349 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone223]

The Minority wrote...

Not racist. Just mis-trustful. Notice how she hates Terra Firma.

And also Cerberus

[Drone223]

Vilio1 wrote...

I'm no fan of aliens.

That's the same as -

I'm no fan of black people.

That is not racism, really?

If Ashley hate's alien's then why does she hate Terra Firma and Cerberus they are both very anti-alien, it doesn't make any scence for some who hate's alien's to hate a group because they hate's aliens

Modifié par Drone223, 21 janvier 2012 - 08:28 .

[slimgrin]

Ashley  was xenophobic. She seemed real, like women I've known from my neck of the woods. I didn't agree with her but that's why I liked her.

Modifié par slimgrin, 21 janvier 2012 - 08:31 .

[Nashiktal]

Vilio1 wrote...

I'm no fan of aliens.

That's the same as -

I'm no fan of black people.

That is not racism, really?

Exactly. Aliens as a whole represent foreign nations. Unlike here on earth where your skin color doesn't usually indicate what your nationality or allegience is, as far as ME1 went all aliens are foreign agents belonging to ancient empires that predate humanity by centuries (in the case of the turians, they were a galactic entity for over 1000 years before humanity came to power).

Saying she isn't a fan of aliens is more the equivilent of saying she isn't the fan of a country. So much like how much of the world would say they are not much a fan of America, or Iraq, ashley is displaying displeasure at having nonhuman's on the ship.

Aliens as a rule of thumb will look after their own people, as aliens represent one united government unlike humanity today (or humanity in Mass Effect.) Aliens can, and will look for any advanted over each other as displayed with the council multiple times. The most prominent being the use of humans to phase out batarians, or threatening to bomb quarians off of ekuna for the elcor.

Ashley just doesn't want humanity to end up another batarian, quarian, or grandpa williams.

[CptData]

Clone 071 wrote...

Spoiledrotten wrote...

Ashley isn't racist. At least, that's not something I got from her.

She isn't politically correct, she doesn't have experience with aliens and she is a cynical about the idea of the Council always looking out for humanities best interest, but I don't think that's racism.

In fact, I think she is right about that last part. Members of their own species will always be more important to them than humanity. Which is why, according to her, humanity needs to be more independent, and again, I'm inclined to agree.

This is by no means an apology for Ash, but merely my interpretation of her words.

Even so, I like her a lot. She always felt real to me, more than any other character. She had flaws, opinions, some unlikely interests, beliefs... Her stories about her family made them sound very real to me. In those few sentences I had a feeling like I actually know those characters and understand their personalities, even though I have never actually seen them.

Hotheaded, stubborn, cynical, impetuous, tough, passionate, funny, feminine, down to earth, Ash is all of those things and more, and it works. Making her one of the best Mass Effect characters in my eyes.

Wow, well said. I definitely agree with you there.

I second that.

Just for the record: I'm no fan of "political correctness". Actually, I detest "political correctness" since it's censorship, clouds minds and is the nemesis of "free speech" and "democracy".
Refusing "political correctness" doesn't mean impoliteness. It just means you speak your mind. Actually, I think "political correctness" is like Orwell's "newspeak".

Ashley does that. She speaks her mind and doesn't care if she might hit someone. That's quite refreshing. And honest. Yes, Sir, it's honest. "Political correctness" is far less honest that full "free speech". Therefore I won't never ever do "newspeak".

[CroGamer002]

Quite unfortunate that she's not racist, OP.

Well, unfortunate for you.

[Vilio1]

Nashiktal wrote...

Exactly. Aliens as a whole represent foreign nations. Unlike here on earth where your skin color doesn't usually indicate what your nationality or allegience is, as far as ME1 went all aliens are foreign agents belonging to ancient empires that predate humanity by centuries (in the case of the turians, they were a galactic entity for over 1000 years before humanity came to power).

Saying she isn't a fan of aliens is more the equivilent of saying she isn't the fan of a country. So much like how much of the world would say they are not much a fan of America, or Iraq, ashley is displaying displeasure at having nonhuman's on the ship.

Ashley always brings up aliens in general.

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I can't tell the difference between aliens and animals."

I think you can't hand wave all those lines with "trust issues".

"I'm no fan of the hierarchy" would be ok (= not much a fan of america or iraq)
"I am no fan of turians" would be understandable (even if not every turian is a citizen of the Hierarchy).
"I am no fan of aliens" is a horrible line, in my opinion.

Modifié par Vilio1, 21 janvier 2012 - 10:23 .

[Spoiledrotten]

You have me at a disadvantage because i don't have any actual quotes in front of me, however: She admits to being an Earth-centrist, but opposes Terra Firma because they are mainly fueled by bigotry and racism. She says that she hopes that Tali's work with the team against Seren might change people's minds about the quarian species, she feels bad for Liara after Benezia dies and suggests that Shepard should go talk to her, she says that she doesn't believe that humans are superior... And so on...

She antagonizes Liara because she is after her man. She probably feels that cross species relationships are unnatural, but... Well, they are... Granted, to me natural vs. unnatural debate means very little, humans aren't purely natural beings to begin with, but that's completely off topic. I agree that it's unnatural, but I disagree that it matters.

I don't remember the bug eyed monsters comment, but it sounds like a joke to me.

Hanar look like jellyfish, elcor like elephants, turians like dinosaurs... Not the most PC thing to say, but you can obviously see where she's coming from. And she already said that she doesn't think humans are superior, so they just visually look like animals to her, which they objectively do. Also, I think she says that around keepers.

As for the whole "Not the fan of aliens thing", context is very important. She's talking about Shepard being with Cerberus, a human supremacy group. She says that while she doesn't have much love for the aliens, Cerberus is messed up.

To me it sounded like a person who is saying: I'm no tree-huger, but you should probably leave that forest alone.
Am I to assume that that person hates plants because isn't a tree huger?

I believe that whether Ashley is a racist depends on your definition of racism.
To me, a racist is a hateful, venomous person who feels like their race is superior to other races. Ashley never struck me as that kind of a person. She is more of a nationalist to me. A proud human who believes that we shouldn't rely on other races so much because they do not have our best interests at heart, even when they think they do, they'll always choose their own species over ours, it's not racism that they do that, just the nature of things. And so far, she was right.

Modifié par Spoiledrotten, 21 janvier 2012 - 11:21 .

[CptData]

Spoiledrotten is right.

I mean, just as a comparison: how many US-americans consider themselves as patriots? And how many said at least once "I'm not a fan of [French, Germans, Spaniards, Mexicans,...]" ?
Just because they say they're not big fans of said ppl it doesn't mean they can't have French or German friends.

Between "I'm not a fan of" and "I hate this" are at least two worlds or something. ^^

[Clone 071]

Spoiledrotten wrote...

You have me at a disadvantage because i don't have any actual quotes in front of me, however: She admits to being an Earth-centrist, but opposes Terra Firma because they are mainly fueled by bigotry and racism. She says that she hopes that Tali's work with the team against Seren might change people's minds about the quarian species, she feels bad for Liara after Benezia dies and suggests that Shepard should go talk to her, she says that she doesn't believe that humans are superior... And so on...

She antagonizes Liara because she is after her man. She probably feels that cross species relationships are unnatural, but... Well, they are... Granted, to me natural vs. unnatural debate means very little, humans aren't purely natural beings to begin with, but that's completely off topic. I agree that it's unnatural, but I disagree that it matters.

I don't remember the bug eyed monsters comment, but it sounds like a joke to me.

Hanar look like jellyfish, elcor like elephants, turians like dinosaurs... Not the most PC thing to say, but you can obviously see where she's coming from. And she already said that she doesn't think humans are superior, so they just visually look like animals to her, which they objectively do. Also, I think she says that around keepers.

As for the whole "Not the fan of aliens thing", context is very important. She's talking about Shepard being with Cerberus, a human supremacy group. She says that while she doesn't have much love for the aliens, Cerberus is messed up.

To me it sounded like a person who is saying: I'm no tree-huger, but you should probably leave that forest alone.
Am I to assume that that person hates plants because isn't a tree huger?

I believe that whether Ashley is a racist depends on your definition of racism.
To me, a racist is a hateful, venomous person who feels like their race is superior to other races. Ashley never struck me as that kind of a person. She is more of a nationalist to me. A proud human who believes that we shouldn't rely on other races so much because they do not have our best interests at heart, even when they think they do, they'll always choose their own species over ours, it's not racism that they do that, just the nature of things. And so far, she was right.

Amen.

[Xilizhra]

In fact, I think she is right about that last part. Members of their own species will always be more important to them than humanity. Which is why, according to her, humanity needs to be more independent, and again, I'm inclined to agree.

If it's an absolute, this is incorrect. I suspect that my Shepard is more important to Liara than any individual asari, and I know the same is true in reverse with Shepard.

Hanar look like jellyfish, elcor like elephants, turians like dinosaurs... Not the most PC thing to say, but you can obviously see where she's coming from. And she already said that she doesn't think humans are superior, so they just visually look like animals to her, which they objectively do. Also, I think she says that around keepers.

She may say that, but honestly I don't really believe her. Or if she doesn't believe that humans are inherently superior, she still wants them to be superior by circumstance.

As for the whole "Not the fan of aliens thing", context is very important. She's talking about Shepard being with Cerberus, a human supremacy group. She says that while she doesn't have much love for the aliens, Cerberus is messed up.

It's a horrible line regardless of context.

To me it sounded like a person who is saying: I'm no tree-huger, but you should probably leave that forest alone.
Am I to assume that that person hates plants because isn't a tree huger?

That implies that "fan of aliens" is a term with inherently negative connotations, which I personally greatly doubt.

To me, a racist is a hateful, venomous person who feels like their race is superior to other races.

To me, it's just someone who believes that their race holds superior qualities to other races or has any dislikes towards anyone else due to race.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

In fact, I think she is right about that last part. Members of their own species will always be more important to them than humanity. Which is why, according to her, humanity needs to be more independent, and again, I'm inclined to agree.

If it's an absolute, this is incorrect. I suspect that my Shepard is more important to Liara than any individual asari, and I know the same is true in reverse with Shepard.

Like you said, Liara will, most likely, pick Shepard over any individual asari. I'm sure there are other asari in the galaxy who bonded with humans and love them more than random asari. This works on a small scale.
Now, what if Liara had to choose between saving Earth or saving Thessia? What exactly do you figure would happen?
Obviously, Liara would pick Thessia.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In fact, I think she is right about that last part. Members of their own species will always be more important to them than humanity. Which is why, according to her, humanity needs to be more independent, and again, I'm inclined to agree.

If it's an absolute, this is incorrect. I suspect that my Shepard is more important to Liara than any individual asari, and I know the same is true in reverse with Shepard.

Like you said, Liara will, most likely, pick Shepard over any individual asari. I'm sure there are other asari in the galaxy who bonded with humans and love them more than random asari. This works on a small scale.
Now, what if Liara had to choose between saving Earth or saving Thessia? What exactly do you figure would happen?
Obviously, Liara would pick Thessia.

I have faith that Liara, like me, would pick the one that offered better chances to the galaxy as a whole.

[Nashiktal]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In fact, I think she is right about that last part. Members of their own species will always be more important to them than humanity. Which is why, according to her, humanity needs to be more independent, and again, I'm inclined to agree.

If it's an absolute, this is incorrect. I suspect that my Shepard is more important to Liara than any individual asari, and I know the same is true in reverse with Shepard.

Like you said, Liara will, most likely, pick Shepard over any individual asari. I'm sure there are other asari in the galaxy who bonded with humans and love them more than random asari. This works on a small scale.
Now, what if Liara had to choose between saving Earth or saving Thessia? What exactly do you figure would happen?
Obviously, Liara would pick Thessia.

I have faith that Liara, like me, would pick the one that offered better chances to the galaxy as a whole.

Which would probably mean the destruction of thessia, if only because asari can recover from such a blow far faster than most.

[brfritos]

It seems we reach a understanding and agree that Ash is not racist, only prejudice.
So this mean she's OK and a lovable person?

She's professional as a soldier, I have no problem with her because of that and will gladly chose her for my missions, but I wouldn't invite her for my parties or even date her, that's for damn sure.

[Ghost Warrior]

Clone 071 wrote...

Spoiledrotten wrote...

You have me at a disadvantage because i don't have any actual quotes in front of me, however: She admits to being an Earth-centrist, but opposes Terra Firma because they are mainly fueled by bigotry and racism. She says that she hopes that Tali's work with the team against Seren might change people's minds about the quarian species, she feels bad for Liara after Benezia dies and suggests that Shepard should go talk to her, she says that she doesn't believe that humans are superior... And so on...

She antagonizes Liara because she is after her man. She probably feels that cross species relationships are unnatural, but... Well, they are... Granted, to me natural vs. unnatural debate means very little, humans aren't purely natural beings to begin with, but that's completely off topic. I agree that it's unnatural, but I disagree that it matters.

I don't remember the bug eyed monsters comment, but it sounds like a joke to me.

Hanar look like jellyfish, elcor like elephants, turians like dinosaurs... Not the most PC thing to say, but you can obviously see where she's coming from. And she already said that she doesn't think humans are superior, so they just visually look like animals to her, which they objectively do. Also, I think she says that around keepers.

As for the whole "Not the fan of aliens thing", context is very important. She's talking about Shepard being with Cerberus, a human supremacy group. She says that while she doesn't have much love for the aliens, Cerberus is messed up.

To me it sounded like a person who is saying: I'm no tree-huger, but you should probably leave that forest alone.
Am I to assume that that person hates plants because isn't a tree huger?

I believe that whether Ashley is a racist depends on your definition of racism.
To me, a racist is a hateful, venomous person who feels like their race is superior to other races. Ashley never struck me as that kind of a person. She is more of a nationalist to me. A proud human who believes that we shouldn't rely on other races so much because they do not have our best interests at heart, even when they think they do, they'll always choose their own species over ours, it's not racism that they do that, just the nature of things. And so far, she was right.

Amen.

+1

[Spoiledrotten]

If it's an absolute, this is incorrect. I suspect that my Shepard is more important to Liara than any individual asari, and I know the same is true in reverse with Shepard.

I don't think she was talking about any individual aliens or humans, but generally. As MisterJB pointed out, if they had a choice between their homeworld and Earth, they would almost always save their homeworld, it's natural. The worst offenders and the Council members. They are in a position which dictates them to protect and help all of the races in the council space, but they don't do that, not if they believe that their races might be implicated for it.

That is why all races need to be independent to some degree, not just humanity.

She may say that, but honestly I don't really believe her. Or if she doesn't believe that humans are inherently superior, she still wants them to be superior by circumstance.

When has Ash been known to lie? Do you have any reason to believe this, other than the fact that you don't like her?

That implies that "fan of aliens" is a term with inherently negative connotations, which I personally greatly doubt.

Not really... How about... "I'm not a liberal, but this right wing group is really off the rails"...

I'm not a fan of... Any county really, that doesn't mean that I hate them, just that I have no real feelings of love for them.

If I said, "I'm not fan of America, but 9/11 was a terrible thing", would you assume that I hate America?

To me, it's just someone who believes that their race holds superior qualities to other races or has any dislikes towards anyone else due to race.

Good thing Ash isn't that either.

She already says that she doesn't think humans are superior, but that doesn't mean she can't be proud to be human. So far, I've never seen her disliking anyone because of their race either.

She distrust Liara, Wrex, and Garrus, but...

Liara is Beneza's daughter. She claims not to have heard from her in years, which is suspicious to Ash because it's completely foreign to her because of how tight-knit her family is. She does dislike Liara to an extent, but that's because of jealousy, they both have hots for Shepard. Even so, she is worried about her when Benezia dies and she feels sorry for her when Shepard chooses her over Liara.

Wrex is a mercenary who's loyalty depends on the amount of money he receives, and he was working for the Shadow Broker, for all she knows he could be his spy. After all, he is the one with no obvious reason to be there in the first place.

Garrus is with C-sec, a Citadel based organization govern by the Council who has already shown unwillingness to go after Seren. Who's to say that he isn't their agent, trying to cover up his crimes for the Council?

Or maybe she doesn't trust them because they are alien, but she doesn't trust them aboard the Normandy, a state of the art human Alliance vessel, not in general.
And it makes sense, humanity was at war with turians less than thirty years ago. A lot of feelings are still sore, especially after humanity got a place in the Citadel. Who's to say there won't be another war in the future? And all of a sudden, turians know every nook and cranny of our military ships.

I think that the fact she trust a salarian commander to keep her alive speaks a great deal.


I think that the main problem the people have is that they view aliens as different races and nothing more. But that is not the case, aliens are also different countries, with an interest in their own country to succeed.

I'm willing to accept that Ash falls in some wider definition of racism. She certainly isn't blind to species, but I see it more as nationalism rather than racism, and in any case, I don't feel like that takes away from her character, but indeed, adds to it. It makes her more real, natural and complex. She has flaws, just like a real person would.

This is an interesting topic though. I wonder if the reason you see other aliens and think about race first, and I see aliens and think about their government and politics first might have something to do with the society in which we were raised.

Modifié par Spoiledrotten, 22 janvier 2012 - 10:37 .

[Ghost Warrior]

Another great post Spoiledrotten. Of course,I completely agree.

[alex90c]

Spoiledrotten wrote...

I don't remember the bug eyed monsters comment, but it sounds like a joke to me.

It wasn't.

Not sure why you're trying to just hand wave a comment like that.

[Zkyire]

Racism refers to races.

That is races within a species.

Stop calling Ash a racist. She has a distrust of other species, not races within those species.

And even so, racism, or speciesism would imply that one would hold the belief that your own race or species is superior. Ashley has never said that she viewed Humans as superior to other species. She has simply shown an honestly understandable distrust of aliens based on what the Turians did to the Humans not but thirty years before hand. And based on the current political structure of ME1 when she was explaining these things to you, whereby she viewed Humans as being lapdogs of the alien Council.

Ashley has expressed a desire of Humans becoming more independant and powerful, and less reliant on the alien species, so they can't be taken advantage of or kicked out and left to fend for themselves.

Y'know, like the Quarians were. They relied on the Council, and then in their time of need, they were kicked out, and left to fight against the genocide of their species by the Geth on their own.

There's nothing speciesist about wanting the security and prosperity of your own species against a galaxy full of alien species that outumber you and have more political, financial and military strength than yours.

The idealism expressed by some of the posters here is admirable, but idealism wont protect your species. Pragmatism will.

Modifié par Zkyire, 22 janvier 2012 - 02:50 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Ashley's views are normal and healthy.

[Ghost Warrior]

Zkyire wrote...

The idealism expressed by some of the posters here is admirable, but idealism wont protect your species. Pragmatism will.

+10000000

A lot of idealists here,time to get real.

[Vilio1]

Nobody called Ashley a racist because of her dog/bear analogy. Yes, that's a realistic view on the potential dangers that exist in a multi species environment. But calling aliens "buy-eyed monsters" has nothing to do with "pragmatism" or humanity's position in the galaxy.

[Spoiledrotten]

It wasn't.

Not sure why you're trying to just hand wave a comment like that.

I didn't remember it. Kind of hard to write five paragraphs on it, y'know?

Anyway, I dug for it on youtube, which mind you, wasn't easy, and I found it. Maybe I'm not objective enough because I like her but, she sounds sarcastic to me, so yeah, i believe she was. She's been known to use sarcasm, a lot.
Obviously it doesn't mean that she loves the council or aliens, but to me it is just as obvious that she doesn't really consider aliens to be "bug eyed monsters".

When dealing with issues like this, it's kind of hard to figure out what a certain really character means to say. A lot of it is just a feeling. Out of context it sounds terrible, but with a sarcastic tone, jealousy and context, it sounds a lot less shocking.

She isn't the type of person who is very careful about offending and it shows. Personally, I give people a lot of pass when humor is involved. I've made some inappropriate jokes and/or sarcastic comments myself, yet I never actually meant it.

Personally, I find her interaction with Wrex, Garrus, Tali and Kirrahe along with things she says in serious, not bitter conversation to have a lot more weight than jokes and jealous comments.

I have yet to see any hate or superiority on Ash's part, and without it, I don't think that she's a proper racist. Certainly no more than Garrus, who believes that krogans should be extinct and that quarians deserve their fate, and says that to Tali's face. Or Wrex, who outright hates rachni, turians and salarians in general, or Tali, who hates geth with burning passion and admits to having had prejudice against krogan, or Liara who admits to having had prejudice against humans. Ah, but they're aliens, so it's cool when they do it.

Modifié par Spoiledrotten, 23 janvier 2012 - 07:30 .