133 réponses à ce sujet

[Kakistos_]

I feel that gameplay and lore are equally important. When it comes to balancing I can accept that some things must be exaggerated to be fair(even if it's single player?) but retcons for the sake of gameplay are not cool. Consistency in any story is important. For example, Thermal Clips. In this case the explanation given them was clearly not well thought out. Was there NO way to change gameplay AND keep lore intact? Of course there was, some members on these very forums have proposed solutions for this very problem that seem more probable than the one officially given. The best solution for gameplay and story segregation is to spend the time to make them work together and not mutilate one or the other. It may not always be easy but considering the potential backlash and the time and money put into the creation of story and lore it is well worth the effort.

[Ramus Quaritch]

In the lore, for example, biotics are very powerful but they are used infrequently. Someone can unleash a massive onslaught of biotic rage, but will then have to spend a lot of time to recover. That's how it is in the books, anyway. The games, particularly ME2, make biotic use more constant and have faster recharge times. I personally don't mind it since I would not like biotics if I had to wait several minutes before I could use them again. So there's always an acceptable amount of discrepancy between the lore and the gameplay. Finding a balance is, in my humble opinion, the best thing for a game developer to do. On the other hand, If the game is not enjoyable from a gameplay standpoint, then my ability to enjoy the lore is hampered, so it's really a double-edged sword.

[Random citizen]

Last Vizard wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

For years now bioware is focusing on balance in their games, balance that blantly contradicts lore. Like balancing force users against non-force users in TOR, balancing mages against non-mages in Dragon age, balancing biotics against non-biotics in ME series. If bioware made a "choose your pet" game, they would also balance a dog against a dragon and a parrot against an eagle in their gameplay.

I just wonder how people feel about this. Does it affect your experience of the game, or you simply don't care? What is in your opinion the best way in this situation? Is the current way the best one? How to avoid gameplay/lore conflict, or lore isn't important for you in gameplay? 

Really not a rant, just curious. 

Yeah I hear you mate, lore is very important however some people enjoy playing Warrior/Soldier and other lesser classes and it would upset them if the balance of power was more realistic... people that don't read fantasy or scifi novels don't understand the power of the force or Mages and so on.

An idiot Warrior or Soldier would have no chance in a realistically portrayed battle.

Why would they get upset? Because some classes are better at doing certain things? Because some enemies are very hard thus requiring tactics and skill from the player? For some perhaps, but the problem goes deeper.

The answer probably no lies in with expectations and traditions of how games should behave. And these traditions at least partially seem to come from table 1)classical games (tabletop, pen and paper rpgs with "balanced" classes because people are not expected or trusted to actually roleplay with other limitations then those given to them), 2)a generation brought up on cheap action thrills and 3) the budget (making deeper game worlds cost more).

[AlanC9]

Random citizen wrote...

 1)classical games (tabletop, pen and paper rpgs with "balanced" classes because people are not expected or trusted to actually roleplay with other limitations then those given to them),

That isn't exactly right. PnP games turned out to need balanced classes because it's hard to get players to voluntarily play a weak class. Nobody wants to be overshadowed.

[Random citizen]

BlahDog wrote...

Oh, this thread. Let me get out my favorite sig. Hold on a second.

One of my classics.

But on topic:
They're called games for a reason. I'll give Bioware or any other game developer enough room with lore to improve their gameplay. If Bioware decided to make guns shoot glowing fish, then I'd start to have issues. Burt changing the ammo system from an easily exploitable one to a slightly less believable, working system is completely fine in my book. Story inconsistencies are a complete different story. Unlike gameplay, story doesn't need to change much to cater to anything.

A Game is not, or should not, generally be defined by a certain type of gameplay. Its all about using bout logic and fun gamedesign. For example, ME1 combat was not sound, not by far. There is nothing realistic about it given the setting.

[Fixers0]

Gameplay should never totally neglect the lore, It also shoulnd't break or create Lore without any explanation, this makes lore pretty much redundant and makes it questionable why it was created in the first place, of course it also makes the Universe and setting look like background details, while in fact they really aren't, as part of the Mass effect experiance for me atleast is not just shooting things and romancing aliens, but also to experiance the established universe and discovering more of it's lore while playing the games.

[Random citizen]

AlanC9 wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

 1)classical games (tabletop, pen and paper rpgs with "balanced" classes because people are not expected or trusted to actually roleplay with other limitations then those given to them),

That isn't exactly right. PnP games turned out to need balanced classes because it's hard to get players to voluntarily play a weak class. Nobody wants to be overshadowed.

Weak class? weak at what? overshadowed at what?

[ParagonForLife]

Nobezy wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Well, I'm still not a fan of Thermal Clips...

I'm still a huge fan of putting Frictionless Materials X on my gun and spraying for days.

I know My Specter Assault Gear was so fun to use I gusse it was too cheap though I could fire the whole campain and never get past 1 bar of heat  still I do miss my specter weapons hope they make a return...

[AlanC9]

Random citizen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

 1)classical games (tabletop, pen and paper rpgs with "balanced" classes because people are not expected or trusted to actually roleplay with other limitations then those given to them),

That isn't exactly right. PnP games turned out to need balanced classes because it's hard to get players to voluntarily play a weak class. Nobody wants to be overshadowed.

Weak class? weak at what? overshadowed at what?

Depends on the system, or maybe the campaign. For ME, or Dragon Age, or D&D, that would be combat.

I've seen other games where the combat characters are overshadowed. For instance, in a sci-fi game where combat is fairly deadly, enough so that you don't want to engage in it if you can help it, the combat monsters are going to be overshadowed by the scientists, diplomats, and so forth.

[AlanC9]

Random citizen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

 1)classical games (tabletop, pen and paper rpgs with "balanced" classes because people are not expected or trusted to actually roleplay with other limitations then those given to them),

That isn't exactly right. PnP games turned out to need balanced classes because it's hard to get players to voluntarily play a weak class. Nobody wants to be overshadowed.

Weak class? weak at what? overshadowed at what?

Depends on the system, and to a lesser extent on the campaign. In D&D, or ME, it's combat.

[Last Vizard]

Random citizen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

 1)classical games (tabletop, pen and paper rpgs with "balanced" classes because people are not expected or trusted to actually roleplay with other limitations then those given to them),

That isn't exactly right. PnP games turned out to need balanced classes because it's hard to get players to voluntarily play a weak class. Nobody wants to be overshadowed.

Weak class? weak at what? overshadowed at what?

If you read good fantasy novels like the ones Raymond E. Feist writes then you'd know that mages are living gods.  Pug, Macros the black, Tomas, miranda and any other powerful mage can destroy entire nations.... as to Biotics in lore, yes they can only use their powers so many times before they passout or die however when they do use those abilities... everyone enemy is dead because protections stoping biotics are a gameplay mechanic too.

Modifié par Last Vizard, 19 janvier 2012 - 06:49 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Nobezy wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Well, I'm still not a fan of Thermal Clips...

I'm still a huge fan of putting Frictionless Materials X on my gun and spraying for days.

Makes you wonder - from a lore perspective - why the Alliance (and Geth for that matter) just put Frictionless Materials X onto all of their guns - instant infinite ammo and a gun that will never, ever, overheat...(actually, might have needed 2 lots of it for that)

[Aimi]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Makes you wonder - from a lore perspective - why the Alliance (and Geth for that matter) just put Frictionless Materials X onto all of their guns - instant infinite ammo and a gun that will never, ever, overheat...(actually, might have needed 2 lots of it for that)

Frictionless Materials X violates ME1's lore just as much as thermal clips do.

[Boiny Bunny]

Last Vizard wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

 1)classical games (tabletop, pen and paper rpgs with "balanced" classes because people are not expected or trusted to actually roleplay with other limitations then those given to them),

That isn't exactly right. PnP games turned out to need balanced classes because it's hard to get players to voluntarily play a weak class. Nobody wants to be overshadowed.

Weak class? weak at what? overshadowed at what?

If you read good fantasy novels like the ones Raymond E. Feist writes then you'd know that mages are living gods.  Pug, Macros the black, Tomas, miranda and any other powerful mage can destroy entire nations.... as to Biotics in lore, yes they can only use their powers so many times before they passout or die however when they do use those abilities... everyone enemy is dead because protections stoping biotics are a gameplay mechanic too.

Err - mages being 'living gods' in one particular series of novels doesn't mean that they are in all series.  Take Dragon Age mages for example - in both lore and gameplay, a well trained templar can easily take down a powerful mage.

Baldur's Gate draws a different line - a mage that knows what enemies are coming, can memorise the right spells, then take 40 seconds to cast a bunch of prepatory spells will be exceptionally hard to take down - while an unprepared mage could easily be killed in a single blow by a strong melee character.

[Boiny Bunny]

daqs wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Makes you wonder - from a lore perspective - why the Alliance (and Geth for that matter) just put Frictionless Materials X onto all of their guns - instant infinite ammo and a gun that will never, ever, overheat...(actually, might have needed 2 lots of it for that)

Frictionless Materials X violates ME1's lore just as much as thermal clips do.

It does?  How so?  (I can't remember the description of how Frictionless Materials work in game)

[AlanC9]

Boiny Bunny wrote...


Makes you wonder - from a lore perspective - why the Alliance (and Geth for that matter) just put Frictionless Materials X onto all of their guns - instant infinite ammo and a gun that will never, ever, overheat...(actually, might have needed 2 lots of it for that)

I guess they couldn't get an appropriation for it. Maybe the whole Alliance works the way the Normandy does, and crews have to work odd jobs to buy their own weapon mods.

[ParagonForLife]

daqs wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Makes you wonder - from a lore perspective - why the Alliance (and Geth for that matter) just put Frictionless Materials X onto all of their guns - instant infinite ammo and a gun that will never, ever, overheat...(actually, might have needed 2 lots of it for that)

Frictionless Materials X violates ME1's lore just as much as thermal clips do.

Frictionless materials dont violate any lore a mass effect feild doesnt generate heat...so without friction theres no way for the gun to overheat 

[didymos1120]

Here's the thing I always wonder: why nobody seems to notice that they never explained how the guns cool down in ME1, and do it so quickly. Even if you're in a vacuum and there's no convenient atmosphere to dump heat into. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you actually think about it.

[didymos1120]

ParagonForLife wrote...

Frictionless materials dont violate any lore a mass effect feild doesnt generate heat...so without friction theres no way for the gun to overheat 

Everything generates heat, including creating mass effect fields, because it involves energy conversion.  That's how the universe works.  And if the mass accelerators didn't generate heat in the first place, then why would frictionless materials even exist?

Modifié par didymos1120, 19 janvier 2012 - 07:07 .

[Last Vizard]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Random citizen wrote...

 1)classical games (tabletop, pen and paper rpgs with "balanced" classes because people are not expected or trusted to actually roleplay with other limitations then those given to them),

That isn't exactly right. PnP games turned out to need balanced classes because it's hard to get players to voluntarily play a weak class. Nobody wants to be overshadowed.

Weak class? weak at what? overshadowed at what?

If you read good fantasy novels like the ones Raymond E. Feist writes then you'd know that mages are living gods.  Pug, Macros the black, Tomas, miranda and any other powerful mage can destroy entire nations.... as to Biotics in lore, yes they can only use their powers so many times before they passout or die however when they do use those abilities... everyone enemy is dead because protections stoping biotics are a gameplay mechanic too.

Err - mages being 'living gods' in one particular series of novels doesn't mean that they are in all series.  Take Dragon Age mages for example - in both lore and gameplay, a well trained templar can easily take down a powerful mage.

Baldur's Gate draws a different line - a mage that knows what enemies are coming, can memorise the right spells, then take 40 seconds to cast a bunch of prepatory spells will be exceptionally hard to take down - while an unprepared mage could easily be killed in a single blow by a strong melee character.

Well in DA:O I was a Battle Mage with death syphon and some other cool abilities/specs that made me almost unstopable, also had wynn to heal/revive myself so yeah Mages are gods lol (the grey warden mage at wardens peak shows that mages can live for 300 plus years even with the taint)

Anyway, I'm a lore guy mostly however it doesn't annoy me too much when they balance things so warriors/soldiers aren't useless

[ParagonForLife]

didymos1120 wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

Frictionless materials dont violate any lore a mass effect feild doesnt generate heat...so without friction theres no way for the gun to overheat 

Everything generates heat, including creating mass effect fields, because it involves energy conversion.  That's how the universe works.  And if the mass accelerators didn't generate heat in the first place, then why would frictionless materials even exist?

because the projectile generates heat  and because a Mass Accelerator works by Electormagnetics so all it has to do is change the charge of the projectile and the whole procces is assisted by element zero to lower the objects mass so the heat if any whould be too low for the gun to overheat

Modifié par ParagonForLife, 19 janvier 2012 - 07:16 .

[Aimi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Here's the thing I always wonder: why nobody seems to notice that they never explained how the guns cool down in ME1, and do it so quickly. Even if you're in a vacuum and there's no convenient atmosphere to dump heat into. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you actually think about it.

Ha, I actually just ran into that after starting up ME1 to look through the codex to prove myself right in this thread. 

I guess a lot of people rationalized it with mass effect field jiggery-pokery?

[daftPirate]

crimzontearz wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
simple...create lore and game play simultaneously to prevent stupid contradictions
and for the love of god no retcon to try to improve things after the fact

oh and tell the novelists to get it right the first time

But clearly not everything is equal right? I mean you can't make a world where nobody is stronger. 

nope....the world is not fair....yes Biotics should own soldiers just like in a straight up fight a werewolf should just mow through a regular human being in the NWoD game...and lo and behold....it usually happens just that way

Of the comparisons mentioned by the OP, I actually think Biotics vs Non-biotics is the least applicable, its not the same as the God-like power of the Force that could and would clearly be more than match for multiple force users. I'm not saying Biotics aren't powerful, but they have severe limits to compensate for their power. In a pitched fight on the battlefield between a biotic and a soldier(a good, lore soldier, such as an N7 like Shepard), I wouldn't put my money on either one, I'd say chances were even. I'd think differently if an Engineer were involved, though, because, well, the name says it all.

[Fozee]

The guns are little mass relays that project a tiny race of sentient beings' spaceships at high speeds into our enemies' heads.

It's a sad situation really.

[tetrisblock4x1]

You know what, I've just come from reading topics about Mass Effect been all about the immersion. Was in that big thread with a topic heading approving of action mode.

And it's quite hilarious how the general sentiment of immersion > action TOTALLY contradicts the general sentiment of game play > lore. I have not kept a list of who is asking for what, nor do I plan to so I can't say with certainty if the average BSN person is a massive hypocrite, but I can see that it is the case for some regular members.