355 réponses à ce sujet

[Liec]

Foolishly foolish fool with foolishly foolish fool ideas of foolish tomfoolery.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

"I dun trust Cerberus!"

"Prazza, you'll follow my orders"

"Yes ma'am..."

*Later*

"That damn fool Prazza went on ahead to try to get to Veetor first! His squad got mown down by the heavy mech!"

Not only did he directly disobey his CO, but he got him and his entire team killed.

Pretty much this.

[PMC65]

I keep seeing people say that he wasn't a hero because he died, because his people died and because it changed nothing. Then my mind turns to the events of 9/11 and a lot of citizens and first responders died that day. With this criteria being used they were not heroes. After all, they changed nothing ... the towers fell and people died.

A hero can be someone who does a courageous act ... did Prazza do a courageous act? He saw that Cerberus was about to go after Veetor, a quarian known for being unstable, and his commanding officer was agreeing to working with them. Yes, Tali knew Shepard and felt that she could trust him/her ... but Prazza at that point doubted her decision. So he broke rank and tried to get to Veetor before them. Whether or not it worked, whether or not his group lived was it a courageous act?

And hero and fool can co-exist ... there have been people who were fools momentarily which resulted in an act of heroism. One man who saved a family from a burning house by entering it multiple times and risking his life in the process to get them and carry them out said afterward of his actions, "I don't know what came over me ... had I thought about it I would never had went into that house." It was a foolish act that was also heroic.

As to Tali ... that is for another thread since the focus is on Prazza.

But that is just my opinion, don't go spreading it around.

Hero: A person, typically a man, who is admired for courage or noble qualities.

Fool: A person who acts unwisely or imprudently

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Only success makes a hero?

Suicide attacking a heavy mech, disobeying orders, having your team killed, and doing nothing beneficial at all makes you a hero?

[Spoiledrotten]

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

"I dun trust Cerberus!"

"Prazza, you'll follow my orders"

"Yes ma'am..."

*Later*

"That damn fool Prazza went on ahead to try to get to Veetor first! His squad got mown down by the heavy mech!"

Not only did he directly disobey his CO, but he got him and his entire team killed.

Pretty much this.

They weren't his team though. They were Tali's. And yet they chose to follow him.

If I were given a choice between rushing in somewhere or working with a terrorist organization with a vendetta against my people and a dead guy, I'd go with rushing in... Well, I'd probably go with play along, backstab if they don't cooperate and accuse Tali of weakness and treason, but hey, he was in a game. As we already know, choices in games are limited.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Spoiledrotten wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

"I dun trust Cerberus!"

"Prazza, you'll follow my orders"

"Yes ma'am..."

*Later*

"That damn fool Prazza went on ahead to try to get to Veetor first! His squad got mown down by the heavy mech!"

Not only did he directly disobey his CO, but he got him and his entire team killed.

Pretty much this.

They weren't his team though. They were Tali's. And yet they chose to follow him.

If I were given a choice between rushing in somewhere or working with a terrorist organization with a vendetta against my people and a dead guy, I'd go with rushing in... Well, I'd probably go with play along, backstab if they don't cooperate and accuse Tali of weakness and treason, but hey, he was in a game. As we already know, choices in games are limited.

If Shepard and his squad showed hostility, it'd be understandable. However, they make it clear they aren't there to fight them.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Suicide attacking a heavy mech,

When did he do that?

At the end of the mission.

Kaiser_Whilhelm wrote...

disobeying orders,

So do you thi- wait, are you German? Ah, now it makes sense.

Disobeying orders without any good reason.

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

having your team killed,

Archangel was no hero either, eh?

He did positive things, he didn't just complain about Cerberus then charge a mech.

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

and doing nothing beneficial at all makes you a hero?

That's just sad. Think of all the people who tried and failed throughout history. Are none of them heroes?

Prazza wasn't even doing anything heroic. He led a squad which was immediately killed when he could've stayed with the others.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:33 .

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I think it is more likely he was ambushed by the mech, not that he deliberately lead his team on a suicide mission. Though if you're going to blame anyone for that it would be... Shepard. He was riding around the galaxy purposefully recruiting people to die on the Suicide Mission, after all. He didn't exactly lead them in prepared either. Thank goodness the Normandy crash-landed without killing everybody on board and was able to take off again.

I would also say that Cerberus, who are enemies of the Migrant Fleet and galactic outlaws is a good enough reason to disobey the orders of your love-struck, pampered, inexperienced, commanding officer.

Except one can prepare entirely for the suicide mission, meaning it isn't set that Shepard just blindly rushes into the Omega-4 Relay. Plus, he's doing it to stop an invasion of machines that can wipe out the entire galaxy, not save a post-traumatic stressed Quarian. Plus, Shepard and Tali make it clear they're there to investigate disappearing humans, not fight.

Trying to rescue a vulnerable young man from known terrorists and enemies isn't heroic?

Cerberus wasn't there to capture Veetor, and obviously, Tali was right that they should've stayed with Shepard. Prazza likely planned to turn on Tali and Shepard's squad after they found Veetor, making him an unprovoked traitor.

[Spartanburger]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Spartanburger wrote...

Now is Prazza a hero? Certainly not. His actions most certainly got the vast majority of his squad, and himself, killed.

Only success makes a hero?

No. Reality and Reason and the actions taken make the hero.

If Shepard was a threat then I would call him a hero. Was Shepard a threat? Depends on the morality of the player.

It seems that Prazza confused Shepard to be the primary threat, and in doing so stumbled blindly into the real threat of the heavy Mech.

If Prazza did not 'betray' Tali's command, it is likely that more lives would have been saved as the Quarian squad would not have rushed ahead and would instead have fulfilled a combat purpose that they are probably very adept at: support, where as Shepard's squad would have been the heavy-hitting force. The two squads working together would have been much more effective in combat than each one on their own.

Prazza attempted to stop a possible future danger to his squad and/or Veetor. In doing so he was ill-prepared for the current danger of the mechs. In my opinion, it would have been smarter to work with Shep until the current danger is dealt with and then deal with the possible danger of Shepard himself.

But we must also consider perspective. From his own perspective he is no doubt a hero. Regardless of the fact that he died, he attempted to dissolve a possible threat to his people and his friends.
What makes him not so much of a hero is that he lacked all the information available.
It's basic mathematics. You cannot create a model for a function if a critical part of the data is missing.
Same here. Prazza acted when he believed he had all the data when in fact he did not. Could he have known that? Probably not.

Part of what defines a hero in my eyes has to be tackling a situation with a great deal of smarts. Prazza reacted. He came to a conclusion and acted on it without thinking of the alternative possibilities. In this way he is not a hero in my eyes. This is not necessarily his fault though. It is a basic Organic reaction.

Now were he to realize shortly before his death the mistake he made in assuming that Shepard (given a more paragon Shepard morality) was a threat when in fact he was not, then he would fit what I would call the Tragic Hero.

In short, I don't think he is a hero, but he is close. I feel pity for him; I would have enjoyed talking to him afterwards on FP and/or on the Flotilla if he survived.

[Spoiledrotten]

If Shepard and his squad showed hostility, it'd be understandable. However, they make it clear they aren't there to fight them.

Assuming hostility from a human supremacy terrorist organization who already screwed your people over once isn't stupid. At all.

So do you thi- wait, are you German? Ah, now it makes sense.

Low blow. But funny.

I keep seeing people say that he wasn't a hero because he died, because his people died and because it changed nothing. Then my mind turns to the events of 9/11 and a lot of citizens and first responders died that day. With this criteria being used they were not heroes. After all, they changed nothing ... the towers fell and people died.

Alright, I take it back, he is a hero. Or rather, his intent was heroic, which is almost as good.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So Shepard and Cerberus should just be taken at their word? Do you trust everyone this easily?

Their squadleader did, therefore they should, especially since Shepard's squad showed absolutely no signs of being threatening.

Umm... yeah they were.

Depends on morality. Shepard's squad was there to investigate disappearing colonists, and the most they took was Veetor's omnitool to gain information on the Collectors. They let Veetor peacefully return and returned the omnitool.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:48 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Plus, Shepard and Tali make it clear they're there to investigate disappearing humans, not fight.

So Shepard and Cerberus should just be taken at their word? Do you trust everyone this easily?

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Cerberus wasn't there to capture Veetor...

Umm... yeah they were.

1. They showed a whopping 0 signs of being hostile. Miranda even says "We're well within our rights to invesitgate a human colony.

2. No they weren't.

[Spoiledrotten]

No they weren't.

"Grab the quarian and let's go."

It's true that that's not what they came for originally, but it is what both Miranda and Jacob wanted to do once they found out about him.

[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

Suicide attacking a heavy mech,

When did he do that?

Kaiser_Whilhelm wrote...

disobeying orders,

So do you thi- wait, are you German? Ah, now it makes sense.

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

having your team killed,

Archangel was no hero either, eh?

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...

and doing nothing beneficial at all makes you a hero?

That's just sad. Think of all the people who tried and failed throughout history. Are none of them heroes?

#3: Because Garrus knew Sidonis planned to lure him away from his base and get his team killed.

#4: Those people who tried and failed throughout history tended to be doing what they did for the right reasons. Prazza was just retarded.

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

Spoiledrotten wrote...

No they weren't.

"Grab the quarian and let's go."

It's true that that's not what they came for originally, but it is what both Miranda and Jacob wanted to do once they found out about him.

After Prazza had already gotten himself and his squad killed before he had any idea they wanted to capture him.

Saphra Deden wrote...

No it doesn't. Cerberus is there for him (figuratively) regardless. Once again, Prazza doesn't know your morality. He doesn't know you. He only knows the people you surround yourself with and those people are bad. If you hang around with criminals expect to be treated like one.

Cerberus didn't even know about him until Tali told them. How could they have come for him if they didn't know he was there or even who he was?

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:55 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Spoiledrotten wrote...

No they weren't.

"Grab the quarian and let's go."

It's true that that's not what they came for originally, but it is what both Miranda and Jacob wanted to do once they found out about him.

Only Miranda. IIRC, Jacob doesn't say anything.

And even then, all they were doing was extracting information, it wasn't like they were kidnapping him.

[Spartanburger]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Spartanburger wrote...

If Shepard was a threat then I would call him a hero. Was Shepard a threat? Depends on the morality of the player.

Well how is Prazza supposed to know that? He does know that Cerberus is a threat and your Shepard is with them. Is that enough?

Easy enough to judge people's intentions just by watching and listening to them. It's worked a good 80% of the time for me in real life.
Plus, the Quarians should be superb at reading a body's actions and movements for motivation seeing as they as a culture cannot rely on their face emotions.

But, assuming that Shepard is an expert at concealing his intention (only really likely for those trained in infiltration and assassination), he would have had very little to go on.

That does not make him a hero. That only makes his intentions heroic.

Not a bad thing though. Heroic intentions are still rather good. It just doesn't make him a hero unless there actually was a threat, regardless of whether or not he could have known about it.