3659 réponses à ce sujet

[SFisherBG]

I have a question. After i receive my copy of the game can i just redeem the code in Origin and never use the DVD installation disk. I just want to down load it trough Origin.

[didymos1120]

Since they'll let you do that with all their other recent games, I'm gonna say that's a "Yes".

[fchopin]

Lumikki wrote...

Real issue is not WHAT files are scanned. Real issue is transfering information out side of our computer without asking permission, ANY information. Issue is that EA doesn't let people make they own choices, but deside that EA's own needs are more important than customers computer privacy. It's lack of respect for they own customers, what drops the credibility.

Issue is they decissions over us, we don't have a choices, even when it's about us and our property.  It's forcefull software installation and rude intrusion of computer privacy. How can we trust someone, who doesn't respect our freedom of make our own choices?

I agree with your interpretation, you have named the problem correctly.

+1

Modifié par fchopin, 20 janvier 2012 - 09:17 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

fchopin wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Real issue is not WHAT files are scanned. Real issue is transfering information out side of our computer without asking permission, ANY information. Issue is that EA doesn't let people make they own choices, but deside that EA's own needs are more important than customers computer privacy. It's lack of respect for they own customers, what drops the credibility.

Issue is they decissions over us, we don't have a choices, even when it's about us and our property.  It's forcefull software installation and rude intrusion of computer privacy. How can we trust someone, who doesn't respect our freedom of make our own choices?

I agree with your interpretation, you have named the problem correctly.

+1

Yup. That's exactly the point.

There are limits to what I can stomach and this has gone too far. EA entered my list of companies to avoid along with Ubisoft (for their 24/7 online DRM for SP games and Sony for their audio CD rootkit and buying SecuROM (a rootkit based DRM scheme)).

[casadechrisso]

Thank you demex for your replies. It's good to see that someone directly involved in the developing process steps up and answers some question. However, a few points from a naive end user without enough brain to get into technical details:

dmex wrote...

Your IP and MAC address by itself contain no personal information, They don't contain your name, address, DOB or any other personal data.

But this can easily be linked together with the other data EA collects, no? This was one of the major concerns raised - Origin collects anonymized data for marketing purposes and then in the very next step reads out your MAC Adress and IP that are unique and bound to one specific user... link those two and boom.

dmex wrote...

2. I'm not aware of a different EULA or seperate Origin client 
for German users. If you can http://pastebin.com the EULA found in the Origin install directory I'll take a look.

This actually surprises me because the chief developer of Origin was taking part (via videochat) in the discussion with community members in the EA headquarters in Cologne. I was under the impression that the privacy concerns of German users and this meeting made the round at EA  quickly, given that many of the higher suits were present. On the other side, if it didn't make the round, it's disappointing for the German community nevertheless, given they were said that EA takes them very serious and their concerns will be adressed with high priority. The German EULA can be found here - however I'm not sure if a document in German language will really help you. The Opt-in/out features for German citizens are mentioned in Chris' FAQ on page one, the original post.

dmex wrote...
You're welcome, A thread 65 pages long needs some official attention and I hope to be able to alleviate any concerns or questions you might have.

About 320 by now. Almost 100 here, 220 in the previous thread.

dmex wrote...You won't need to be a programmer to make changes, I could remove all the friends code and rebuild the client within a few minutes if users desired.

This is important, because many of us are simply users who just don't want to deal with nerdy things. EA/Bioware promises us the best user experience and that's the only thing we want: Install game and play away, without having to deal with, sorry, bloatware, and also without having to set up a sandbox, reconfiguring firewalls, or even use a VM or second windows partition just to be able to play.
All this isn't the best user experience, we just want to doubleclick that ME3 icon and play away without any further annoyances.
And that'd be what I hope your OpenOrigin can deliver us too: Ease of use, something even a retard like me can use without having to think much, and with the option to play without any further bloat. I don't want chat or anything even though it's certainly cool that you can provide that for people who want it. I just want my game to run, and my DLCs too.

dmex wrote...
Origin won't be required, as for the DRM it's handled seperate from Origin by the games themself and is what has allowed me to create OpenOrigin.

This actually only confuses me. But I'll just keep watching I guess.

dmex wrote...

Forbidden wrote... 
I've seen many reports of banning people from single player games with EA representatives explaining it specifically as you can't play single player when your account is banned.

 

Thats not entirely true, You can still play your games.

But we heard the opposite from many sources, one being that rockpapershotgun article linked before. And I heard it happened already a year ago and EA made up some excuses, and now it still happens. If it never happened, great, but I don't believe that it never happened, otherwise there wouldn't have been so many news about it and apologies from EA.

dmex wrote...
I do know that also covers Support techs asking what OS you have and what software you have installed to help troubbleshoot problems with your games. "Software Usage" should be only about Origin telemety such as it's start-up time, what windows use the most and performance counters such as it's memory usage.

dmex

Now that you mention "what OS" and software usage - a little different topic but are there actually plans to bring Origin to the Mac side? EA is probably the largest publisher of Mac games, yet they offer no way to actually buy them digitally. I think some games are even only distributed digitally, I've never seen Dragon Age: Origins as a Mac disc anywhere. So it exists as a digital download but there's no way to get it, not even from the one who made it.... compared to Steam and it's multiplatform support and SteamPlay feature, this is really a little bit embarrassing, no?

Anyway, thanks so far for the insights, looking forward for more.

Modifié par casadechrisso, 20 janvier 2012 - 10:04 .

[Bostur]

@dmex

Thanks for clarifying some issues. I realize you are mostly working on the technical side, and may not be involved in all aspects of Origin. I also read some of your interesting posts on the EA forum. I'd say that the prospect of an Open Source client is an interesting development, but I remain skeptical on this matter. Especially because some companies in the past have attempted to use Open Source as a smokescreen to pretend openness when in practice the applications needed closed source binary code to compile or link. Which would defeat the whole purpose of an open system.

On the matter of the DRM aspect of Origin, you do make some rather extraordinary claims compared to official information, and compared to some reported user experiences.

You mention that the DRM is separate from the actual Origin client and that at least in theory Origin won't be required to play the games. If this is the case this would be very good news for a lot of players, but it is directly contradicting the official information given by Rick Priestly in this thread and the official EULA.

1) Will Origin be a requirement to play all versions of Mass Effect 3? (Digital and/or from a retail brick and mortar store)
Yes, Origin is required for all PC editions of Mass Effect 3, physical or digital.

2) Is constant Origin connection required or is it a single one off authentication when the game is first installed. Is there also a limit to the number of installations available?
Mass Effect 3 will require a one time, single authorization for the single player game. There is no limit to the number of installs. Playing Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer will require a constant connection.

3) Is Origin required for the retail versions of the game?
Origin is required for the PC versions of Mass Effect 3, both physical and digital.

This might suggest that DRM is only used to authenticate the game during install, which would match what you say.

However when looking at this answer:

9)Can I install Origin, install Mass Effect 3 and then uninstall Origin and keep playing Mass Effect 3? Even if I only want to play the Single Player Game?
Mass Effect 3 requires Origin to be played, so you cannot play Mass Effect 3 without Origin being installed. This applies to both the single player and multiplayer games.

This suggest that there is also a run-time authentication involved, and that the DRM is not separate from the Origin client. The information given seems very unclear. Especially compared to your information.



On the matter of access rights you say that an EA ban will not affect access to the games. Again this claim seems contrary to the experience of some users as reported on various websites. Also EA seems to have a rather hard time getting it's story straight in this matter. You mention that you were banned on one occasion, could you play your single-player games when the ban was active?

The ability and intent of publishers to revoke user rights from people who purchased a game is an important concern in regards to digital distribution and online DRM. Who really owns the right to use the software? Without some guarantee that the games remain playable online DRM puts consumers in a very vulnerable situation.

[Mister Mida]

Although I like how dmex has explained the scope of how far we can go to modify OpenOrigin (and it's quite far in my semi-proffesional opinion), I'm still not planning on using Origin in any shape or form. Maybe once OpenOrigin comes out and I have the time and motivation to look into it myself, I might.

Bostur wrote...
Especially because some companies in the past
have attempted to use Open Source as a smokescreen to pretend openness
when in practice the applications needed closed source binary code to
compile or link. Which would defeat the whole purpose of an open system.

Agreed. If there are strings attached it's kinda pointless.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 20 janvier 2012 - 10:21 .

[Bostur]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Please do not discuss methods of circumventing Origins in this forum. Continuing to participate in such discussions may result in your post being edited or removed, all the way up to and including a forum ban for discussing forbidden topics and failing to heed Moderator instructions or warnings.

Could you please clarify what you mean by 'Circumventing Origin' so we know what technical aspects we can discuss. Origin has a lot of functionality and it's not easy to guess what functionality you are refering to.

[Nemotenetur]

dmex wrote...

hotedge wrote...
@ dmex regardless of how origin operates now (bug or no bug) how running origin in a silicon container is circumventing its DRM after all you being on the EA Security Risk Management Team

Sandboxing Origin is not circumventing the DRM, as it doesn't interfere with the DRM in such way that allows you to bypass it.

Thank you very much for coming in here and addressing our concerns Some people will undoubtedly see this as the perfect chance to spew some of their bile in a disrespectful manner, but know that I for one really appreciate you making the effort, and I'm sure the majority of the posters (and lurkers!) feel the same.

[Bostur]

casadechrisso wrote...

dmex wrote...

Your IP and MAC address by itself contain no personal information, They don't contain your name, address, DOB or any other personal data.

But this can easily be linked together with the other data EA collects, no? This was one of the major concerns raised - Origin collects anonymized data for marketing purposes and then in the very next step reads out your MAC Adress and IP that are unique and bound to one specific user... link those two and boom.

Indeed, from a practical point of view the combination of IP and MAC adress is a lot more personal than a name. After all very few people have unique names.

[Mister Mida]

Forbidden wrote...

dmex wrote...

Forbidden wrote...Will the open source version authenticate the games' DRM?  i.e. Can I play ME3 without ever installing the closed source version of Origin?

Origin won't be required, as for the DRM it's handled seperate from Origin by the games themself and is what has allowed me to create OpenOrigin.

Then why is Origin or OpenOrigin required for a game to be played at all?  My understanding is that Steam's DRM, for instance, authorizes the games itself.  The games executable hooks to steam and steam tells it whether it should run or not, so if you try and run a Steam DRM'd game without Steam running, it won't work.  But what I think you're saying here is that the DRM is self-contained (contacting EA servers for initial auth directly).  If that's the case, then why is Bioware saying Origin needs to be running?  I can understand if you don't want to get too specific on the DRM process as proprietary, that's perfectly understandable, it just seems like Bioware says the Origin executable must be running for ME3 to work, but you're suggesting only an Origin account at EA's servers would be needed.  (Presumably, if the game is contacting EA directly to evaluate the DRM, the account would need to exist there)  So is this just a slight miscommunication between EA and Bioware?  (i.e. Like ToR, an Origin account is required, but the actual Origin Software doesn't need to be running)

This is something I'm curious about as well, since it sounds like it could've been integrated into the games itself like DA: O did or something like Games for Windows Live, both sounding way better than having some crappy Steam-like overlay slapped on top of it.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 20 janvier 2012 - 10:39 .

[Troodon80]

I appreciate the clarification on the issues, dmex. I will certainly consider using OpenOrigin over Origin any day. Better still is the ability to program it the way I want (can I ask what language it is in? Apologies if you have already stated).

Though, it makes me wonder why EA wouldn't just use it instead of the current.

Or give the customer the choice between Origin and a (possibly trimmed down, less obtrusive, game activation only) version of OpenOrigin.

dmex wrote...

They don't contain your name, address, DOB or any other personal data.

Not disagreeing for the most part. EA doesn't know where I live since my ISP acts as a proxy. My IP Address shows up as being in the UK most of the time, whereas I am actually not.

But in the majority of cases, static IP Addresses (and in quite a few cases, even dynamic addresses (I know of a few)) can be traced back to a specific location using something as simple as whatismyip.com.

Example of a random IP Address typed into that website.

I am surprised that you don't know this. Or that you are telling people the opposite of what you do know.

[dmex]

 

Forbidden wrote...Then why is Origin or OpenOrigin required for a game to be played at all?My understanding is that Steam's DRM, for instance, authorizes the games itself.  The games executable hooks to steam and steam tells it whether it should run or not, so if you try and run a Steam DRM'd game without Steam running, it won't work.  But what I think you're saying here is that the DRM is self-contained (contacting EA servers for initial auth directly).  If that's the case, then why is Bioware saying Origin needs to be running?  I can understand if you don't want to get too specific on the DRM process as proprietary, that's perfectly understandable, it just seems like Bioware says the Origin executable must be running for ME3 to work, but you're suggesting only an Origin account at EA's servers would be needed.  (Presumably, if the game is contacting EA directly to evaluate the DRM, the account would need to exist there)  So is this just a slight miscommunication between EA and Bioware?  (i.e. Like ToR, an Origin account is required, but the actual Origin Software doesn't need to be running)

The miscommunication would be in the explanation of how the two relate, Hopefully I can clear up the difference.

Origin handles what cd-key you have and the Single-Sign-On Token thats required for webclient calls to our services, DRM handles your game cd-key and cd-key activation.

The two are separate entities, right now Origin is the only software capable of authenticating with our services for the SSO token, this token is then used by games to access our other services, it's a required component but separate from your cd-key and it's activation (DRM).

Origin would indeed be required to be running for games to query the SSO token but would not be required for DRM minus initially querying your cd-key.

casadechrisso wrote...
But this can easily be linked together with the other data EA collects, no? This was one of the major concerns raised - Origin collects anonymized data for marketing purposes and then in the very next step reads out your MAC Adress and IP that are unique and bound to one specific user... link those two and boom. 

Linking IP address to an actual users account is by no means an easy task by any means, It requires manually scrolling though several million lines of access logs to match up the date/time of an service operation against an action you preformed.
IP addresses are also very unreliable due to dynamic IP's, proxies, NAT's etc... For example; you could not tell the difference between UserA and UserB on the same LAN as they would have the same IP (One ISP here proxies over 14million users behind the same IP)... We really don't care about your IP address unless your trying to hack our services or ddosing us.

Bostur wrote...
@dmex
Thanks for clarifying some issues. I realize you are mostly working on the technical side, and may not be involved in all aspects of Origin. I also read some of your interesting posts on the EA forum. I'd say that the prospect of an Open Source client is an interesting development, but I remain skeptical on this matter. Especially because some companies in the past have attempted to use Open Source as a smokescreen to pretend openness when in practice the applications needed closed source binary code to compile or link. Which would defeat the whole purpose of an open system.

You are correct; it would defeat the entire purpose of being Open-Source... Open Origin is a completely standalone binary, It does not require being installed or depend on other libraries. I'll go into more info further down.

Bostur wrote...
On the matter of the DRM aspect of Origin, you do make some rather extraordinary claims compared to official information, and compared to some reported user experiences.
You mention that the DRM is separate from the actual Origin client and that at least in theory Origin won't be required to play the games. If this is the case this would be very good news for a lot of players, but it is directly contradicting the official information given by Rick Priestly in this thread and the official EULA.

1) Will Origin be a requirement to play all versions of Mass Effect 3? (Digital and/or from a retail brick and mortar store)Yes, Origin is required for all PC editions of Mass Effect 3, physical or digital.
2) Is constant Origin connection required or is it a single one off authentication when the game is first installed. Is there also a limit to the number of installations available?Mass Effect 3 will require a one time, single authorization for the single player game. There is no limit to the number of installs. Playing Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer will require a constant connection.
3) Is Origin required for the retail versions of the game?Origin is required for the PC versions of Mass Effect 3, both physical and digital.

This might suggest that DRM is only used to authenticate the game during install, which would match what you say.
However when looking at this answer:

9)Can I install Origin, install Mass Effect 3 and then uninstall Origin and keep playing Mass Effect 3? Even if I only want to play the Single Player Game?Mass Effect 3 requires Origin to be played, so you cannot play Mass Effect 3 without Origin being installed. This applies to both the single player and multiplayer games.

This suggest that there is also a run-time authentication involved, and that the DRM is not separate from the Origin client. The information given seems very unclear. Especially compared to your information.

He is correct, Origin is required but only for the DRM software to query your cd-key and SSO token, If you consider OpenOrigin is able to provide your cd-key and SSO token in the same way then Origin becomes not so much required. The DRM is entirely separate from Origin in this regard as it relies upon something providing this information be it Origin or OpenOrigin.

Bostur wrote...
On the matter of access rights you say that an EA ban will not affect access to the games. Again this claim seems contrary to the experience of some users as reported on various websites. Also EA seems to have a rather hard time getting it's story straight in this matter. You mention that you were banned on one occasion, could you play your single-player games when the ban was active?
The ability and intent of publishers to revoke user rights from people who purchased a game is an important concern in regards to digital distribution and online DRM. Who really owns the right to use the software? Without some guarantee that the games remain playable online DRM puts consumers in a very vulnerable situation.

I've explained this some more on the EA forum, the short version is you do not lose access to your games if you banned from an EA forum or community

Troodon80 wrote...
I appreciate the clarification on the issues, dmex. I will certainly consider using OpenOrigin over Origin any day. Better still is the ability to program it the way I want (can I ask what language it is in? Apologies if you have already stated).

I've currently written the client in CSharp as the code is completely verifiable for security issues, allows both a x86 and x64 AnyCPU single binary, easily understood by C, C++, Java and VB developers while also being portable to Mono on Linux, WPF and the WinRT on Windows 8.

All 1.x versions will be written in CSharp with branches for WPF, Versions 2.x will be written in C/C++ once the majority of design has been worked out and for those that don't like the CLR.

Troodon80 wrote...Not disagreeing for the most part. EA doesn't know where I live since my ISP acts as a proxy. My IP Address shows up as being in the UK most of the time, whereas I am actually not.
But in the majority of cases, static IP Addresses (and in quite a few cases, even dynamic addresses (I know of a few)) can be traced back to a specific location using something as simple as whatismyip.com.
Example of a random IP Address typed into that website.
I am surprised that you don't know this. Or that you are telling people the opposite of what you do know.

It's still not personally identifiable, Knowing that I live in Fremantle, Western Australia where hundreds of other Origin users reside is entirely different to knowing you live at 12 Sample Rd, Mandurah, Western Australia.

Modifié par dmex, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:43 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

Thank you for your posts dmex.

[Severyx]

Thanks, dmex. This helps clear the air. As a techie myself, I can understand this information, and it definitely allows me to get a better look into the Origin client. Almost makes this whole thing seem outrageous, really. I'll take a look into OpenOrigin when I get more information on it.

[dmex]

dmex wrote...
It's still not personally identifiable, Knowing that I live in Fremantle, Western Australia where hundreds of other Origin users reside is entirely different to knowing you live at 12 Sample Rd, Mandurah, Western Australia.

Ok, I was just informed that IP addresses are legally classed as personally
identifiable information in Germany.

This is also why there is a separate Origin client for German users as it's using a local Germany EA server where this information is not logged to comply with the law.
 

[Lux]

Awesome communication deserves acknowledgment.

Hope the improvements to Origin will materialize accordingly and provide a proper user-friendly platform.

[Orionas]

guys disk check is not that a big issue, if you read the first topic (this is the second), it says that "No. Installation of Origin and verification through Origin is required instead of a disc-check."

And even if this is a small lie, you can always block all outgoing connection with a firewall and enjoy your game. The problem is, that this services force you to pay more than the original title! They force you to pay bills! In my country internet connection is bound with a phone line (landline) and it cost us 45-50 euro per month! So thats the conflict with me, they demand from us to pay, to be able to use it... and thats bad.... Never buy software that its useless without paying bills.. No point, even if we have internet, because one day is going to end up in the trash bin and I always want my games to be in my library and access them anytime I want.. That’s unrespectful , sorry bioware...

Modifié par Orionas, 20 janvier 2012 - 02:03 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Interesting input here. How about making this topic a sticky?

[Orionas]

http://social.biowar...dex/8975536/221

this is the first one..

Modifié par Orionas, 20 janvier 2012 - 02:14 .

[noctoi]

 *wanders off to cancell preorder and cry some*

I am extremely dissapointed, I was really looking forward to this game.  

[Troodon80]

dmex wrote...
It's still not personally identifiable, Knowing that I live in Fremantle, Western Australia where hundreds of other Origin users reside is entirely different to knowing you live at 12 Sample Rd, Mandurah, Western Australia.

What I mean to say is that it is not difficult to find out who those people are. The IP Address can point to the exact house in an estate (as shown in the picture linked) depending on its type. Any EA employee can use this address, if they know it, and compare it to the Registry of Electors in the UK and Ireland, which is law to be on once over 18 to my knowledge. But this is mostly besides the point, no matter what piece of software we use this information can still be obtained from the simple fact that people use this site. Such a thing won't affect me, I just thought I would point out that you can get someone's address and details about them if you really wanted to from something like the IP Address. No offence or "calling out" is intended, just a different insight.

dmex wrote...
I've currently written the client in CSharp as the code is completely verifiable for security issues, allows both a x86 and x64 AnyCPU single binary, easily understood by C, C++, Java and VB developers while also being portable to Mono on Linux, WPF and the WinRT on Windows 8.

All 1.x versions will be written in CSharp with branches for WPF, Versions 2.x will be written in C/C++ once the majority of design has been worked out and for those that don't like the CLR.

That's handy, thank you. Can't wait to try it out.

But this also brings up my previous questions. If we use this in stead of Origin, will we need to download files as part of the installation (and will OpenOrigin download them in just the same way that Origin does), or will all the necessary files be included on the disc; ready to play?

[Pupuppu]

dmex wrote...

dmex wrote...
It's still not personally identifiable, Knowing that I live in Fremantle, Western Australia where hundreds of other Origin users reside is entirely different to knowing you live at 12 Sample Rd, Mandurah, Western Australia.

Ok, I was just informed that IP addresses are legally classed as personally
identifiable information in Germany.

This is also why there is a separate Origin client for German users as it's using a local Germany EA server where this information is not logged to comply with the law.
 

Where can one download this client? All the clients here also come up with an older english EULA and I failed to see the local German EA Server contacted.

[jamesp81]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Forbidden wrote...
1) EA has no credibililty. Why should I believe you?

Because he is working on an open source verion of Origin, which should come complete with the source code for you to peruse to ensure it doesnt have any lines of code designed to upload your tax records and porn surfing habits to EA.

While I still dont trust EA, or Origin, I am at least willing to give dmex the benefit of the doubt, not only because of the open source project he is working on, but also becuase he has helped clear up misconceptions by the mods.
Not to mention it is statistically impossible for a company the size and EA to employ nothing but a-holes, and he is coming across as somewhat like Jacob. A nice guy who just has a dodgy employer. However, if he dares mention "the priiize", I shall have to reevaluate my opinion.

Edit: Yes, I realise the irony of my previous comments, by not quoting the full wall of text Forbidden wrote.

I would be willing to use an open source version of the software once it's been combed through that we know exactly what is and is not transmitted.

[jamesp81]

Your IP and MAC address by itself contain no personal information, They
don't contain your name, address, DOB or any other personal data.

I respect that you're here helping us out, but I have to disagree with you here.

IP  addresses and MAC addresses are definitely personal information, as both can be easily used to identify an individual, especially a MAC  address.

This information really should not be logged at all.  I get that it might be needed for part of the DRM authentication, but said information should be purged beyond recovery once authentication is successful.