596 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You didn't need Ashley, Kaidan, or Garrus for ME1. Hell, you can go through ME1 without even recruiting Garrus. Tali was the person who gave you intel on Saren, and Liara of course basically carried the plot afterwards. I don't remember Wrex's stake in it.

Kaiden and Ashley were part of the organization you were in or helping like Jacob and Miranda, you had to take them.  You got Wrex while you were looking for FIst or Harkin don't remember which, but that led you to Tali.  Garrus was investigating Saren, but was cut off and wanted to come to take down/expose Saren.  Liara was a prothean expert and Benezia's daughter.  You never once left the main storyline in acquiring any of them so the story just kept going.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have tried it, but making all the missions aside from Mordin's recruitment mission separate from the main story just made the main storyline get lost. 

Edit: And even Ashley, you got her as a survivor on Eden Prime and she joined the crew.

Modifié par Aaleel, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:00 .

[MrFob]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You didn't need Ashley, Kaidan, or Garrus for ME1. Hell, you can go through ME1 without even recruiting Garrus. Tali was the person who gave you intel on Saren, and Liara of course basically carried the plot afterwards. I don't remember Wrex's stake in it.

True, but it makes sense to get them in terms of the story. Garrus and Wrex happen to join you as you search for evidence, you are on YOUR mission and they come along rather then their recruitment being your mission in the first place. That puts more emphasis on the main plot, that is what we need for ME3 as well IMO and that is why I hope squad recruitment is going to happen similar to ME1 rather then ME2.


EDIT: huh, ninjaaaaad

Modifié par MrFob, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:55 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Aaleel wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You didn't need Ashley, Kaidan, or Garrus for ME1. Hell, you can go through ME1 without even recruiting Garrus. Tali was the person who gave you intel on Saren, and Liara of course basically carried the plot afterwards. I don't remember Wrex's stake in it.

Kaiden and Ashley were part of the organization you were in or helping like Jacob and Miranda, you had to take them.  You got Wrex while you were looking for FIst or Harkin don't remember which, but that led you to Tali.  Garrus was investigating Saren, but was cut off and wanted to come to take down/expose Saren.  Liara was a prothean expert and Benezia's daughter.  You never once left the main storyline in acquiring any of them so the story just kept going.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have tried it, but making all the missions aside from Mordin's recruitment mission separate from the main story just made the main storyline get lost. 

1. Way to completely miss the point.

2. Garrus was investigating Saren, but he didn't offer anything. Like I said, you can avoid him entirely and still complete the game, and pick him up in ME2.

3. The only reason Ashley joins the squad is because she lost her unit and was absorbed into the crew. Kaidan was already a crew member. Neither of them are pivotl to the story. The nuke on Virmire could have been done by literally anyone else.

[Il Divo]

MrFob wrote...

The approach was not bad and I certainly give credit to the BW team for trying something new. Also the recruitment and loyalty missions were extremely well done and the dialogue in them was one of the best examples of clever writing I have ever seen in video games (with the inevitable few exceptions).
However, the main plot suffered for it IMO. The collector story was not very engaging IMO, broke with too many conundrums set in ME1 and even as a singular story it was (necessarily) too stretched out between the crew missions.
Now, as I said before, you CAN do that in the second part of the trilogy where you have a bit of room but I don't see how such a structure can work in a (hopefully) climactic conclusion of the trilogy.

This.

[Chun Hei]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You didn't need Ashley, Kaidan, or Garrus for ME1. Hell, you can go through ME1 without even recruiting Garrus. Tali was the person who gave you intel on Saren, and Liara of course basically carried the plot afterwards. I don't remember Wrex's stake in it.

Ashley and Kaidan are members of the Normandy's crew and it would stretch credulity to have the Alliance provide no specialists of their own to the first human Specter's team. On Garrus and Tali your observations I agree with. Liara was important to carry the plot forward eventually but you could always save her till the last mission before Virmire like I do. I like Kaidan but even he hit on my Shepard a little too overtly and Ms. Mousy Calimari is just too much.

[MrFob]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

*quote snip"

1. Way to completely miss the point.

2. Garrus was investigating Saren, but he didn't offer anything. Like I said, you can avoid him entirely and still complete the game, and pick him up in ME2.

3. The only reason Ashley joins the squad is because she lost her unit and was absorbed into the crew. Kaidan was already a crew member. Neither of them are pivotl to the story. The nuke on Virmire could have been done by literally anyone else.

You miss the point.
The point is that in ME1, the squad recruitment was integrated into the main story.
In ME2, the squad recruitment was its own story, independent of the larger issue at hand (which would be the collectors).
That weakened/distracted from the main plot in ME2 and that should be avoided in ME3.

[Praetor Knight]

Well, I think we could be taking the Collectors for granted to a point, and how little is/was known about them at the beginning of ME2.

I mean, Shepard and TIM did not have a means to pass through the Omega 4 Relay, until learning of the IFF on the Collector Ship. Horizon showed how formidable they can be, so it was stressed to get a large team for the eventual assault into the unknown, if memory serves.

I guess TIM and Shepard were following too closely that one Scout motto of "Be Prepared" and then the end of the Suicide Mission against that big boss was not well received by many to say the least.

[Aaleel]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You didn't need Ashley, Kaidan, or Garrus for ME1. Hell, you can go through ME1 without even recruiting Garrus. Tali was the person who gave you intel on Saren, and Liara of course basically carried the plot afterwards. I don't remember Wrex's stake in it.

Kaiden and Ashley were part of the organization you were in or helping like Jacob and Miranda, you had to take them.  You got Wrex while you were looking for FIst or Harkin don't remember which, but that led you to Tali.  Garrus was investigating Saren, but was cut off and wanted to come to take down/expose Saren.  Liara was a prothean expert and Benezia's daughter.  You never once left the main storyline in acquiring any of them so the story just kept going.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have tried it, but making all the missions aside from Mordin's recruitment mission separate from the main story just made the main storyline get lost. 

1. Way to completely miss the point.

2. Garrus was investigating Saren, but he didn't offer anything. Like I said, you can avoid him entirely and still complete the game, and pick him up in ME2.

3. The only reason Ashley joins the squad is because she lost her unit and was absorbed into the crew. Kaidan was already a crew member. Neither of them are pivotl to the story. The nuke on Virmire could have been done by literally anyone else.

Well I can say it to, way to completely miss the point.  It doesn't matter how pivotal they were to the story, you got them in the process if proceeding through the main story line.  The game was one constant story that never stopped.  ME2 getting the members had nothing to do with reapers/collectors you were just fetching people on a list the IM gave you, so the collectors and their story got lost.  And since they were the main storyline, the main storyline was lost.  That's my point.

Edit: Ack, now I ninja'd

Modifié par Aaleel, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:06 .

[Praetor Knight]

So, I guess many simply ignore ME1's assignments?

[AgitatedLemon]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So, I guess many simply ignore ME1's assignments?

A lot of them were boring and just plain awful. The rogue VI was fun though.

[The Spamming Troll]

id rather have 6 wrexs.

[Chun Hei]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So, I guess many simply ignore ME1's assignments?

ME1's missions were based on Saren and his operation. ME2's missions were Dr. Phil in space with machine guns, rocket launchers, biotics and tech powers. I am not saying the M2 loyalty missions were not enjoyable (most were) but they were not focused on the Collectors yet still could potentially ruin your final mission. In the first game Shepard could ignore any "loyalty missions" or idependent ventures without it adversly affecting her/his hunt for Saren.

[AgitatedLemon]

Aaleel wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You didn't need Ashley, Kaidan, or Garrus for ME1. Hell, you can go through ME1 without even recruiting Garrus. Tali was the person who gave you intel on Saren, and Liara of course basically carried the plot afterwards. I don't remember Wrex's stake in it.

Kaiden and Ashley were part of the organization you were in or helping like Jacob and Miranda, you had to take them.  You got Wrex while you were looking for FIst or Harkin don't remember which, but that led you to Tali.  Garrus was investigating Saren, but was cut off and wanted to come to take down/expose Saren.  Liara was a prothean expert and Benezia's daughter.  You never once left the main storyline in acquiring any of them so the story just kept going.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have tried it, but making all the missions aside from Mordin's recruitment mission separate from the main story just made the main storyline get lost. 

1. Way to completely miss the point.

2. Garrus was investigating Saren, but he didn't offer anything. Like I said, you can avoid him entirely and still complete the game, and pick him up in ME2.

3. The only reason Ashley joins the squad is because she lost her unit and was absorbed into the crew. Kaidan was already a crew member. Neither of them are pivotl to the story. The nuke on Virmire could have been done by literally anyone else.

Well I can say it to, way to completely miss the point.  It doesn't matter how pivotal they were to the story, you got them in the process if proceeding through the main story line.  The game was one constant story that never stopped.  ME2 getting the members had nothing to do with reapers/collectors you were just fetching people on a list the IM gave you, so the collectors and their story got lost.  And since they were the main storyline, the main storyline was lost.  That's my point.

Edit: Ack, now I ninja'd

The entire purpose of the ME2 squad was that you're recruiting a handful of specialists for manpower, they're the best of the best in their respective fields of operation.

They're not all supposed to have deep personal connections to the Collectors.

Ashley and Kaidan serve little purpose aside from being forced on the player. Garrus is optional, and I already said I don't know if you can avoid Wrex or not. That leaves Tali and Liara. So, Tali and Liara are mandatory, and Ashley and Kidan are mandatory, that's 4 squadmates. Out of those 4, only 2 of them are relevant in some form to the plot. Out of those 2, only 1 is relevant to anything else. Liara.

Out of the ME2 squad, they have more members that are relevant to multiple other galactic affairs. Mordin for example with the genophage. Miranda and Cerberus. Legion and the non-heretic geth. Zaeed and the Blue Suns. Kasumi and the greybox, etc.

I was never arguing that the ME2 squad was relevant, for the most part they aren't, I was saying that they're members have a larger impact as a whole, as opposed to the ME1 cast (Except Liara).

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:31 .

[Bobrzy]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So, I guess many simply ignore ME1's assignments?

A lot of them were boring and just plain awful. The rogue VI was fun though.

Completely agree. The only assignments i always did were squad ones - Garrus' Tali's and Wrex's. Others were not as important or just simply boring (or both).

[AgitatedLemon]

Chun Hei wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So, I guess many simply ignore ME1's assignments?

ME1's missions were based on Saren and his operation. ME2's missions were Dr. Phil in space with machine guns, rocket launchers, biotics and tech powers. I am not saying the M2 loyalty missions were not enjoyable (most were) but they were not focused on the Collectors yet still could potentially ruin your final mission. In the first game Shepard could ignore any "loyalty missions" or idependent ventures without it adversly affecting her/his hunt for Saren.

Assignments. The 5 minute side missions you picked up from reading mail and scanning planets.

[Silver77nz]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The only reason Ashley joins the squad is because she lost her unit and was absorbed into the crew. Kaidan was already a crew member. Neither of them are pivotl to the story. The nuke on Virmire could have been done by literally anyone else.

Not according to BW writers or they wouldn't have them play a pivitol part in ME3 and they wouldn't of had plot armor in ME2.

[AgitatedLemon]

Silverpearl1977 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The only reason Ashley joins the squad is because she lost her unit and was absorbed into the crew. Kaidan was already a crew member. Neither of them are pivotl to the story. The nuke on Virmire could have been done by literally anyone else.

Not according to BW writers or they wouldn't have them play a pivitol part in ME3 and they wouldn't of had plot armor in ME2.

You're aware that I'm talking about ME1, right? Or are you also missing the point? Also, bringing up ME3 is meaningless, considering BioWare hadn't even begun to start pre-production by the time ME1 had come out.

[Aimi]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Garrus is optional, and I already said I don't know if you can avoid Wrex or not.

You can.

[Aaleel]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The entire purpose of the ME2 squad was that you're recruiting a handful of specialists for manpower, they're the best of the best in their respective fields of operation.

They're not all supposed to have deep personal connections to the Collectors.

Ashley and Kaidan serve little purpose aside from being forced on the player. Garrus is optional, and I already said I don't know if you can avoid Wrex or not. That leaves Tali and Liara. So, Tali and Liara are mandatory, and Ashley and Kidan are mandatory, that's 4 squadmates. Out of those 4, w of them are relevant in some form to the plot. Out of those 2, only 1 is relevant to anything else. Liara.

Out of the ME2 squad, they have more members that are relevant to multiple other galactic affairs. Mordin for example with the genophage. Miranda and Cerberus. Legion and the non-heretic geth. Zaeed and the Blue Suns. Kasumi and the greybox, etc.

I was never arguing that the ME2 squad was relevant, for the most part they aren't, I was saying that they're members have a larger impact as a whole, as opposed to the ME1 cast (Except Liara).

How?  Mordin developed a countermeasure for the seeker swarms. Other than that, the rest were just important because you were told they were, but what did they really bring.  During the suicide mission several of your squad members were unqualified to do any of the tasks you had to pick people for. 

Modifié par Aaleel, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:35 .

[Praetor Knight]

Chun Hei wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So, I guess many simply ignore ME1's assignments?

ME1's missions were based on Saren and his operation. ME2's missions were Dr. Phil in space with machine guns, rocket launchers, biotics and tech powers. I am not saying the M2 loyalty missions were not enjoyable (most were) but they were not focused on the Collectors yet still could potentially ruin your final mission. In the first game Shepard could ignore any "loyalty missions" or idependent ventures without it adversly affecting her/his hunt for Saren.

Well, I can think of LM's that can have significant reprecussions in ME3 and beyond. Mordin, Grunt, Tali, Legion, Kasumi and maybe Zaeed and Samara's depending on paths taken have story elements that I'm lookin forward to.

So Thane, Garrus, Miranda, Jacob and Jacks' were the most Dr. Phil-ish I guess.

And I felt that those missions both RMs' and LM's we supposed to strengthen the team to face against an unknown enemy a la "Dirty Dozen."

And only Tali's ME1 request seemed helpful, especially after speaking with her on Freedom's Progress, since Wrex can be talked out of fighting with a high enough score if I remember correctly and Garrus' one was more just wrapping up a loose end for him, kinda like Sidonis it seems, now that I think about it.

[Il Divo]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So, I guess many simply ignore ME1's assignments?

I tend to avoid them. I do the same with the ME2 assignments. In general, I thought the ME series could do with much better side quests.

[AgitatedLemon]

Aaleel wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The entire purpose of the ME2 squad was that you're recruiting a handful of specialists for manpower, they're the best of the best in their respective fields of operation.

They're not all supposed to have deep personal connections to the Collectors.

Ashley and Kaidan serve little purpose aside from being forced on the player. Garrus is optional, and I already said I don't know if you can avoid Wrex or not. That leaves Tali and Liara. So, Tali and Liara are mandatory, and Ashley and Kidan are mandatory, that's 4 squadmates. Out of those 4, w of them are relevant in some form to the plot. Out of those 2, only 1 is relevant to anything else. Liara.

Out of the ME2 squad, they have more members that are relevant to multiple other galactic affairs. Mordin for example with the genophage. Miranda and Cerberus. Legion and the non-heretic geth. Zaeed and the Blue Suns. Kasumi and the greybox, etc.

I was never arguing that the ME2 squad was relevant, for the most part they aren't, I was saying that they're members have a larger impact as a whole, as opposed to the ME1 cast (Except Liara).

How?  Mordin developed a countermeasure for the seeker swarms. Other than that, the rest were just important because you were told they were, but what did they really bring.  During the suicide mission several of your squad members were unqualified to do any of the tasks you had to pick people for. 

How what? What are you asking me?

Did I not say that the rest of the recruitment was to build up manpower? Shepard and co. had no idea how powerful the Collectors were, they weren't going to bring Joe, Steve, Tom, and Moe. They were going to bring the best of the best of the best. Grunt is arguably the most dangerous krogan alive. Thane is one of the most highly skilled assassins in the galaxy, Samara and Jack are 2 of the most powerful biotics, Zaeed was the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy, Kaumi the craftiest thief, etc.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:39 .

[Silver77nz]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Silverpearl1977 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The only reason Ashley joins the squad is because she lost her unit and was absorbed into the crew. Kaidan was already a crew member. Neither of them are pivotl to the story. The nuke on Virmire could have been done by literally anyone else.

Not according to BW writers or they wouldn't have them play a pivitol part in ME3 and they wouldn't of had plot armor in ME2.

You're aware that I'm talking about ME1, right? Or are you also missing the point? Also, bringing up ME3 is meaningless, considering BioWare hadn't even begun to start pre-production by the time ME1 had come out.

I know your talking about ME1. Writers know what direction they are going with from the beginning of a story. They knew they wanted the VS in ME2 so they can lay ground work for ME3. If the writers didn't have a purpose for the VS they wouldn't of even wrote them into ME2 or given them plot armor. They needed them for ME3. The writers knew from the very first game that they wanted the VS. They wanted that emotional impact on making a decision to kill one of them on Virmire. They wanted that emotional outburst on Horizion to create drama so when ME3 rolls around you will have drama and tension with the VS. So yes they are pivitol.

[Chun Hei]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

So, I guess many simply ignore ME1's assignments?

ME1's missions were based on Saren and his operation. ME2's missions were Dr. Phil in space with machine guns, rocket launchers, biotics and tech powers. I am not saying the M2 loyalty missions were not enjoyable (most were) but they were not focused on the Collectors yet still could potentially ruin your final mission. In the first game Shepard could ignore any "loyalty missions" or idependent ventures without it adversly affecting her/his hunt for Saren.

Assignments. The 5 minute side missions you picked up from reading mail and scanning planets.

Oh I know. And I was not and am not trying to be snarky. I probably should have put my last line first somehow to show that I did not miss that. All I was saying is that the major (and better) missions in ME2 were not "really" about chasing the Collectors unlike the major missions in ME1 which were about Saren. "Assignments" which I called "independent ventures" are a part of both games.