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Prazza, Hero or Fool?

Débuté par Guest_Saphra Deden_* , janv. 19 2012 08:57

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#326
Demoiselle
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 06:38

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Kid Buu wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

I love it when Prazza tells Shepard why they dont trust Cerberus and MJ says, ``Thats not how I would put it exactly.`` Really, how else would you put it? Thats exactly what happened.


It was nothing personal.

killing that many people so you can continue to conduct illegal experiments does not need to be personal. Though, MJs stupidity is obvious so I guess I can get over this.


Oh god, that line. No idea what she was talking about first time round, now I've read the books I want a Overlord-style paragon interrupt everytime she says it. 'Nothing personal'...? So it's fine if you killed all those people so you could recapture a little girl if they weren't what you were after. I'm pretty sure the quarians nailed what happened better then you did MJ.

#327
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 06:38

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AgitatedLemon wrote...

Do you know exactly why Cerberus attacked the Fleet?


No, tell me.

#328
Kid Buu
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 06:39

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

It would have been better if they didnt do it all. Or if MJ could at least admit it that what they did was wrong.


Well I don't know that it was wrong but the bad blood that resulted shouldn't be a surprise.

We have been over this. Killing thousands of innocent people for illegal experiments, potentially crippling an ally against the reapers and creating more hatred towards Cerberus. No, nothing justifies what they did. The fact that MJ does not seem to have a problem with it speaks volumes about her character. What a joke.

Modifié par Kid Buu, 20 janvier 2012 - 06:41 .

#329
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 06:41

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Kid Buu wrote...

We have been over this. Killing thousands of innocent people for illegal experiments, potentially crippling an ally against the reapers and creating more hatred towards Cerberus. No, nothing justifies what they did.


It's perfectly justified.

1.) The quarians are unknown and potentially dangerous

2.) Cerberus didn't know about the Reapers at the time

3.) They never intended for the quarians to know of their involvement in the first place

4.) Experiments being illegal does not make them immoral, don't hide behind the letter of the law

Cerberus didn't do what they did because they were sadistic or had any desire to kill quarians. It was a means to an end.

#330
AgitatedLemon
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 06:43

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Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Do you know exactly why Cerberus attacked the Fleet?


No, tell me.


Quick summarization.


http://masseffect.wi...#Saving_Gillian

#331
Kid Buu
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 06:44

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Kid Buu wrote...

We have been over this. Killing thousands of innocent people for illegal experiments, potentially crippling an ally against the reapers and creating more hatred towards Cerberus. No, nothing justifies what they did.


It's perfectly justified.

1.) The quarians are unknown and potentially dangerous

2.) Cerberus didn't know about the Reapers at the time

3.) They never intended for the quarians to know of their involvement in the first place

4.) Experiments being illegal does not make them immoral, don't hide behind the letter of the law

Cerberus didn't do what they did because they were sadistic or had any desire to kill quarians. It was a means to an end.

1. Every species is potentially dangerous. Your point?

2. Yes they did. What is the first thing MJ says in ME2? ``The reapers are still out there, If we lose shepard... ect.``

3. Indeed, but when the quarians did get involved that apparently meant that Cerberus thought they had the right to kill thousands of people.

4. The experiments were immoral. You know that. Even if they werent and regardless of their motivation, what they did was wrong. They could have found another way to get Gillian back. Killing thousands of innocent people was not the way to do it.

Saphra we both know that even if getting Gillian back was so important, there are other, better ways they could have done it. Some things Cerberus has done I could maybe see justified, like: Overlord. What they did in Ascension though, was just stupid.

Modifié par Kid Buu, 20 janvier 2012 - 06:55 .

#332
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 07:10

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Kid Buu wrote...

1.) The quarians are unknown and potentially dangerous


My point is that they are all potentially dangerous, especially when you have no diplomatic relations with them and can't spy on them. The Flotilla was impossible to infiltrate, and that was a bad thing. Ascension proved this.

2. Yes they did. What is the first thing MJ says in ME2? ``The reapers are still out there, If we lose shepard... ect.``

They didn't in the novel but I suppose Bioware did retcon that. It doesn't really matter though because again: it was not intended for the raid to fail and if it had succeeded there would be no witnesses.

Thankfully, it didn't even have a negative affect seeing as the quarians were quite happy to befriend Cerberus in ME2.

4. The experiments were immoral.

No they weren't.

Kidd Buu

Saphra we both know that even if getting Gillian back was so important, there are other, better ways they could have done it.


Perhaps you're right. Perhaps they should have been more patient. I don't remember what the rush was in the novel, it has been a long time since I read it.

#333
NuclearBuddha
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 07:18

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Prazza: Hero or Fool?

How about... murderer.

#334
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 20 janvier 2012 - 10:14

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NuclearBuddha wrote...

Prazza: Hero or Fool?

How about... murderer.


Murder, really? When did that happen? I think Tali would be willing to murder before Prazza would. She's already willing to cover for thieves and war criminals. Just a little push and she'll start having her enemies wacked.

#335
Killjoy Cutter
Posté 23 janvier 2012 - 05:26

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Cerberus didn't do what they did because they were sadistic or had any desire to kill quarians. It was a means to an end.


The act matters as much as the intent.

#336
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 janvier 2012 - 09:35

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The quarians should have stayed out of humanity's business.

#337
Made Nightwing
Posté 23 janvier 2012 - 10:32

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jreezy wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

jreezy wrote...

"He's just some douchebag in a chair pretending to be something and trying to play on Shepard's emotions."

This is very accurate.


He's running a large organization with military efficiency... you think he's just a pretender?

The organization isn't why I think he's a pretender. He thinks he's good for humanity. I'm skeptical of that. 


Sorry to bring this up, but this line of thought actually interests me a lot. If you look at ME: Evolution, you can see that General Williams orders him to find a way to protect humanity. Although he's probably long forgotten any morals that he had in his youth, TIM probably still justifies his actions to himself by saying that he's still following a direct order to protect humanity.

#338
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 janvier 2012 - 10:43

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What gives Jreezy the right to decide what or who is good for humanity? I highly doubt he has TIM's vision or intelligence so I'm not sure I'm going to give his opinion any weight. Most people can't look at the big picture or the long term.

#339
Wulfram
Posté 23 janvier 2012 - 11:06

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BlueMagitek wrote...
 Shep disobeyed the Council & Udina, his superiors. 


Shep never disobeys the Council's orders, and Udina isn't his superior.

In fairness, this may just me being overly pedantic.  But nevertheless, as far as I can see the council only express opinions, never issue orders to contradict the existing ones to hunt down Saren.

#340
Skullheart
Posté 23 janvier 2012 - 11:58

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Prazza wasn'r a fool or hero. He was a victim of the buckethead poor leadership.

And, the quarians took one of Cerberus assets, and expecting that they will do nothing on return? They still don't learn that every action provokes a reaction. They didn't learn it from the geth neither learned it from Gillian.

#341
Killjoy Cutter
Posté 24 janvier 2012 - 03:42

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Saphra Deden wrote...

The quarians should have stayed out of humanity's business.



LoL. 

That's right, you're one of those "Cerberus is humanity" drones... 

Image IPB

#342
nelly21
Posté 24 janvier 2012 - 03:54

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I'm a little late to this party and will read the entire thread as the day goes on but my my opinion is that he is an idiot.

I can understand his distrust of Cerberus given their history. I can even understand his annoyance at working together with them. What I can't condone is his disregard for a superior officer's orders particularly when those orders get him and his entire squad killed.

In his haste to beat Cerberus to Veetor, he ran directly into a heavy mech which he wasn't prepared for. Knowing that Veetor had programmed the colony's defenses to attack on sight and given quarian's issues with in field injuries, he should have at least proceeded cautiously. He didn't. He raced on ahead and his squadmates paid the ultimate price for it.

So my two cents? He's an idiot.

#343
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 25 janvier 2012 - 10:54

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Prazza is a typical example of what can happen if you put your ideals and misplaced sense of honor and moral values above logal and rational thinking.

This could happen to any Collector-base destroying Paragon Shepard.


If Prazza knew about the mech at the end of the level, he would have worked with Shepard. But Prazza didn't know about the mech, so he saw no reason to work with Shepard. That's why we went on alone.

Now, you, as Shepard, are in the same situation as Prazza was, however, the big difference is that you as Shepard KNOW that there will be "a heavy mech" at the end (the reapers). Despise this knowledge, many Shepard (the Paragon Shepards) still make the same mistake as Prazza made. You let fear for Cerbrus lead your actions, but it's not Cerberus you should be afraid of, but "the heavy mech at the end" is what you should be afraid of. The reapers is what you should be afraid of.

So, are you going to work together with TIM (which includes keeping the Collector base), or are you going to charge into the fray alone, knowing that there will be "a heavy mech" waiting for you at the end of the road?

You know that you alone can't face "the heavy mech". You will fall like Prazza. Gathering allies won't grant you victory against the "the heavy mech" either. Prazza had a squad and they still didn't stand a chance against the heavy mech.

What you need is a McGuffin. There is no other way to beat the reapers than with a McGuffin. TIM is searching for this McGuffin. TIM hopes to find this McGuffin at the Collector base. And you just blew it up.... or didn't you?

#344
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 25 janvier 2012 - 11:03

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Kidd Buu

Saphra we both know that even if getting Gillian back was so important, there are other, better ways they could have done it.


Perhaps you're right. Perhaps they should have been more patient. I don't remember what the rush was in the novel, it has been a long time since I read it.


No, he's not right. The Migrant fleet is almost impossible to infiltrate. Cerberus had the perfect plan. It was now or never.

The rush was the fact that the migrant fleet travels from place to place. It never stays at one place at the same time for long. Cerberus had the current location of the migrant fleet, so they had to act NOW or else they might arrive to late. If Cerberus reached the coordinates to late, the migrant fleet might have been gone already.

So there was a good reason to rush. There also was a good reason to except that their rescure mission would succeed. After all, they had a quarian ship, a quarian traitor and a small army of elite shock-troopers. it was the perfect setup. The only reason why the mission failed is because Paul Grayson decided to betray TIM and Cerberus at the last moment.

If Paul Grayson didn't turn his back on TIM at the last moment, the mission would have been a huge succes.


So, conclusion? No, Kid Buu is wrong (as always). There was no better way they could have done it. They had the perfect plan and it would have succeeded if Grayson didn't turn his back on Cerberus at the very last moment.

Modifié par Luc0s, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:14 .

#345
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Posté 25 janvier 2012 - 11:07

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Skullheart wrote...

Prazza wasn'r a fool or hero. He was a victim of the buckethead poor leadership.

Because he's not accountable for his own actions? No that's not how it works. It's not Tali's fault that he wanted to get to Veetor before Cerberus, it's his fault.

#346
Someone With Mass
Posté 25 janvier 2012 - 01:02

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Saphra Deden wrote...

The quarians should have stayed out of humanity's business.


How about the other way around, since Cerberus can't stay the f**k away from other species' business?

Don't be such a massive hypocrite.

#347
Pride Demon
Posté 25 janvier 2012 - 01:28

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Saphra, what do YOU think of Prazza?
I may have missed it, but I didn't notice you "voicing" your opinion about him...
Considering you started the thread courtesy would dictate you share your viewpoint first... :P

#348
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Posté 25 janvier 2012 - 01:30

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Pride Demon wrote...

Saphra, what do YOU think of Prazza?
I may have missed it, but I didn't notice you "voicing" your opinion about him...
Considering you started the thread courtesy would dictate you share your viewpoint first... :P

Look through the thread, Saphra's contributed already. Your turn.

#349
Pride Demon
Posté 25 janvier 2012 - 01:49

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jreezy wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Saphra, what do YOU think of Prazza?
I may have missed it, but I didn't notice you "voicing" your opinion about him...
Considering you started the thread courtesy would dictate you share your viewpoint first... :P

Look through the thread, Saphra's contributed already. Your turn.

He/she wrote a lot of posts, I never saw one stating exactly whether he/she feels Prazza is a hero or a fool...
If he/she did, then I apologize, point me to it... :)

Modifié par Pride Demon, 25 janvier 2012 - 01:49 .

#350
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Posté 25 janvier 2012 - 02:01

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Pride Demon wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...

Saphra, what do YOU think of Prazza?
I may have missed it, but I didn't notice you "voicing" your opinion about him...
Considering you started the thread courtesy would dictate you share your viewpoint first... :P

Look through the thread, Saphra's contributed already. Your turn.

He/she wrote a lot of posts, I never saw one stating exactly whether he/she feels Prazza is a hero or a fool...
If he/she did, then I apologize, point me to it... :)

This:

Saphra Deden wrote...
Prazza was brave and had good reason to mistrust Tali and Shepard/Cerberus. It was mostly bad luck and fate that did him in. Sure, with Shepard's help he might have got passed the heavy mech, but then trusting Shepard and Cerberus might have just delayed the inevitable.

Either way it was a risk but Prazza at least took the path that he thought would get his people out of the dangerous situation faster.


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