493 réponses à ce sujet

[PMC65]

MACharlie1 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

"if you have me do anything dishonorable, I may be forced to kill you."

Based on this, there is an exception in the oath to Shepard.

Noo. She would still do anything Shepard asks her. She says if you ar a renegede that she will have to kill you. her oath is just not over until collectors are stopped, she will kill Shepard afterwards.

There is a difference between what Shepard does himself and what he tells her to do herself. She can't do anything, until after the oath is up, to him for anything he pulls. But if he tries to make her do some dirty work, then she'd have to kill him. In this case, if Shepard kills a crew member then Samara can't do anything. But if he says "Yo, Samara. Go kill Johnny. He looked at me funny." She'd be compelled to kill Shepard then. 

I'm always surprised how people misunderstood what she meant when she said that.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

That is what I was referring to. Samara in regards to her code has no intention of killing anyone on the Normandy.

Uhmh. She also has no intentions to kill Morinth by her code then, that is just part of her own desires.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

No, she makes it quite clear that she is allowed to give the cop a day.  And now you're claiming the villagers are innocent; so that makes Morinth a monster for brainwashing them, ya?   And I'm sure the code allows for self defense against an innocent.

No, that is the logical way of following code. It's an if statement.

if an innocent will be harmed by taking action
             do not take action
else if
             ........
else
           Take action

If Samara is a machine, as you claim, that is how she follows her code.

I am not claiming anything. Samara loses in any situation. Either villigers are not innocent then Morinth is ok with brainwashing them, or villigers are innocent and Morinth used them to protect herself from Samara, and Samara slaughtered them.

That is how her code works yes. There are no innocent people on the normandy, just the ones that her code would demand be punished. 

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...

I am not claiming anything. Samara loses in any situation. Either villigers are not innocent then Morinth is ok with brainwashing them, or villigers are innocent and Morinth used them to protect herself from Samara, and Samara slaughtered them.

That is how her code works yes. There are no innocent people on the normandy, just the ones that her code would demand be punished. 

No, they were innocent and brainwashed into being slaves who could only obey their master's command.  Morinth defiled them and Samara cleansed them. 

No innocent people?  Please, back up that claim, if you are so certain that every person on the Normandy is guilty according to it.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

No, they were innocent and brainwashed into being slaves who could only obey their master's command.  Morinth defiled them and Samara cleansed them. 

No innocent people?  Please, back up that claim, if you are so certain that every person on the Normandy is guilty according to it.

Morinth "defiled" them to save herself from Samara, that is my opinion. And as I said they probably ( as suggested by Shepards fail to resist Morinth ) could be mentaly healed back in time. 

No sorry I am not going to talk about the obvious, YOU go ahead and point out innocent people on the Normandy. 

[Xeranx]

jreezy wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Which still doesn't matter since Samara since she's governed by her code which tells her what to do.  

That is what I was referring to. Samara in regards to her code has no intention of killing anyone on the Normandy.

So you're essentially saying that the code states that the crew will come to no harm if Shepard dies?  If so, I don't know how that can be substantiated considering the people on board.  

My guess for people who probably have nothing to worry about would be: Kelly, Gardner, Joker, Mordin, Ken and Gabby, Tali, and other cerberus personnel on the ship.  The other active combatants on the crew are harder to figure.  The only one I can imagine having an easier time getting away from Samara without incident is Kasumi.  Everyone else, however, is a very tough call.

[D.Kain]

jreezy wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

jreezy wrote...

That is what I was referring to. Samara in regards to her code has no intention of killing anyone on the Normandy.

Uhmh. She also has no intentions to kill Morinth by her code then, that is just part of her own desires.

Making stuff up. Why do you keep doing that? You know what, scratch that, keep doing it. Proving you wrong is rather entertaining.

You are not proving me wrong. I am not making stuff up, you can't even tell a sarcastic comment based as a satire of your false logic from a real one. 

[D.Kain]

Xeranx wrote...

So you're essentially saying that the code states that the crew will come to no harm if Shepard dies?  If so, I don't know how that can be substantiated considering the people on board.  

My guess for people who probably have nothing to worry about would be: Kelly, Gardner, Joker, Mordin, Ken and Gabby, Tali, and other cerberus personnel on the ship.  The other active combatants on the crew are harder to figure.  The only one I can imagine having an easier time getting away from Samara without incident is Kasumi.  Everyone else, however, is a very tough call.

Ok so Cerberus group as an organisation ( personnel ) is perectly fine with Justicars?

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...

Morinth "defiled" them to save herself from Samara, that is my opinion. And as I said they probably ( as suggested by Shepards fail to resist Morinth ) could be mentaly healed back in time. 

No sorry I am not going to talk about the obvious, YOU go ahead and point out innocent people on the Normandy. 

Your opinion is one of the few opinions that has the honor of being completely wrong, but you can hold it if you'd like.  Probably is quite the longshot when they're all trying to kill you, and I doubt that killing in self defense is forbidden by the Code.  And suggesting the same thing using Shepard, who was under her spell for less than a minute, against a long period of time? 

The crew, the cook, Kelly, the Engineers, arguably Tali, likely Kasumi, Jacob, Joker, Chakwas; and that's without stretching it.

[PMC65]

BlueMagitek wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

I am not claiming anything. Samara loses in any situation. Either villigers are not innocent then Morinth is ok with brainwashing them, or villigers are innocent and Morinth used them to protect herself from Samara, and Samara slaughtered them.

That is how her code works yes. There are no innocent people on the normandy, just the ones that her code would demand be punished. 

No, they were innocent and brainwashed into being slaves who could only obey their master's command.  Morinth defiled them and Samara cleansed them. 

No innocent people?  Please, back up that claim, if you are so certain that every person on the Normandy is guilty according to it.

When Samara talked about the villagers it made my Shepard think of Feros.

While in some of my playthroughs Shepard was able to knock all of them out ... well there are times that not all of them survived. The shepard's that failed to save them all understood how horrible it is to kill innocents while battling an enemy. 

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Your opinion is one of the few opinions that has the honor of being completely wrong, but you can hold it if you'd like.  Probably is quite the longshot when they're all trying to kill you, and I doubt that killing in self defense is forbidden by the Code.  And suggesting the same thing using Shepard, who was under her spell for less than a minute, against a long period of time? 

The crew, the cook, Kelly, the Engineers, arguably Tali, likely Kasumi, Jacob, Joker, Chakwas; and that's without stretching it.

An opinion can't be wrong or right. We do not know how Morinth powers really work, and don't know the limits of it, so we can only speculate again...


Same as the point above. Cerberus as an organisation is fine in Justicars eyes?

[D.Kain]

PMC65 wrote...

When Samara talked about the villagers it made my Shepard think of Feros.

While in some of my playthroughs Shepard was able to knock all of them out ... well there are times that not all of them survived. The shepard's that failed to save them all understood how horrible it is to kill innocents while battling an enemy. 

Fair enough. If you wouldn't choose to deal with the Throrian later in order to save the colony. Thena again I just don't support Samara going after Morinth in the first place. That is my opinion.

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...

An opinion can't be wrong or right. We do not know how Morinth powers really work, and don't know the limits of it, so we can only speculate again...


Same as the point above. Cerberus as an organisation is fine in Justicars eyes?

That is actually incorrect.  If you misinterpret the information, then yes, an opinion can be wrong.  And now you're deflecting again.  Morinth managed to hold an entire village under her sway and had them sacrifice their own to her.  Thinking the minute or so that Shepard was entranced is equivilant to what happened in the village is horribly ignorant.

Samara has not seen those commit atrocities, nor have they been known to be involved in any atrocities.  Considering that the Eclipse still exists, I think it would be a huge leap to suggest that Samara hunts down people soley on their organization.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

That is actually incorrect.  If you misinterpret the information, then yes, an opinion can be wrong.  And now you're deflecting again.  Morinth managed to hold an entire village under her sway and had them sacrifice their own to her.  Thinking the minute or so that Shepard was entranced is equivilant to what happened in the village is horribly ignorant.

Samara has not seen those commit atrocities, nor have they been known to be involved in any atrocities.  Considering that the Eclipse still exists, I think it would be a huge leap to suggest that Samara hunts down people soley on their organization.

The fact that I can "missinterpret" the information speak for the fact that there is not enough clear information. I have no bias what so ever, I simply observe things and come up with conclusions, just like you, only different conclusions.

We do not know how her powers works, and if time means anything in the matter. Again.

Every crew member on teh normandy knows who they are working with. They all can ask Shepard who else is on the crew or check the files or merely talk to each other. Jacob for example didn't like Thane, because he knew who he was and what he was doing. Samara would know too. And she would deal with an assassin, and with a merc, adn with a thief. etc. 

Cerberus is a terrorist organisation, that is xenophobic, that Samara would have to deal with.

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...


The fact that I can "missinterpret" the information speak for the fact that there is not enough clear information. I have no bias what so ever, I simply observe things and come up with conclusions, just like you, only different conclusions.

We do not know how her powers works, and if time means anything in the matter. Again.

Every crew member on teh normandy knows who they are working with. They all can ask Shepard who else is on the crew or check the files or merely talk to each other. Jacob for example didn't like Thane, because he knew who he was and what he was doing. Samara would know too. And she would deal with an assassin, and with a merc, adn with a thief. etc. 

Cerberus is a terrorist organisation, that is xenophobic, that Samara would have to deal with.

No, that was just an example.  In your case, you're just stuck with a very strange sense of morals. Go look through the one hundred or so page topic we've already had about it.

Easy way to solve this.  The Code, as stated by Samara, does not allow her to kill an innocent.  Samara was forced to put down the villagers; therefore, after Morinth's defiling, they were no longer covered under innocent.

Because Cerberus is going to give the dossiers to Samara?  Jacob knows who he's dealing with because as a part of Cerberus, he gets to know more specifics about who is coming on board than say, Garrus.

The Eclipse are a bunch of AY transporters, drug runners & murderers, Samara makes no comment on extinguishing them as a whole.

[Xeranx]

D.Kain wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

So you're essentially saying that the code states that the crew will come to no harm if Shepard dies?  If so, I don't know how that can be substantiated considering the people on board.  

My guess for people who probably have nothing to worry about would be: Kelly, Gardner, Joker, Mordin, Ken and Gabby, Tali, and other cerberus personnel on the ship.  The other active combatants on the crew are harder to figure.  The only one I can imagine having an easier time getting away from Samara without incident is Kasumi.  Everyone else, however, is a very tough call.

Ok so Cerberus group as an organisation ( personnel ) is perectly fine with Justicars?

I don't think Cerberus, as an organization, would be acceptable to any Justicar.  However, I openly stated that I'm making guesses about the crew on board the Normandy.  With his statements, Gardner is the closest to the Cerberus ideal and Kelly appears too idealistic to hold to any real goals that Cerberus might actually have going towards human dominance, but that could be a front.  Then again, watching Burn Notice probably has me wary of all psychologists/psychiatrists now.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

No, that was just an example.  In your case, you're just stuck with a very strange sense of morals. Go look through the one hundred or so page topic we've already had about it.

Easy way to solve this.  The Code, as stated by Samara, does not allow her to kill an innocent.  Samara was forced to put down the villagers; therefore, after Morinth's defiling, they were no longer covered under innocent.

Because Cerberus is going to give the dossiers to Samara?  Jacob knows who he's dealing with because as a part of Cerberus, he gets to know more specifics about who is coming on board than say, Garrus.

The Eclipse are a bunch of AY transporters, drug runners & murderers, Samara makes no comment on extinguishing them as a whole.

Not more strange morals than Samara. 

So? Just proves that her code is black and white, crew is in trouble.


Ok from a non gameplay perspective the crew would always work together, everyone, not just 3 people ( gameplay ). And they would know each other and talk to each other, and I just take it as canon that everyone knows everyone. Because you can take Samara on say Thane's reqruitment and she will know who is being reqruited and see him assassinate.

Of course Samara would kill them all, she just doesn't have enough power for that, she is one person. She killed the local eclipse, and she will deal with the local cerberus.

Modifié par D.Kain, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:15 .

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...

Not more strange morals than Samara. 

So? Just proves that her code is black and white, crew is in trouble.

Ok from a non gameplay perspective the crew would always work together, everyone, not just 3 people ( gameplay ). And they would know each other and talk to each other, and I just take it as canon that everyone knows everyone. Because you can take Samara on say Thane's reqruitment and she will know who is being reqruited and see him assassinate.

Of course Samara would kill them all, she just doesn't have enough power for that, she is one person. She killed the local eclipse, and she will deal with the local cerberus.

Samara has the excuse of being a 700+ year old alien in an ancient Paladin-esque order.

She never made any claim otherwise.

You can know another person without knowing that they were an assassin for the government, has an issue with their kid and is dying of a lung disease when they could have gotten a transplant.  Samara seems to spend most of her time meditating in her room.

Funny, you need to identify what crime they've committed according to her book, and "being part of a black ops organization" wasn't ever brought up.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Samara has the excuse of being a 700+ year old alien in an ancient Paladin-esque order.

She never made any claim otherwise.

You can know another person without knowing that they were an assassin for the government, has an issue with their kid and is dying of a lung disease when they could have gotten a transplant.  Samara seems to spend most of her time meditating in her room.

Funny, you need to identify what crime they've committed according to her book, and "being part of a black ops organization" wasn't ever brought up.

So I have an excuse to get rid of her. 

As I pointed out before. Since Samara can go on a Thane reqruitment mission and witness who we are reqruiting first hand with an assassination infront of her eyes, or can see how Zaeed blows up a factory, I take it as canon that each crew member knows other crew members. I take it as canon that they are all provided information about who they are working with and what are their skills to work better as a team. 

The last argument is fair enough. Ok perhaps she wouldn't kill someone that supports a twisted organisation, but only one that would act first hand in the twisted ways. 

Modifié par D.Kain, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:30 .

[BlueMagitek]

D.Kain wrote...

So I have an excuse to get rid of her. 

As I pointed out before. Since Samara can go on a Thane reqruitment mission and witness who we are reqruiting first hand with an assassination infront of her eyes, or can see how Zaeed blows up a factory, I take it as canon that each crew member knows other crew members. I take it as canon that they are all provided information about who they are working with and what are their skills to work better as a team. 

The last argument is fair enough. Ok perhaps she wouldn't kill someone that supports a twisted organisation, but only one that would act first hand in the twisted ways. 

You'd kill someone for having a different system of morality?  No wonder you're a Morinth fan.

Considering that it is impossible for every squad member to be everywhere at once and that you don't even need every single squad member to go on, it isn't canon, no.  You didn't even need Garrus in ME 1, and the game does slightly address that in ME2.  It's quite possible to pick up Samara last, or not at all, so having her be at every recruitment or loyalty mission is quite impossible.

That is the vibe that a person tends to get,  yes.

[D.Kain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You'd kill someone for having a different system of morality?  No wonder you're a Morinth fan.

Considering that it is impossible for every squad member to be everywhere at once and that you don't even need every single squad member to go on, it isn't canon, no.  You didn't even need Garrus in ME 1, and the game does slightly address that in ME2.  It's quite possible to pick up Samara last, or not at all, so having her be at every recruitment or loyalty mission is quite impossible.

That is the vibe that a person tends to get,  yes.

Not a different system of morality but the one that is hurtful to society. 

I personally believe that in canon no squad member sits on the Normandy and is being useless. There are a total max of 12 squadies so I imagine ALL of them would visit every mission. 3 members are just a part of gameplay, not story. And as I said it makes sense for everyone to know who they are working with to know what to expect in battle, so everyone would have the background on each other, not involving teary personal stories that are shared with Shepard. 

[C9316]

Why anyone would side with that psycho serial killer who defiles snu snu, and then most likely sets her free to kill more by snu snu is beyond me...

[D.Kain]

C9316 wrote...

Why anyone would side with that psycho serial killer who defiles snu snu, and then most likely sets her free to kill more by snu snu is beyond me...

Because one wouldn't agree on the statements that you just provided. 

[ObserverStatus]

C9316 wrote...
Why anyone would side with that psycho serial killer who defiles snu snu, and then most likely sets her free to kill more by snu snu is beyond me...

Allow me to explain.  The Shepard + Morinth romance subplot is like The Twilight Saga.  Edward and Bella can't do it because if they do, Edward will go batsh*t and suck out all her blood, but that just makes her want him more.  However, she knows that if she abstains long enough for Edward's family to accept her, then he'll inject her with his vampire venom and make her into another vampire, so she can survive childbirth.  If Shepard stays faithful to Morinth in ME2 but abstains, she totally will turn him into another ardat-yakshi.

Modifié par bobobo878, 22 janvier 2012 - 07:50 .