a condescending and belittling way it does your view and opinion no credit. 

Sadly, he does have a point: most gamers reaction to getting hosed is apathy rather than outrage.

Customer bases shouldn't fear thier game companies, game companies should fear thier customer bases.

While not the best execution of a V for Vendetta reference I've ever seen, the appropriateness of the situation calls for it. I applaud you.

[billy the squid]

Merkar wrote...

AndrewRogue wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Do you seriously think they won't break the EULA if it suits them to do so?

Depends on their interest in class action suits.

What class action lawsuits?

No, it does not apply in respect of an act which renders their own EULA void. They have removed the use of class action law suits due to the proliferation of such actions in the US with all and sundry jumping on the bandwagon.

However, individually you are allowed to proceed via binding arbitration, in which case the terms are actually rather reasonable, paticularly what EA will fund on your behalf in terms of costs if you win your case. In the EU and other coutries EA has been forced to back down because removing class action is illegal, so EULA had to be redrafted for the EU.

In addition although modifying their own EULA without user acceptance is a little shady in function, it will depend if one is able to opt out of the patch/ DLC download or not, which contains the updated EULA. If the opt out is available and the game stiill functions then you have chosen to continue on the original terms not on the updated terms and are bound by them. The problem is that patches should not contain a new EULA as technically they are not a product, but an existing service, possibly it could be construed as new terms of service, the original EULA being limited to the original form of the IP, not subsequent service updates.

Modifié par billy the squid, 17 janvier 2012 - 04:05 .

[count_4]

jamesp81 wrote...
ORIGIN NEVER DID SCAN FILES DIRECTLY.  WINDOWS SOFTWARE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

The statement they made was that Origin uses a Windows function to access information.  It did that back when it was scanning people's entire hard drives, and it still does even after the supposed behavioral changes.  All software that runs on Windows, legit or not, makes calls the various APIs provided by Microsoft to faciliate disk operations.  That has never not been the case.

Saying what they said is like a car company saying "Don't worry, thieves can't steal your car because they don't have the key to start it" except they said it 100 years after key-start became the standard.

As a statement, it's completely accurate and, yet, utterly without meaning.

I know how Windows software works, thank you.

The points remains the same: The only thing Origin does is change some permissions. It does that using the Windows API as you pointed out. However it does not use the Windows API to scan files. The Windows API does it all by itself without relaying the information of the scan to Origin.
Origin does neither initiate the scan nor does it receive the resulting information.

Or towards your statements: EA does not excuse the scanning by saying that Windows accessed the files but by telling us that Windows accessed the files as an automatically executed standard procedure within the API that is related to a change of permissions for a file/folder.

If you write software that has to change permissions for a file and Windows scans a whole directory in the process without you doing anything would you feel responsible? Surely not, how could you - it's not your fault.

[Dragoonlordz]

BaronIveagh wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote..

Other peoples view and opinions are no more or less valid than your own and that works both ways, but if you come at them in such a condescending and belittling way it does your view and opinion no credit. 

Sadly, he does have a point: most gamers reaction to getting hosed is apathy rather than outrage.

Customer bases shouldn't fear thier game companies, game companies should fear thier customer bases.

I personally have no fear of EA, fear of corporations or game companies. I already mentioned in past on this thread itself I do not live my life with the fear of what might happen. This is retrospectiive to from both what has come before and what is present. The simple fact is we just have different opinions on what is and what is not offensive, different priorities on principles and personalities whether realist, pessimist or optimist.

As far as I am concerned if wish to take an idealistic approach then no, companies should not 'fear' their customers at all of which you stated you believe they should do. If you have to use fear to get your way then you are no better than the ones you hate. The word you should of used is respect and not fear. Whether you feel they respect you or not is an individuals choice, perception and is on the same principle of trust. Different folks, different stokes. 

Edit: I believe this is borderline on/off topic however so I will leave it at that, in order to not cross that line.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 janvier 2012 - 04:21 .

[Alex_SM]

Companies shall respect their customers... but that doesn't happen.

[casadechrisso]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I personally have no fear of EA, fear of corporations or game companies. I already mentioned in past on this thread itself I do not live my life with the fear of what might happen. This is retrospectiive to from both what has come before and what is present. 

I'm on the contrary, due to past experience with EA. Huge trouble getting my DLCs back, absolutely useless support, being tricked... not to mention the banhammer issues and general unfriendliness. I also see, in my opinion, a general drop in quality when it comes to Bioware since EA took over, and currently Bioware games are the worst when it comes to DLCs (a topic too much for this thread atm).
I give nothing on EA, I really really don't trust them. So call me parnoid, I call my self rather realistic - from my point of view. 

Modifié par casadechrisso, 17 janvier 2012 - 04:23 .

[Massefeckt]

Oh and by the way the restrictive rules Steam put in place is that you have to make DLC available to Steam customers. EA is the only company to object to this. Quite how good customer service is restrictive I'm yet to figure out. Steam isn't saying they can't sell it anywhere else just that if you supply a game to Steam users you need to make DLC available to them to. I guess not being able to overcharge people for "Points" upsets the suits. Why do we need points again? Why is real money not good enough? Oh right you can't buy the exact amount you need you have to spend more than the cost of the product you want so they can pocket the overcharge.

If you want to see what EA policies do to company's like Bioware take a look at Westwood and what happened to them once EA took over. Wrung it for as much money as they could and then closed it down. Just don't say you weren't warned.

[jamesp81]

count_4 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
ORIGIN NEVER DID SCAN FILES DIRECTLY.  WINDOWS SOFTWARE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

The statement they made was that Origin uses a Windows function to access information.  It did that back when it was scanning people's entire hard drives, and it still does even after the supposed behavioral changes.  All software that runs on Windows, legit or not, makes calls the various APIs provided by Microsoft to faciliate disk operations.  That has never not been the case.

Saying what they said is like a car company saying "Don't worry, thieves can't steal your car because they don't have the key to start it" except they said it 100 years after key-start became the standard.

As a statement, it's completely accurate and, yet, utterly without meaning.

The points remains the same: The only thing Origin does is change some permissions. It does that using the Windows API as you pointed out. However it does not use the Windows API to scan files. The Windows API does it all by itself without relaying the information of the scan to Origin.
Origin does neither initiate the scan nor does it receive the resulting information.

I would be very interested in knowing just where you came by that information.

Furthermore, if Microsoft's API is scanning the files and NOT passing the info to Origin, what is the point of initiating the scan in the first place?  OSes don't randomly do things like scan files just for the hell of it.  There's a reason.

[Dragoonlordz]

Massefeckt wrote...

I guess not being able to overcharge people for "Points" upsets the suits. Why do we need points again? Why is real money not good enough? Oh right you can't buy the exact amount you need you have to spend more than the cost of the product you want so they can pocket the overcharge.

So exactly like Microsoft do then on XBL. Yet truly vast amounts of people are happy to use points system on there.

I happen to prefer using GBP than points but I guess I must be misinformed or delusional because I can and have bought DLC for Bioware's products without using the points system and that is (including) through Origin as well as other places. The points system however is a popular one on other formats so I do not see any reason why EA is the spawn of satan for having that option. If you do not see it as an option then refer to my first sentence in this paragraph regarding the bolded part.

A quick glance on Origin and can see right away as example Pinnacle Station DLC is on there at £3.99, not 300 points; not 800 points but instead GBP (£).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 janvier 2012 - 04:37 .

[Niki78]

count_4 wrote...

The points remains the same: The only thing Origin does is change some permissions. It does that using the Windows API as you pointed out. However it does not use the Windows API to scan files. The Windows API does it all by itself without relaying the information of the scan to Origin.
Origin does neither initiate the scan nor does it receive the resulting information.

I've been programming with Windows API for about 15 years, and I find that claim very dubious. The Windows API does pretty much what you tell it to do, nothing more. (Why should changing one file trigger a scan in completely different directories??)

If EA wants us to believe this, they should release sample source code that demonstrates that changing one file's security permissions leads to a scan in a different directory. Until then, I will treat Origin as malware/spyware.

[Harley_Dude]

@Drangonlordz - The point system on XBL is not well received. They have begun offering actual currency sales due to complaints.

[count_4]

jamesp81 wrote...
I would be very interested in knowing just where you came by that information.

Furthermore, if Microsoft's API is scanning the files and NOT passing the info to Origin, what is the point of initiating the scan in the first place?  OSes don't randomly do things like scan files just for the hell of it.  There's a reason.

Well, EA told us exactly that and they have no reason to lie, especially after all the fuss that has been made about the Origin client.
The know people would find out.

And I'm sure there is a reason for scanning the files. Maybe it's housekeeping (update file meta data, checking for something...). 
Anyway, if I'm utterly bored this evening I might play around a little with WIndows and the WinAPI. We'll see...

Niki78 wrote...

I've been programming with Windows API for about 15 years, and I find that claim very dubious. The Windows API does pretty much what you tell it to do, nothing more. (Why should changing one file trigger a scan in completely different directories??)

That's why I asked about which permissions are edited earlier. To see in which relation the scanned directory (the global app data folder) and the permission change stand.

Modifié par count_4, 17 janvier 2012 - 04:42 .

[Dragoonlordz]

The Harley Dude wrote...

@Drangonlordz - The point system on XBL is not well received. They have begun offering actual currency sales due to complaints.

And yet I have friends who only wish to deal in points. This includes from membership top ups to purchases. A points system helps those who do not have a credit or debit card as well as those who have a preference who may like it.

As an alternative and an extra option (see my last post), there is no need to remove it.

Anyway's I am not sure where this discussion will lead, but I am sure it will not lead in the right direction so I'll stop there.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 17 janvier 2012 - 04:50 .

[MarauderESP]

count_4 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
I would be very interested in knowing just where you came by that information.

Furthermore, if Microsoft's API is scanning the files and NOT passing the info to Origin, what is the point of initiating the scan in the first place?  OSes don't randomly do things like scan files just for the hell of it.  There's a reason.

Well, EA told us exactly that and they have no reason to lie, especially after all the fuss that has been made about the Origin client.
The know people would find out.

And I'm sure there is a reason for scanning the files. Maybe it's housekeeping (update file meta data, checking for something...). 
Anyway, if I'm utterly bored this evening I might play around a little with WIndows and the WinAPI. We'll see...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ this is enough reason, as someone said earlier API don´t do anything unless u command to it, maybe they can sell that to ppl who don´t have programing knowloge, but for those u have that is a different matter, anyway its imposible for me to trust someone that change its policies from we´re going to SALE ur information gattered by origin to third parties, to we share some infomation with allied third parties, to we will never do that with ur info (we know ur worried with the usage of your info, bla bla bla), in a month..... how for the god sake can i trust some company with any data if they dont know what they are doing or know how their own programs work....

on a side note ill rent me3 to ps3 to finish it, its a shame most of my saves are on pc, i just have 1 on ps3 <_<

[craigdolphin]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I respect your position and admire your determination. i also hold out the hope that some of those who choose not to buy due to Origin will have cause to change their minds, and that they remain within our community to keep talking to us.

All that is required is that you modify the EULA for Origin to Not give yourself permission to scan non-EA files folders, and to ensure that we can keep access to our legally purchased games even if falsely accused of breaking forum posting rules (as has happened to other people already) or in the event that we refuse to agree to future changes to the EULA or TOS. In other words, make it respect our privacy and ensure that we get what we pay for.

Do that and I'll pre order ME3 that same day. Do it not, and I'll buy a secondhand copy for console instead. It's legal, I still get to play, and i get to vote with my wallet and you get nothing. And ah, yeah, forget about me paying you for any dlc for it either. Can't vote with my wallet if I bought that stuff after all.

Yes, I am holding a grudge: after all the times these kinds of issues have been raised on these forums since ME1 DRM was announced, you guys should know better than this by now. But whatever, there are lots of other games out there. As you've said: this is an offer. I am refusing this offer. You can try and sweeten the terms, or go without my cash.

[Zargon VII]

Origin = no sale. Bioware is dead to me now and I have bought Bioware games since the original Baldur's Gate. I may give in and finish the series on PS3 but I will be damn sure to buy used if I do so EA doesn't see a dime. It will also be the last Bioware game I ever play.

[Harley_Dude]

I think it is a safe bet the third parties they share data with will be the authorities if they suspect anything they find during their illegal search was obtained in shady methods.

[jamesp81]

craigdolphin wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I respect your position and admire your determination. i also hold out the hope that some of those who choose not to buy due to Origin will have cause to change their minds, and that they remain within our community to keep talking to us.

All that is required is that you modify the EULA for Origin to Not give yourself permission to scan non-EA files folders, and to ensure that we can keep access to our legally purchased games even if falsely accused of breaking forum posting rules (as has happened to other people already) or in the event that we refuse to agree to future changes to the EULA or TOS. In other words, make it respect our privacy and ensure that we get what we pay for.

Do that and I'll pre order ME3 that same day. Do it not, and I'll buy a secondhand copy for console instead. It's legal, I still get to play, and i get to vote with my wallet and you get nothing. And ah, yeah, forget about me paying you for any dlc for it either. Can't vote with my wallet if I bought that stuff after all.

Yes, I am holding a grudge: after all the times these kinds of issues have been raised on these forums since ME1 DRM was announced, you guys should know better than this by now. But whatever, there are lots of other games out there. As you've said: this is an offer. I am refusing this offer. You can try and sweeten the terms, or go without my cash.

While I am not holding a grudge, I agree with much of this post.

A modification of the EULA to disallow scanning of files not directly related to EA would be enough for me to change my mind.

As it is, if the EULA leaves open the legal possibility of data mining,  I cannot in good conscience install it.

[Jackal7713]

Zargon VII wrote...

Origin = no sale. Bioware is dead to me now and I have bought Bioware games since the original Baldur's Gate. I may give in and finish the series on PS3 but I will be damn sure to buy used if I do so EA doesn't see a dime. It will also be the last Bioware game I ever play.

For real? Origin is just making sure to protect their software rights. They are not going into the files systems to raid your computer. Its just like the software protection that Microsoft uses on Windows. Are you going to get rid of Windows because they do they same thing? Also, its not just these two doing it. Adobe, Apple, Norton, etc., all have software protection. This should only make people who want to torrent their software mad, because they aren't getting it for free.