133 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

D.Kain wrote...

daqs wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

See I love lore, and for me it doesn't matter if it is Under or Overpowered. I for one would love to play an adept that couldn't use biotics anymore after 5-6 powers a mission, and for those powers to work like they do in lore. I just wonder what other people think.  

Five or six might be on the high end. Anyway, I'd think you're loony, and any such thing would immediately cause BSN to explode in rage were it ever implemented (as if the Adept wasn't "weak" - pft - enough in ME2).

Well. The lore Adept with Shepard potential could actually toss/crush an atlas mech ignoring all layers of armor/shields. So wouldn't be too weak. Just very limited.

Maybe. And then that ostensible lore Adept with Shepard potential would be left with her pistol and SMG when the next Atlas wanders around. HOORAY

[Icinix]

I find I get deeper into the game and enjoy it more if lore trumps gameplay.

If gameplay trumps lore, I find (as with most games) I lose interest very quickly and find myself having to force myself to play the game as opposed to it being a more natural process.

To me personally, lore pulls me in, gameplay doesn't.

[D.Kain]

daqs wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

daqs wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

See I love lore, and for me it doesn't matter if it is Under or Overpowered. I for one would love to play an adept that couldn't use biotics anymore after 5-6 powers a mission, and for those powers to work like they do in lore. I just wonder what other people think.  

Five or six might be on the high end. Anyway, I'd think you're loony, and any such thing would immediately cause BSN to explode in rage were it ever implemented (as if the Adept wasn't "weak" - pft - enough in ME2).

Well. The lore Adept with Shepard potential could actually toss/crush an atlas mech ignoring all layers of armor/shields. So wouldn't be too weak. Just very limited.

Maybe. And then that ostensible lore Adept with Shepard potential would be left with her pistol and SMG when the next Atlas wanders around. HOORAY

Well yes. Win somewhere lose somewhere. Clearly you don't want gameplay to reflect lore, and that is what I want to find out opinions on. Thanks for sharing your opinion. 

[Aimi]

D.Kain wrote...

Well yes. Win somewhere lose somewhere. Clearly you don't want gameplay to reflect lore, and that is what I want to find out opinions on. Thanks for sharing your opinion. 

I don't want gameplay to reflect lore if the lore has stupid gameplay consequences. The primacy of lore makes sense if you're reading a book, but not if you're playing a game.

That said, if the lore makes sense in the context of a game, then I'm all for them syncing up.

[D.Kain]

Icinix wrote...

I find I get deeper into the game and enjoy it more if lore trumps gameplay.

If gameplay trumps lore, I find (as with most games) I lose interest very quickly and find myself having to force myself to play the game as opposed to it being a more natural process.

To me personally, lore pulls me in, gameplay doesn't.

Ok, one more for the lore. 

[D.Kain]

daqs wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Well yes. Win somewhere lose somewhere. Clearly you don't want gameplay to reflect lore, and that is what I want to find out opinions on. Thanks for sharing your opinion. 

I don't want gameplay to reflect lore if the lore has stupid gameplay consequences. The primacy of lore makes sense if you're reading a book, but not if you're playing a game.

That said, if the lore makes sense in the context of a game, then I'm all for them syncing up.

So basically you just wouldn't make biotic a playable class then? 

[RoboticWater]

Oh, this thread. Let me get out my favorite sig. Hold on a second.

One of my classics.

But on topic:
They're called games for a reason. I'll give Bioware or any other game developer enough room with lore to improve their gameplay. If Bioware decided to make guns shoot glowing fish, then I'd start to have issues. Burt changing the ammo system from an easily exploitable one to a slightly less believable, working system is completely fine in my book. Story inconsistencies are a complete different story. Unlike gameplay, story doesn't need to change much to cater to anything.

Modifié par BlahDog, 19 janvier 2012 - 03:30 .

[D.Kain]

@BlahDog just a little misunderstanding here. I am asking more about balance. I am sure you could fix the exploitable shooting with say faster overheating instead of thermal clips. What I am asking is does Lore=Gameplay equal Gameplay is awesome for you? THAT is what I am asking. =)

[PauseforEffect]

D.Kain wrote...

daqs wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Well yes. Win somewhere lose somewhere. Clearly you don't want gameplay to reflect lore, and that is what I want to find out opinions on. Thanks for sharing your opinion. 

I don't want gameplay to reflect lore if the lore has stupid gameplay consequences. The primacy of lore makes sense if you're reading a book, but not if you're playing a game.

That said, if the lore makes sense in the context of a game, then I'm all for them syncing up.

So basically you just wouldn't make biotic a playable class then? 

Might still be workable if you define the limits according to strength of biotics. In ME1, biotic strength was varied according to level. One example was biotic lift. Sufficiently strengthened, you could lift a Geth Armature, but how high and how long was dependant on the amp, level and cooldown. Perhaps Jack might be able to retain her status as a biotic powerhouse in exchange for fragility. Seeing as how she wore no armor, all it might take on the enemy's part is a shot and she could go down. So it'd be extremely dependant on keeping direct fire off her while she pummels enemies left and right.
Well, it sounded better in a brainstorm than as an application...

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...

Might still be workable if you define the limits according to strength of biotics. In ME1, biotic strength was varied according to level. One example was biotic lift. Sufficiently strengthened, you could lift a Geth Armature, but how high and how long was dependant on the amp, level and cooldown. Perhaps Jack might be able to retain her status as a biotic powerhouse in exchange for fragility. Seeing as how she wore no armor, all it might take on the enemy's part is a shot and she could go down. So it'd be extremely dependant on keeping direct fire off her while she pummels enemies left and right.
Well, it sounded better in a brainstorm than as an application...

Well biotics can actually defend themselves basically against anything with biotic barriers, the thing would be that they again would get tired fast, and each their defense would cost them their extra attack as well. 

[someguy1231]

For me at least, the most important thing about a game is that it's fun to play. A game could have the best graphics, best story, best characters I've ever seen, but if it's not fun to play, I'm not going to buy it. BlahDog is right. Lore should only be changed to explain changes in gameplay. Consistent lore is well and good, but if developers have to choose between improving gameplay and keeping lore, they should always go with the former.

[What a Succulent Ass]

They would also collapse without a trusty bottle of Paragade.

[D.Kain]

someguy1231 wrote...

For me at least, the most important thing about a game is that it's fun to play. A game could have the best graphics, best story, best characters I've ever seen, but if it's not fun to play, I'm not going to buy it. BlahDog is right. Lore should only be changed to explain changes in gameplay. Consistent lore is well and good, but if developers have to choose between improving gameplay and keeping lore, they should always go with the former.

Ok that's fair. 

I take it for you balance is an undenyable part of  good gameplay?

[didymos1120]

Random Jerkface wrote...

They would also collapse without a trusty bottle of Paragade.

Only losers drink Paragade.

[PauseforEffect]

D.Kain wrote...

Well biotics can actually defend themselves basically against anything with biotic barriers, the thing would be that they again would get tired fast, and each their defense would cost them their extra attack as well. 

Right, the cooldown and wear-off would be applied to biotic teammates. In Jack's cutscene, she demonstrates an amazing ability to use lift and throw right after another and since she is designed for very quick cooldowns in her aggressive offense abilities, the trade-off would be a lack of defense on her part. No shields for her in other words. Other biotic teammates like Jacob could lack biotic cooldown but make up for it in strength and stamina of his barrier. Thane might have better biotic damage than Miranda but longer cooldown compared to her. And Miranda could have her biotics specialized in a different way, such as damage over a length of time instead of instantaneous.
There would still be the armor and tech shields to contend with and personally, I think Shepard comes up against tech more often than enemies with barrier.
I'm probably overthinking this, but it is fun to discuss.

[D.Kain]

PrimalEden wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Well biotics can actually defend themselves basically against anything with biotic barriers, the thing would be that they again would get tired fast, and each their defense would cost them their extra attack as well. 

Right, the cooldown and wear-off would be applied to biotic teammates. In Jack's cutscene, she demonstrates an amazing ability to use lift and throw right after another and since she is designed for very quick cooldowns in her aggressive offense abilities, the trade-off would be a lack of defense on her part. No shields for her in other words. Other biotic teammates like Jacob could lack biotic cooldown but make up for it in strength and stamina of his barrier. Thane might have better biotic damage than Miranda but longer cooldown compared to her. And Miranda could have her biotics specialized in a different way, such as damage over a length of time instead of instantaneous.
There would still be the armor and tech shields to contend with and personally, I think Shepard comes up against tech more often than enemies with barrier.
I'm probably overthinking this, but it is fun to discuss.

But lore biotics would still be limited to the number of powers they could use for each mission. About 5-6, maybe 7-8 powers pushing it, if it is a high level biotic . 

Also if anyone wants to discuss more quickly: http://cbe003.chat.mibbit.com/  Channel is ( #me3 ). 

[Aaleel]

Well gameplay is lower on the list for me in RPGs, story, lore, things like that are at the top.

I don't mind balancing the game though. It's when things start happening that go against the rules laid out by the game lore itself that I get upset. Lay out the rules of the world and stick by them.

[DPSSOC]

Depends on the lore really. In ME I wouldn't mind getting closer to lore in terms of gameplay. Some of it just doesn't make sense, why can't my Sentinel use Pull? It's just Throw going in the other direction. Why does my Adept have to be so good at making a Blackhole before I can Pull someone? Why doesn't that help me with Throw (again same principle, different direction)? How in the name of all things rational, does my Infiltrator learning to cloak better teach him how to light things on fire, and how does that help him learn how to hack AI?

Sorry about that. In closing Lore = Gameplay = fun & sensible, most of the time.

[PauseforEffect]

@D. Kain
Point taken, it'd be a nightmare balancing out teammate abilities. Miranda gets a lot of flak just for being able to start and end her own warp bombs if you play as a Sentinel.

[Aimi]

D.Kain wrote...

So basically you just wouldn't make biotic a playable class then? 

No, I'm fine with the classes as they are now, so long as biotics don't work exactly like they do in lore, because their powers, as described in the Codex, would suck for use in a game.

[Last Vizard]

D.Kain wrote...

For years now bioware is focusing on balance in their games, balance that blantly contradicts lore. Like balancing force users against non-force users in TOR, balancing mages against non-mages in Dragon age, balancing biotics against non-biotics in ME series. If bioware made a "choose your pet" game, they would also balance a dog against a dragon and a parrot against an eagle in their gameplay.

I just wonder how people feel about this. Does it affect your experience of the game, or you simply don't care? What is in your opinion the best way in this situation? Is the current way the best one? How to avoid gameplay/lore conflict, or lore isn't important for you in gameplay? 

Really not a rant, just curious. 

Yeah I hear you mate, lore is very important however some people enjoy playing Warrior/Soldier and other lesser classes and it would upset them if the balance of power was more realistic... people that don't read fantasy or scifi novels don't understand the power of the force or Mages and so on.

An idiot Warrior or Soldier would have no chance in a realistically portrayed battle.

[Random citizen]

DrNick1221 wrote...

I myself perfer lore and gameplay working togeather in harmony in my games. 

+1000

[ItsFreakinJesus]

D.Kain wrote...

MrFob wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Well, I'm still not a fan of Thermal Clips...

Me neither, but what do you do? 

You can mod.

As far as biotics go, they were even more powerful in gameplay in ME1 than the lore suggested. According to the codex, using biotics is extremely exhausting and it cannot be done more than a couple of times before the individual is basically tired enough to fall unconscious on the spot. Yet in ME1, as a high )or even mid)level adept, you could spam powers all day long. ME2 brought a bit of an improvement to that with the global cooldown (which btw I don't like as a gameplay mechanic but that's another point).
So, yeah, in their Star Wars games, they might have that problem, I am not quite familiar enough to comment on the Dragon Age situation but it is quite funny that you'd put this into the ME3 forum because I think if anything, in the ME universe it's the opposite.

See I love lore, and for me it doesn't matter if it is Under or Overpowered. I for one would love to play an adept that couldn't use biotics anymore after 5-6 powers a mission, and for those powers to work like they do in lore. I just wonder what other people think.  

That'd make biotic classes boring and unbalanced in comparison to other classes that would be able to spam tech armor, concussive shot, shield boost, AI hacking, or whatever constantly. 

I'm all for a biotic fatigue in conjunction with the power cooldown, but hard restricting the amount of biotic abilities you can use would ruin the balancing of the class and the entire game.

[Sgt Stryker]

The way I see it, gameplay concessions in an RPG are no different than say, having front-line factories churn out Sherman tanks in 30 seconds in an RTS set during the Second World War. It's a gross misrepresentation of how the war was actually fought, but I'm willing to let it slide if it leads to fun gameplay.