355 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

Unless Bioware goes into background with his specific character, we can't really learn much about it. He could of had a personality relating to going with his emotional thought process instead of thinking about it logically first, was he known more action or words, has he ever disobeyed orders before, if so, why was he on the mission? Did Tali hand pick the group (probably not), etc. There's too many variables to consider IMO, but again it depends on how you view it.

[OmegaBlue0231]

He was a fool but I think that in his mind he saw himself as a hero who was saving one of his own from the Collectors and Cerberus.

[Aimi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes it does. It is worth understanding the dead to understand their legacy. Or are you against memorials from a philosophical standpoint too?

My post was meant to imply other questions as well.

There is a difference between history and hagiography. Questions of heroism belong to the latter.

[Chewin]

Mesina2 wrote...

He disobeyed order from his superior, which was very valid since they were not equipped for frontal assault and they unsurprisingly got killed for making frontal assault.

Prazza IS an idiot.

Read Saphra's post again. It was pretty valid imo.

Prazza doesn't know Shepard as good as Tali does. Tali notices that Prazza doesn't trust Shepard and co, but doesn't do a good job at convincing Prazza. And with someone as Tali as squad leader, I dont judge them for running away. Running around not equipped for frontal assault, now that is you could consider behaving idiotically. Though neither did they know that there were two heavy mechs waiting around the corner.

Based on what?
We didn't see her doing anything tactical or team-building on neither of those cases.

Not saying she does have some brilliant skills there, but there's nothing to say she doesn't have some.

True, but getting the squad killed again can't show that there's anything postive in her for it.

And that makes Tali an idiot, how?

That makes admirals idiots, not her.

Sorry, I must have misspoken. Tali isn't the idiot there. It was the Admirals I was hinting at.

[Labrev]

He died for nothing. Either he was wrong to fear that Cerberus would take Veetor away, or he was right and failed to stop it from happening. So I say "fool."

Say he cooperates, lives, and Cerberus takes Veetor anyway. Oh well, at least he lived to fight another day. As it is, he doesn't do his people any good being dead now.

[BlueMagitek]

PMC65 wrote...

I have a Shepard that did just that.

She gave the base to TIM without hesitation and then I was pis5ed that every teammate was against it. ReallY? Whether Bioware considers the decision unwise at the end of the day ... every teammate has the same opinion?When does that ever happen? 

But that is for another topic.

Which is strange as there are several advocates of keeping the base before you blow it up. 

But back on the topic, Prazza had legitimate concerns that Cerberus would ruin their mission and their Commander seems just fine with that.  Heck, Shepard did the same thing in ME 1 when he stole the Normandy; granted, the situations were rather different, but Shep disobeyed the Council & Udina, his superiors.  Then again, Prazza was in a military situation instead of a political one. 

Prazza probably should have heeded Tali's warning of caution, despite her incompetence as a leader.

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's a very harsh way of looking at things but I suppose it is accurate.

Do you apply your logic to Captain Anderson's raid on Cerberus?

What exactly is the story with Anderson's raid?

[mineralica]

Nashiktal wrote...

Fool. If he wanted to mutiny there were betters ways of doing it, like ambushing the cerberus team while their weapons were down, instead of rushing ahead in un-scouted and un-secured territory.

Then again we don't even know if this was a military operation or not, so I guess we can't exactly fault them for tactics entirely.

Agreed. Rushing ahead for frontal assault and getting pissed off Cerberus squad at your heels isn't great tactical decision. Waiting where Tali was waiting, letting Shepard & Co enter... whatever that square with heavy mech was, letting Shepard get to Veetor and then entering together with Tali when she interrupted Miranda would be better. "Hi Shepard, thanks for dealing with two heavy mechs and whoever else, depleting thermal clips and shield batteries on a way. You wanted to take Veetor? Too bad 6-8 quarians with guns drawn are waiting".

[goofyomnivore]

Very interesting analogy/point Saphra. Thanks for sharing this.

I don't think he is a fool. Prazza knew Shepard's legacy through Tali and the vids probably. Now the Savior of the Citadel -- back from the dead is potentially standing between him and Veetor. I'd say his chances are better of potentially fighting on their own rather than potentially negotiating with Shepard/Cerberus.

I keep the Base personally, and if I was Prazza I wouldn't of gone after Veetor on my own. However I think he had some practical motives and wasn't foolish.

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

What exactly is the story with Anderson's raid?

I'm surprised you don't know. I'll be as brief as possible.

Cerberus kidnaps Paul Grayson but just before they get to him he manages to send a message to Kahlee Sanders that details everything he knows about Cerberus. This includes the identities of agents and their covers in the Systems Alliance and elsewhere. It also lists known front companies and known bases.

Kahlee gives this information to Anderson. After looking at it Anderson decides that he can't trust the Alliance to act on this info and instead he takes it to the turians. The turians then arrest Alliance personnel (who are known Cerberus spies), other Alliance citizens, raids companies known as Cerberus fronts, and even attacks the known Cerberus bases. The goal is to rescue Paul Grayson and kill or capture the Illusive Man.

The fallout from this makes the Alliance look incompetent, Anderson quits his job on the citadel (before he can be fired). All in all it is a massive political fustercluck that accomplishes nothing since TIM gets away and Cerberus will just rebuild (and oh boy do they rebuild according to ME3).

Naturally many readers like myself also came to the conclusion that Anderson's raid would severely screw up Alliance/Turian relations, possibly leak Alliance secrets to the turians, and weaken the only group in the galaxy actually trying to prevent the impending appocalypse (or not).

Why Anderson rushed to jump on this information, acting on it in a very reckless way, is a mystery.

I'd heard a little bit about it, didn't know the details.

I get the feeling Grayson was not rescued, and TIM obviously wasn't killed/captured. Sounds like a fail to me (and then some).

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Oh Grayson was rescued. However at that point he'd been implanted by volatile Reaper tech and indoctrinated. Just before the turians kicked in the door Cerberus had decided he was too dangerous to let live any longer and were about to execute him (within the next few hours IIRC). Then the turians set him lose and the second half of the book began.

Eventually he was brought down, with Cerberus help.

Was it worth the trouble, then? Doesn't sound like it.

[Spoiledrotten]

Neither.

I wouldn't have trusted Shepard either, nor would I rely on Tali after she made it clear that she cannot be objective on this issue. So no, I don't think he is a fool for not blindly following authority.

However, he isn't really a hero either. Tali really isn't that much of an authority figure, influential father or not. Plus, he didn't really do anything, he didn't save Veetor, and his death didn't change anything, in the end, Shepard does whatever he wants, and Tali lets him.

[Soccer FeverMan]

mineralica wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Fool. If he wanted to mutiny there were betters ways of doing it, like ambushing the cerberus team while their weapons were down, instead of rushing ahead in un-scouted and un-secured territory.

Then again we don't even know if this was a military operation or not, so I guess we can't exactly fault them for tactics entirely.

Agreed. Rushing ahead for frontal assault and getting pissed off Cerberus squad at your heels isn't great tactical decision. Waiting where Tali was waiting, letting Shepard & Co enter... whatever that square with heavy mech was, letting Shepard get to Veetor and then entering together with Tali when she interrupted Miranda would be better. "Hi Shepard, thanks for dealing with two heavy mechs and whoever else, depleting thermal clips and shield batteries on a way. You wanted to take Veetor? Too bad 6-8 quarians with guns drawn are waiting".

Damn thats genius actually, i wonder what Shepard would do if they allowed him to live would he hold a grudge...

Modifié par Soccer FeverMan, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:46 .

[Spartanburger]

Hm. Was prazza and idiot or a hero...
Probably one of the better debate subjects here.

The following is only my opinion:

He is neither.

He is no fool. Prazza had no experience working with Shepard. He had no way of knowing if Shepard really was Shepard too. All he had to go on was the word of "the Admiral's daughter." Add to that the obvious fact that Shep, regardless of whether or not the player supported or opposed Cerberus morality, was flanked by two Cerberus commandos, it would be very logical to assume that he was one too. With the events depicted in Ascension against the Flotilla by Cerberus, it is no shock that Prazza turned on Tali. Even if Shepard was not flanked by Cerberus commandos (lets assume alliance instead), with the Cerberus attack being the vast majority of Quarian-Human interaction that we know of, it is possible that Humans could be seen in a somewhat similar fashion to how Humans see Batarians.

The only thing he had to go on was the 'Shepard legend' portrayed by the media and possibly Tali, and the Tali's assurance that this was the real Shepard and that you could trust him. That's very little to go on.

Now if I were to analyze his attitude in the short time we know him, I would say that he has a grudge against Tali. It's as if he is jealous of her, probably her position of command. It is possible that the squad used to be a small group of friends with Prazza as the squad commander. With 'the Admiral's daughter' back from pilgrimage and (assuming you gave her the Geth data in ME1 or that she found something of equal value if you didn't) with a amazing gift to boot, it is possible that Tali was offered the position of command above Prazza. It's possible that this would require bypassing other ranks in between (or at least going through them at a much faster than normal rate). Prazza could be jealous of the position she has, he could severely dislike how he was forced out of the command of his squad, he could see Tali as being unfit for the job because of bypassing rank and having the belief that she has very little command experience (which is actually rather true).
For me, I'm actually surprised he didn't try something more. Perhaps accusing her of treason as well. It could even have turned violent between Tali and Prazza once they had split off from Shep and co.

Another thing we have to consider is why seemingly the entire squad, aside from Tali, followed Prazza in their 'betrayal.' This is one of the things that I consider as substantiating the theory that Prazza used to command the squad before Tali. But the squad wasn't completely loyal to him. They were still loyal enough to Tali to let her follow them closely before encountering the mech (where Tali then provided medical help to those injured while Shep fought).

Now why did they lose to the mech? That is a good question. It is possible that they did not think there was one, or that it activated just as they stumbled upon it. Even though, we are dealing with what can be argued as the most tech-strong race in the galaxy. You'd think that they'd be able to shut it down before it whiped the squad out. But remember that the Quarians are not meant for a frontline assault. If the Mech surprised them, many lives could be mowed down before anyone could have raised their omni-tool. It is also likely that, with this being a more search and rescue mission, the Quarians were unprepared for any heavy resistance.

Now is Prazza a hero? Certainly not. His actions most certainly got the vast majority of his squad, and himself, killed. But that could depend on you Shepard's morality. He would have little to fear from my Shep, a pronounced anti-cerberus commando with more interest in other races than his own. But, another Shepard, one that supports Cerberus, would be a major problem for the Quarians. It is probable that such a Shepard would have wiped the Quarian squad out were it not for the presence of Shep's former squadmate, Tali. Does this justify Prazza's actions? In my opinion, no, but that is something that can only be answered by your own personal morality.
Does getting himself and his squad (and probably friends) killed justify the risk that Shepard could have been a threat? To him, all the evidence pointed towards Shepard being a threat, so I personally don't blame him.