596 réponses à ce sujet

[AgitatedLemon]

LightningSamus wrote...

What? No Grunt?

No krogan, in general.

[OMTING52601]

CptData wrote...

Wouldn't count on that.

Lets put it this way (just a theory):

ME2 was basically about gathering a team big & specialized enough to go through the O4 Relay and kick the Collectors right into ... whereever it hurts most. ALL of them could die, including Shepard. Only Joker is guaranteed to survive that job.

*snip*

In short: BW never intended to bring back the full ME2 cast in ME3 at any given time while developing ME3.

This should have been obvious, in my opinion. The way the ship was set up, the interactions, the fact that some of the characters couldn't even be recruited until the very last bit of the game. I liked most of the squad mates in ME 2, but I didn't feel super vested in them from a player perspective, and so I'd have been content with some epilogus content regarding how they made out, hell even with temp squad cameo things, in ME 3. Ex: Jacob went on to do some independant bodyguard work or whatever(figure that's a logical next step, he's an honorable guy but he won't want to be involved with Cerberus after ME 2 and he already burned his bridges with the alliance). Maybe we run into him on Omega or something, he helps us recruit some group for the War, we leave him alive or whatever. Nice cameo, resolution of character arc, doesn't take away from the main plot. 

But I guess that's where the problem starts. Making Jacob a romanceable character then changes what is needed to satisfyingly conclude that story arc, not just from a player perspective, but from a 'writing a proper story' perspective as well. Really, I'd have preferred it if Bioware had avoided creating detailed backstory and/or romances for characters that weren't going to be integral to the overall plot of ME 3. It seems like they set themselves up to get a crap ton of hate mail and 'net floggings for their 'failure' to 'properly' conclude those sub-plot arcs.

A smaller, more cohesive squad makes sense to me. Shep is in the final run up to the final, mega-battle for survival of all organic species. There isn't time to trek the known universe recruiting individuals. Hell, IMO, there's barely time to do that while trying to recruit entire civilizations for the War - but it makes sense that it must be done. In which case, from a story perspective, I think the introduction of *new* LI is a bit weird, mostly because while it's apropos to human psychology to want to reaffirm life in the face of death and having personal motivation makes one fight harder, longer, smarter to survive - finding true love at the climax of the story(from out of the blue) is a bit farfetched. Finding someone to shag is more likely. Delving more deeply into established romances, however, does make sense, which loops me back to my earlier point about LI in this game and the potential 'failure' of the writers to fully realize and satisfy those individual story arcs.

In short, smaller squad featuring characters who've played a role through both previous episodes(Liara, Tali, and Garrus - VS showing up for a cameo doesn't, IMO, make them integral) will enable satisfying conclusions to both major and minor story arcs for those well-detailed characters. Adding the VS is understandable, as well. It's the lack of LI from ME 2 as permenant squad mates that, IMO, makes the squad makeup lacking. I like the smaller squad, but I'd like a couple of the more prominent characters from 2, LI or not, were available as well. It would still keep the squad small, but better integrated both prior installment, IMO.

[Bobrzy]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I'm still disappointed at the lack of proper roleplaying - why shouldn't I be? - but that has little to do with this completely seperate complaint.

You should not be surprised, ME games have never been good at role-playing.

I am not surprised. I am, however, still disappointed.

Lack of role-playing? Well it feels like RPG to me - good-to-great storyline, interesting characters, decisions you can make (that most of the times did not feel exactly impactful, true), "feeling" of Shepard being you, at least in my case... That's RPG in my book. thousands of items and stats = / = RPG.

But back to the squad discussion: I hope for some change in armor department of your teammates. I extremely dislike the idea of being able to switch armor looks of every person on your squad, like in ME1 for example. I'm more up for keeping the canonical outfits of characters, but also giving player an option to buy some additional stuff for them (similar to Shepard's stuff in ME2), or even something similar to DA2.

[Ice Cold J]

Shub-Niggurath64 wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

I'm torn.

I think maybe 12 was too much, although it was a cool concept.

But, now I feel like 6-7 isn't enough after meeting so many cool character through the two games.

MY suggestion?

Give us 6-8 slots that we can fill with ANY squadmates who have survived to this point and let the game play out from there. No need for new characters and I'm pretty sure multiple characters can fill different roles in the same storytelling set-pieces. I.e. Liara would know things as the Shadow Broker that Kasumi could've chanced upon while working as a thief, Miranda could've found through old Cerebus connections, or Garrus got through an old C-Sec contanct.

In what way would restricting you to only have a few of them on your ship at a time make it any less work to write full dialogue and create and balance powers for all 17 of them?

Also, if they did this, you could kiss squad banter goodbye.

Well,

1. It probably wouldn't, but it's what I wish we had the option to do.

and

2. Why? If what you said above was correct, why would they just cut out squad banter altogether?

[MordinKrios]

Yes, for me the squad isn't as great as I hoped and it is the opposite to what I would have chose, but heh, if every squaddie is given Lotsb style side quests, I can't complain.

But, If the ME cameo style continues, of course I am going to be annoyed.

Will it ruin the game? Of course not but it will not make it as good as it could have been. For me. For others, it will enhance their experience but I have never liked Liara, Tali, Ashley and the spoiler is pathetic and I am not liking the style of Vega, too Jersey Shore big biceps but small brain cells. Oh well.

[silentoption]

Honestly the limited character in ME3 should be base on the players choice instead of sticking to such a limited cast. I know a bunch of us want Thane, Grunt, Jack. Mordon even Miranda. I do think the ME2 are a lot more interesting. The only ME1 characters are Garrus and Liandra.

What I meant that can pick who we choose as our 4  to six permanent squad mate is that. You get the entire  list and can only 4 to 6 and that what your stuck with.

Modifié par silentoption, 20 janvier 2012 - 09:53 .

[saracen16]

OMTING52601 wrote...

CptData wrote...

Wouldn't count on that.

Lets put it this way (just a theory):

ME2 was basically about gathering a team big & specialized enough to go through the O4 Relay and kick the Collectors right into ... whereever it hurts most. ALL of them could die, including Shepard. Only Joker is guaranteed to survive that job.

*snip*

In short: BW never intended to bring back the full ME2 cast in ME3 at any given time while developing ME3.

This should have been obvious, in my opinion. The way the ship was set up, the interactions, the fact that some of the characters couldn't even be recruited until the very last bit of the game. I liked most of the squad mates in ME 2, but I didn't feel super vested in them from a player perspective, and so I'd have been content with some epilogus content regarding how they made out, hell even with temp squad cameo things, in ME 3. Ex: Jacob went on to do some independant bodyguard work or whatever(figure that's a logical next step, he's an honorable guy but he won't want to be involved with Cerberus after ME 2 and he already burned his bridges with the alliance). Maybe we run into him on Omega or something, he helps us recruit some group for the War, we leave him alive or whatever. Nice cameo, resolution of character arc, doesn't take away from the main plot. 

But I guess that's where the problem starts. Making Jacob a romanceable character then changes what is needed to satisfyingly conclude that story arc, not just from a player perspective, but from a 'writing a proper story' perspective as well. Really, I'd have preferred it if Bioware had avoided creating detailed backstory and/or romances for characters that weren't going to be integral to the overall plot of ME 3. It seems like they set themselves up to get a crap ton of hate mail and 'net floggings for their 'failure' to 'properly' conclude those sub-plot arcs.

A smaller, more cohesive squad makes sense to me. Shep is in the final run up to the final, mega-battle for survival of all organic species. There isn't time to trek the known universe recruiting individuals. Hell, IMO, there's barely time to do that while trying to recruit entire civilizations for the War - but it makes sense that it must be done. In which case, from a story perspective, I think the introduction of *new* LI is a bit weird, mostly because while it's apropos to human psychology to want to reaffirm life in the face of death and having personal motivation makes one fight harder, longer, smarter to survive - finding true love at the climax of the story(from out of the blue) is a bit farfetched. Finding someone to shag is more likely. Delving more deeply into established romances, however, does make sense, which loops me back to my earlier point about LI in this game and the potential 'failure' of the writers to fully realize and satisfy those individual story arcs.

In short, smaller squad featuring characters who've played a role through both previous episodes(Liara, Tali, and Garrus - VS showing up for a cameo doesn't, IMO, make them integral) will enable satisfying conclusions to both major and minor story arcs for those well-detailed characters. Adding the VS is understandable, as well. It's the lack of LI from ME 2 as permenant squad mates that, IMO, makes the squad makeup lacking. I like the smaller squad, but I'd like a couple of the more prominent characters from 2, LI or not, were available as well. It would still keep the squad small, but better integrated both prior installment, IMO.

Well said. Less squadmates means more emphasis on the story, unlike ME2.

[CptData]

silentoption wrote...

Honestly the limited character in ME3 should be base on the players choice instead of sticking to such a limited cast. I know a bunch of us want Thane, Grunt, Jack. Mordon even Miranda. I do think the ME2 are a lot more interesting. The only ME1 characters are Garrus and Liandra

I can hear you. However, just think about it:

Lets give the player the option to create his/her own roster. For my little example I'll pick a trade off - you have a roster of eight guys and four of them are "permanent": Liara, VS, Vega, *spoiler character*.  Those other four places are "free to pick" and you can recruit any character of ME2 that a) survived the SM and you did their story mission too.

That could work: you have your base squadmates and they're needed to drive the main plot forwards. The other four are non-essential for the story - or do have only impact in their story mission before you can recruit them.

Does it work?
In theory, it does. However, it doesn't work in the game. Main issue is the fact you could recruit any of those characters at any given point in the game. So in worst case you can recruit ALL of them just right after the initial missions are done. They could be around for approx 90% of the game.
And of course, they all need dialogue lines for the entire length of the game, for any given situation that might happen.

I don't know how many lines in average are planned for each character. Lets say "2000" lines per main character for the full story.
If we have 10 characters you can freely pick from to create your "perfect roster", every single character still would need 2000 lines of dialogue - or 20.000 for the whole bunch. You still need to write their lines even if most of those characters won't even get recruited or used in battle.

Not only that's a huge waste of resources, you also could remove that feature and add all characters to the Normandy at once. You can't save resources that way.


By the way: I'm pretty sure some characters like Liara have more lines than just 2000.

[implodinggoat]

silentoption wrote...

Honestly the limited character in ME3 should be base on the players choice instead of sticking to such a limited cast. I know a bunch of us want Thane, Grunt, Jack. Mordon even Miranda. I do think the ME2 are a lot more interesting. The only ME1 characters are Garrus and Liandra.

What I meant that can pick who we choose as our 4  to six permanent squad mate is that. You get the entire  list and can only 4 to 6 and that what your stuck with.

The problem with that idea is that if the character is in the game you have to program everything in for them regardless of if they are on your squad or not, so if they did program all of the squadmates in there then they might as well just let you use them all.

That's the exact reason why I thought including Ashley and Kaiden was a bad idea because each one of them requires just as much work for the programmers as any other character; but you can only use one of them.

[Kid Buu]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

Tali.
Garrus.

I dislike the inclusion of these two. Much as I like the characters (and I like them a lot), I get the feeling that Bioware's run out of characterization options for 'em. We probed out Garrus' and Tali's backgrounds in ME 1, and anyone who went from there to ME 2 has to agree that they both had far fewer lines of dialogue than they did in ME 1. Even then it seemed like a ceiling had been reached with how much these two could do. Now they're back, and I'm forced to wonder just what more Bioware could do with them.

Why, fan service, of course.

the same reason they're even part of the squad in ME3.

Or like MJ, who`s sole purpose of existing was fan service.

[wright1978]

jreezy wrote...

Because not being a squadmate denotes a lack of attention?

Well yes that's clear from the hypocrisy that is Tali & Garrus.

[implodinggoat]

Kid Buu wrote...

Or like MJ, who`s sole purpose of existing was fan service.

MJ?  I don't recall Michael Jordan making an appearance in Mass Effect 1 or 2.

[Kid Buu]

implodinggoat wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

Or like MJ, who`s sole purpose of existing was fan service.

MJ?  I don't recall Michael Jordan making an appearance in Mass Effect 1 or 2.

Thats because he didnt.

[silentoption]

So basically we pretty dump all the characters in ME2 and focus on the originals. Wow really. Folks let's dump Jack, Thane, Miranda and the others.. and stick with this limited crew. And focus more on the SL. How about the fans of those characters they won't be happy

Modifié par silentoption, 20 janvier 2012 - 10:40 .

[Kid Buu]

silentoption wrote...

So basically we pretty dump all the characters in ME2 and focus on the originals. Wow really. Folks let's dump Jack, Thane, Miranda and the others.. and stick with this limited crew. And focus more on the SL. How about the fans of those characters they won't be happy

Not a whole lot they can do considering the SM.

[wright1978]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Because not being a squadmate denotes a lack of attention?

Well yes that's clear from the hypocrisy that is Tali & Garrus.

What's the hypocrisy? Explain.

And from the script, a lot of non-squadmates get plenty of attention. So jreezy's completely right.

Of course it is hypocrisy. If temps were getting all the attention he claims Tali & Garrus wouldn't have both got their totally silly bumps up to fully squaddie status.

[AdmiralCheez]

You guys are right--combat functionality has little to do with a character's class. Nonetheless, I'll miss having a wealth of biotics to select from.

I found Tali and Garrus to be two of the most human, relatable, and likable characters in the series. I missed Kaidan and Ashley, I like James Vega a lot (FINALLY, normal guy done right), am super-excited for the DLC squadmate, and have made peace with the fact that Liara is going to be there whether I like it or not. Really, the only one I DON'T look forward to is the Spoiler Squaddie, but hell, Little Miss Perfect, Grow-Your-Own WonderKrogan, and Terminally Ill Ninja Lizard sounded kind of dumb on paper, too.

So I'm happy and you're not. Nah nah na-nah nah.

[Mclouvins]

implodinggoat wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

Or like MJ, who`s sole purpose of existing was fan service.

MJ?  I don't recall Michael Jordan making an appearance in Mass Effect 1 or 2.

Well obviously he's in 3, they ripped the final battle right out of Space Jam.

[wright1978]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Because not being a squadmate denotes a lack of attention?

Well yes that's clear from the hypocrisy that is Tali & Garrus.

What's the hypocrisy? Explain.

And from the script, a lot of non-squadmates get plenty of attention. So jreezy's completely right.

Of course it is hypocrisy. If temps were getting all the attention he claims Tali & Garrus wouldn't have both got their totally silly bumps up to fully squaddie status.

I'm not seeing any connection between those two things at all. What does past squadmates getting attention have to do with Tali and Garrus being full squadmates?

Of course it does. As i said a page earlier, if you are going 2 choose just 2 ME2 squaddies(which i don't agree with) then choosing both Tali & Garrus is wrong from a gaming perspective. You should be choosing 2 like for example Tali or Legion where people would have to make a choice. Forcing both Tali & Garrus is a clear sign they are scared of reaction of not including them as squaddies. If they could sell not being squaddies as being good you wouldn't have the broken squad system where there's a high liklihood of punishing some players doubly with less squaddies and rewarding others doubly with more.